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Re: Love your enemies? [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6761171
02/06/20 10:51 PM
02/06/20 10:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,358
Arkansas
J
J Staton Offline
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Arkansas
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by Yes sir
Hobbie
You will have to be more specific, I've not encountered any yet.


I’ll start with an easy one.

Luke 23-32-43

32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[b] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”

38 There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the jews.

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[c]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Matthew 27- 38-44

38 Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

No contradiction at all. Matthew was just hard of hearing.


Romans 8: 38-39
Re: Love your enemies? [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6761172
02/06/20 10:52 PM
02/06/20 10:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,981
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
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Yes sir  Offline
trapper
Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,981
Marion Kansas
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by Yes sir
Hobbie
You will have to be more specific, I've not encountered any yet.


I’ll start with an easy one.

Luke 23-32-43

32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[b] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”

38 There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the jews.

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[c]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Matthew 27- 38-44

38 Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

I believe its quite probable that at the beginning of the Crucifixion both men mocked Jesus but after seeing Jesus's response to his tormentors one realized who Jesus was and repented of his sin. Both accounts can be true there for not contradicting each other. You are assuming both accounts report the complete accounts of the Crucifixion but rather they only testify about part of what took place.

Re: Love your enemies? [Re: loosegoose] #6761173
02/06/20 10:53 PM
02/06/20 10:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 12,288
OH
Catch22 Online content
trapper
Catch22  Online Content
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Posts: 12,288
OH
Also you have to take in account the times and what was going on for understanding. It was when Nero was going all wacko, The great persecution. Peter was telling Christians that when they are down and out is when Satan likes to pounce.


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: Love your enemies? [Re: James] #6761176
02/06/20 10:55 PM
02/06/20 10:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 28,892
McGrath, AK
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white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 28,892
McGrath, AK
Originally Posted by James
"In those days, in the Jewish culture, there was an insult where you would smack someone."

PASkinner, are you saying the New Testament applied only to its time and place? You are saying that the plain meaning of the text should be ignored, in favor of an interpretation based on Jewish culture of 2,000 years ago? Sort of like arguing the plain meaning of the Second Amendment doesn't apply, that we should look at the original intent to allow muskets, not ARs.

If you want Jesus' words to apply to our time and place, you can't make the argument you're making. (But it is comforting to know I can slap my slaves without being fined or jailed!)

"Mistranslation of Matthew 5:39 has created a theological contradiction. But, when this saying is understood Hebraically, rather than contradict, it harmonizes beautifully with the rest of Scripture. Our response to evil has to be resistance! It is morally wrong to tolerate evil. Our response to a “hot-headed” neighbor, on the other hand, must be entirely different. His anger will only be temporary if we respond in a biblical manner:"

There you go again, with the original Hebraic intent. Doesn't any part of this Bible apply to 21st century America? If not, whom do we trust to translate it for us?

Your argument that we should not tolerate evil, an attack by a murderer or enemy in wartime, makes sense--as a survival doctrine. I don't see how you can square that doctrine with Jesus' teachings because it's so easy to define "evil" as being any force that opposes your own wishes.

I think Jesus meant what he said. He said many controversial, revolutionary things. They are controversial now, just as in His own time.

I don't see how you can say you follow Jesus, while reserving the right to define "evil" for yourself--anyone who disagrees with you on a political issue is bad, and therefore deserving of slaps. That's certainly the attitude of some who post here.

Jim


It is wrong to tolerate evil, whether one believes the Bible or not


Mean As Nails
Re: Love your enemies? [Re: loosegoose] #6761177
02/06/20 10:58 PM
02/06/20 10:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,121
Anchorage, Alaska
J
James Offline
"Minka"
James  Offline
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Anchorage, Alaska
Who defines "evil"? If you say the individual decides it for themself, then what about the sociopath?

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001
Re: Love your enemies? [Re: loosegoose] #6761178
02/06/20 10:58 PM
02/06/20 10:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 593
MN, USA
star flakes Offline
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MN, USA
Originally Posted by loosegoose
In Matthew 5, Jesus told us to love our enemies and pray for them. He explained that even pagans love those who love them, and great their own, so if we as Christians only so that we're not doing anything more than what the pagans do. This morning at the national prayer breakfast, Aurthur Brooks gave a speech about loving your enemy, something that's important to not forget in this time of high strung politics. After he spoke, trump got up and at the beginning of his speech, chuckled and said he didn't agree with Aurthur, implying that he didn't believe it's necessary to love one's enemies. So, without devolving into a pro-trump/anti-trump political debate, do you think we should follow the words of Jesus and love our enemies, including our political enemies? And what exactly does that look like?


Loving your enemies, also includes capitalizing Trump and addressing him as President Trump, as you capitalized Jesus and Arthur Brooks.

If you are sincerely interested in following the teachings of Jesus the Christ, then learn what it means to love your enemies,to forgive your enemies, and to pray for those who spitefully use you.

To love is not to accept that which is evil, but to shine the light of prayer on your enemies and forgive them. Forgiveness again is not condoning evil, but forgiveness hands your enemies over to God to avenge you for the wrongs they have done. For a Christian, the path to repentance is excruciating in the emotional turmoil. What Christ teaches is to bring evil people before God, turn them over to God, for God to deal with them, in all their hypocrisy, troubling them