Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Boco]
#6743746
01/25/20 11:36 AM
01/25/20 11:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,723 Maine
Mac
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,723
Maine
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Here is my bait. Here is my study Now there you go. Natural and effective
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Teacher]
#6744011
01/25/20 04:35 PM
01/25/20 04:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,174 Rochester, MN
Teacher
OP
trapper
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OP
trapper
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,174
Rochester, MN
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I just wish there was less hype and more basic truth out there. Less “fake news” and more fact—. Testing by excellent trappers or overseen by excellent trappers, not by people who are selling lures or baits
Never too old to learn
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Teacher]
#6744071
01/25/20 05:09 PM
01/25/20 05:09 PM
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10,912 SW Georgia
Wanna Be
trapper
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trapper
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10,912
SW Georgia
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Just a newbies perspective, but the issue I see with baits are they work for whoever develops them at their particular locations they trap. I’ve had a little luck with most of the commercial baits I’ve bought from all over the country. Some work better than others, those are the ones I pay attention to.
The other main issue is coyotes seem to get used to commercial baits. So what worked last year may not work this year.
I’m looking at and experimenting with natural baits this year. Some of it sucks for freezer space but the other that’s producing is easily bought and readily available. But then again, what works down here may be totally useless in other climates/environments.
I’m still learning, but baits seem less important than urine. A good quality urine and leftover dove/quail parts has produced quite well for cats, fox, coyotes down here this year. And this is just down basic dirt holes. But I have found what I believe is some good quality urine.
For Pipes, Cavens and Reusaats baits are producing.
I know there’s times they say that only gland lures will work, but even then a coyote has to eat. He may not stop when he first encounters the set, but trail cam photos show they remember or pay attention. Bypass a set one day and come straight to it 3 days later. Not stop and check it out, come straight to it.
Like I said, I’m still new to this, but I got tired of trying to find the “magical” commercial bait that pulls them in from miles around, so after watching dogs retrieve dove/quail/waterfowl that sometimes seemed impossible to find, I realized that just might work for coyotes/fox/cats...and it does. May not work for you, but doing pretty good for a cheap natural bait.
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Teacher]
#6744136
01/25/20 06:42 PM
01/25/20 06:42 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,503 james bay frontierOnt.
Boco
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,503
james bay frontierOnt.
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From my perspective bait works best in winter when animals are hungry and they need more calories to keep their body temps up. Commercial lure has its place,I use it for trapping beaver early.Bait also works for beaver especially under ice. Urine for canines is in my opinion very similar to castor for beaver.It will get them to go where you want them.It is a"calling card"or territorial marker like castor is for beaver. Small spoonfuls of bait doesn't have much calling power like a big bait does in winter,in this case commercial lure is the call and the little bit of bait in the hole gets the animal into the trap. Same for fisher or marten.I don't use scent lure for marten,I use a large bait 20 feet or so from the sets(I stockpile beaver carcasses from the fall for this).This large bait is my lure and a smaller chunk in the box to get the animal into the trap.Using a large bait as lure keeps the animals in the vicinity of your sets longer,and also keeps animals close and they will return until the bait is consumed or gone giving you lots of opportunity to connect with multiple animals.A large bait like a beaver carcass in winter will be consumed in a couple of days if on the ground or may also be dragged away which you don't want.Lots of birds and animals will visit,this being a great call in itself.In order to make the bait last longer you need to either cover it or suspend it,or both.Suspended or covered it can last for 3 weeks or more.But it has to be able to be somewhat acessable for the animals to feed on,so don't hang it too high.In the north country a beaver carcass is often wired to a tree trunk and a cubby built around it.Normally sets made at the large bait will catch non targets so snares or blind sets are made in trails away from the large bait and no sets are made at the large bait. Some trappers claim to have good luck with commercial lure to call marten and a small chunk of bait does the rest. A large bait is not the same as a jackpot where a couple hundred pounds of bait is used. These methods are for northern areas I believe you would need some sort of dried large bait for it to work in warmer climates. Maybe flatten a few gutted beaver carcasses and dry them like jerky.
Last edited by Boco; 01/25/20 06:48 PM.
Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Boco]
#6744156
01/25/20 07:05 PM
01/25/20 07:05 PM
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10,912 SW Georgia
Wanna Be
trapper
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trapper
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10,912
SW Georgia
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From my perspective bait works best in winter when animals are hungry and they need more calories to keep their body temps up. Commercial lure has its place,I use it for trapping beaver early.Bait also works for beaver especially under ice. Urine for canines is in my opinion very similar to castor for beaver.It will get them to go where you want them.It is a"calling card"or territorial marker like castor is for beaver. Small spoonfuls of bait doesn't have much calling power like a big bait does in winter,in this case commercial lure is the call and the little bit of bait in the hole gets the animal into the trap. Same for fisher or marten.I don't use scent lure for marten,I use a large bait 20 feet or so from the sets(I stockpile beaver carcasses from the fall for this).This large bait is my lure and a smaller chunk in the box to get the animal into the trap.Using a large bait as lure keeps the animals in the vicinity of your sets longer,and also keeps animals close and they will return until the bait is consumed or gone giving you lots of opportunity to connect with multiple animals.A large bait like a beaver carcass in winter will be consumed in a couple of days if on the ground or may also be dragged away which you don't want.Lots of birds and animals will visit,this being a great call in itself.In order to make the bait last longer you need to either cover it or suspend it,or both.Suspended or covered it can last for 3 weeks or more.But it has to be able to be somewhat acessable for the animals to feed on,so don't hang it too high.In the north country a beaver carcass is often wired to a tree trunk and a cubby built around it.Normally sets made at the large bait will catch non targets so snares or blind sets are made in trails away from the large bait and no sets are made at the large bait. Some trappers claim to have good luck with commercial lure to call marten and a small chunk of bait does the rest. A large bait is not the same as a jackpot where a couple hundred pounds of bait is used. These methods are for northern areas I believe you would need some sort of dried large bait for it to work in warmer climates. Maybe flatten a few gutted beaver carcasses and dry them like jerky. I could be wrong, but I don’t think bait piles could be used down here unless kept covered during the day and covering removed at night. We have way too many buzzards. I even have to be careful about covering blood left behind from dispatches. Buzzards will be all over a blood pile near a set. Sometimes it’s hard to cover it all when remaking a set in the dark, lol. Blood doesn’t seem to bother other critters though. Hopefully some Southern trappers will offer their input or experience. It’s something I’ve always wanted to try, but seems I’d be releasing more unwanted catches and remaking sets every evening.
Last edited by Wanna Be; 01/25/20 07:09 PM.
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Teacher]
#6744326
01/25/20 08:19 PM
01/25/20 08:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,503 james bay frontierOnt.
Boco
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,503
james bay frontierOnt.
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Read it again-we have buzzards here too -ravens.Why you have to suspend and cover the bait.And don't set the big bait.-trails or small baited sets 20 feet or so from the attractor. But like I said you would have to dry it to jerky for warm weather. But if your animals aren't hungry there then blind setting would be more productive.
Last edited by Boco; 01/25/20 08:20 PM.
Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Teacher]
#6744559
01/25/20 11:23 PM
01/25/20 11:23 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,174 Rochester, MN
Teacher
OP
trapper
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OP
trapper
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,174
Rochester, MN
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I’m not looking for the perfect bait. It probably doesn’t exist. I’m just looking for honesty in advertising.
Why doesn’t something that worked last year, work this year? Off-gassing of the ingredients may be one reason. The “ingredients” in the form of contaminants we introduced every time we put a stick in it, might be another. Maybe it’s a slight variation in the compounding of the lure or bait by the manufacturer. Maybe it’s what your competition is using is turning them on and yours is turning them off.
Testing spring, summer, fall and winter might require you to buy 1/2-1 gallon of one bait. This is so you’d have enough to carry you through a trapping season. If I’m going to do meaningful tests, it means having enough quantity and that means spending hundreds of dollars to see what doesn’t work as well as what does for 3 or 4 baits a year.
You see where this is going. It would be nice if there was honesty instead of hype in our market place. That manufacturers would have done some testing rather than having us, their customers, do the testing they should have done.
Last edited by Teacher; 01/25/20 11:27 PM. Reason: Punctuation.
Never too old to learn
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Teacher]
#6744696
01/26/20 02:54 AM
01/26/20 02:54 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368 Central MN
MNCedar
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368
Central MN
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The other main issue is coyotes seem to get used to commercial baits. So what worked last year may not work this year.
Like I said, I’m still new to this, but I got tired of trying to find the “magical” commercial bait that pulls them in from miles around
Are you saying that a coyote could somehow recognize a smell a year later and refuse a set as a result? If so then I respectfully, but very strongly, disagree. I'm no expert and I'm not trying to sound like one. Just something to think about...make a set that is so on location and has enough eye appeal or attractor that the smell just finishes the deal. That has helped me. It would be nice if there was honesty instead of hype in our market place.
I think it is human nature in a consumer-based society that when people get frustrated, they tend to throw the checkbook at the problem. A lack of understanding regarding location or mechanics is easily compensated for by buying "better" lure or "switching" baits. Surely, says the frustrated trapper, that coyote didn't commit because it "didn't like the bait" and had nothing to do with the fact that the set was over-guided and completely stupid looking. It is far harder for a person to admit that the problem is perhaps themselves, and this is a realization that is not easily remedied. (I know from experience!) On that note, I think the contaminated trap/foreign smelling dirt/"they're just not hungry" clauses are far overused as well. There again, it is easier to blame and attempt to fix a granule of lure on a trap jaw than it is for the trapper to admit that it took him 25 minutes to make one horrible set. I'd almost bet that most of the posts on here about problematic coyote trapping can be blamed on poor location, poor set construction, or spending too much time at an area. When those three things are on point, I don't think it matters one bit what scent is by the trap. A lot of the no name, gimmicky lure sellers out there are prime examples of taking advantage of this. That is the hype you're referring too. I'm not referring to the names that have been in the industry forever, those guys/families have done more for trapping and trappers than they will ever be properly thanked for. Those lure-makers, generally speaking, make products that do produce year in and year out. I am eternally grateful to them.The same cannot be said for the names that show up for a couple years and then disappear again. I'm not some pro, but I like to rant. Especially about trapping stuff!
Last edited by MNCedar; 01/26/20 02:57 AM.
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Teacher]
#6744701
01/26/20 03:30 AM
01/26/20 03:30 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,174 Rochester, MN
Teacher
OP
trapper
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OP
trapper
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,174
Rochester, MN
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MnCedar, you make an interesting point about an animal not committing. At last year’s Newt Sterling, Ron Jones and Morgan Bennett snaring school one guy brought up about coyotes not willing to commit. This guy has pretty good catches year in and year out. He said a bait was a failure if coyotes wouldn’t commit by stepping into the pattern.
Newt and company emphasized that animals will tell you where they can be caught. In this case, the trapper said yotes would stand back about 16 inches. Jones said the bait wasn’t a failure and steered us to understand those coyotes were telling him to move his traps back to 16-inches instead of 9-inches from hole to pan. Like the trapper who was discussing the bait failure, I initially felt it was a failure too. But listening and finally understanding the coyotes consistently hung up at about 16-inches was telling the trapper to move his trap back and he’d probably catch them. It wasn’t a bad bait at all.
This was an interesting lesson and one I observed this last fall with pipe dream sets. Some of my traps were fairly close to the pipe. I could actually see tracks in the mud where coyotes were stepping another 2 or 3 inches back from the trap. They were showing me where they could be caught. The next sets were a couple inches further away and it worked much better. Close in csught red fox and very large coon. Further out took coyotes.
I have some baits and lures I’ve found to be very attractive to big coon, fox and coyotes. One in the same, actually. Since these work, I’ll stick with them until I find they don’t work as well as I want.
Never too old to learn
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: MNCedar]
#6745118
01/26/20 11:43 AM
01/26/20 11:43 AM
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10,912 SW Georgia
Wanna Be
trapper
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trapper
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10,912
SW Georgia
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The other main issue is coyotes seem to get used to commercial baits. So what worked last year may not work this year.
Like I said, I’m still new to this, but I got tired of trying to find the “magical” commercial bait that pulls them in from miles around
Are you saying that a coyote could somehow recognize a smell a year later and refuse a set as a result? If so then I respectfully, but very strongly, disagree. I'm no expert and I'm not trying to sound like one. Just something to think about...make a set that is so on location and has enough eye appeal or attractor that the smell just finishes the deal. That has helped me. It would be nice if there was honesty instead of hype in our market place.
I think it is human nature in a consumer-based society that when people get frustrated, they tend to throw the checkbook at the problem. A lack of understanding regarding location or mechanics is easily compensated for by buying "better" lure or "switching" baits. Surely, says the frustrated trapper, that coyote didn't commit because it "didn't like the bait" and had nothing to do with the fact that the set was over-guided and completely stupid looking. It is far harder for a person to admit that the problem is perhaps themselves, and this is a realization that is not easily remedied. (I know from experience!) On that note, I think the contaminated trap/foreign smelling dirt/"they're just not hungry" clauses are far overused as well. There again, it is easier to blame and attempt to fix a granule of lure on a trap jaw than it is for the trapper to admit that it took him 25 minutes to make one horrible set. I'd almost bet that most of the posts on here about problematic coyote trapping can be blamed on poor location, poor set construction, or spending too much time at an area. When those three things are on point, I don't think it matters one bit what scent is by the trap. A lot of the no name, gimmicky lure sellers out there are prime examples of taking advantage of this. That is the hype you're referring too. I'm not referring to the names that have been in the industry forever, those guys/families have done more for trapping and trappers than they will ever be properly thanked for. Those lure-makers, generally speaking, make products that do produce year in and year out. I am eternally grateful to them.The same cannot be said for the names that show up for a couple years and then disappear again. I'm not some pro, but I like to rant. Especially about trapping stuff! So you use the same bait year after year on the same property and catch critters? If so, please tell me what bait that is, I’ll buy it and try it. For me what worked one year didn’t work the next. I’m using more natural baits this year and catching more critters than any year prior. A good quality urine seems to help the most.
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Teacher]
#6745127
01/26/20 11:55 AM
01/26/20 11:55 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368 Central MN
MNCedar
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368
Central MN
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Absolutely I do.
It's not some magic thing either. Once you find a couple scents that work, why move away from them?
Last edited by MNCedar; 01/26/20 12:11 PM.
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Teacher]
#6745133
01/26/20 12:03 PM
01/26/20 12:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368 Central MN
MNCedar
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368
Central MN
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MnCedar, you make an interesting point about an animal not committing. At last year’s Newt Sterling, Ron Jones and Morgan Bennett snaring school one guy brought up about coyotes not willing to commit. This guy has pretty good catches year in and year out. He said a bait was a failure if coyotes wouldn’t commit by stepping into the pattern.
Newt and company emphasized that animals will tell you where they can be caught. In this case, the trapper said yotes would stand back about 16 inches. Jones said the bait wasn’t a failure and steered us to understand those coyotes were telling him to move his traps back to 16-inches instead of 9-inches from hole to pan. Like the trapper who was discussing the bait failure, I initially felt it was a failure too. But listening and finally understanding the coyotes consistently hung up at about 16-inches was telling the trapper to move his trap back and he’d probably catch them. It wasn’t a bad bait at all.
This was an interesting lesson and one I observed this last fall with pipe dream sets. Some of my traps were fairly close to the pipe. I could actually see tracks in the mud where coyotes were stepping another 2 or 3 inches back from the trap. They were showing me where they could be caught. The next sets were a couple inches further away and it worked much better. Close in csught red fox and very large coon. Further out took coyotes.
I have some baits and lures I’ve found to be very attractive to big coon, fox and coyotes. One in the same, actually. Since these work, I’ll stick with them until I find they don’t work as well as I want. I mentioned this earlier, but have you read Slim's Problem and Solutions books? One in particular, maybe the second one, he really makes some great observations on lure making and marketing.
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Teacher]
#6745207
01/26/20 01:22 PM
01/26/20 01:22 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,619 Nebraska
WadeRyan
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,619
Nebraska
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I think too much emphasis is placed on the best lure or bait. People forget the simplicity of catching the animals. I'm glad to see you bring up the "claims," by certain untouchables. It is what it is but their bait/lure is no better than the next guys. I think most commercial baits out there will catch animals and I don't really see that much of a difference with any out producing others. I have played over the years with animals and their responses to lures/baits. It definitely is eye opening I never did it personally to see if one worked better than another more so to watch them work. I usually rotate baits every year just to say I did it. I can't say I've found one that the animals liked more than the other. I suspect, although I am not a professional coyote trapper catching the last coyote after eight guys prior having been there like some experts, when trappers have less luck using a certain scent/bait over another the real issue is the coyote they hoped to catch simply was not there.
Commercial baits are easy for me because I am busy and don't have a lot of time to prepare things myself. Buy a gallon, throw it down a hole with some quality urine and call it a day. I do find myself moving towards natural baits every year. Look at the guy that's going to come real close to 1000 coyotes this fur season. He still appears to be using muskrat quarters and urine...No one told the last couple hundred coyotes he's caught that it's breeding season and he should be throwing down gland lure and urine. I don't know how muskrats would do here...we have very few of them but I suspect they'd catch like anything else.
I have ran straight mice which really I haven't found anything here that won't eat it. No taint just straight preserved. We have an abundance of rabbits here. One of these days I'm going to go out and get enough to make a gallon of bait...it is a staple of our predator base here. You see them exploded all over the country side...yet I've never ran them for bait. Deer meat is another bait that would be very natural to our coyotes that I just have not messed with. Straight bacon grease is a killer here. Literally don't need anything else with it...coyotes get really used to eating pigs off dead piles here.....I add glycerine to keep it from forming into a straight lard. I guess the point is I think people over think bait and lure. Unless they're selling it of course. Which I understand.
Last edited by WadeRyan; 01/26/20 01:35 PM.
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Re: Bait testing studies
[Re: Wanna Be]
#6745209
01/26/20 01:25 PM
01/26/20 01:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368 Central MN
MNCedar
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 368
Central MN
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What’s your bait of choice? Yeah right. This entire thread is about the nuances of scent testing. But okay, I'll play. My bait of choice is location. My second choice would be fresh dirt. Add an industry proven bait (any of the ones that have been around for longer than I have been alive) and a trapper would be hard pressed to not be successful. The number one thing I learned on this site over a decade ago is the importance of streamlining and having a system. Ill be eternally grateful for that!
Last edited by MNCedar; 01/26/20 01:29 PM.
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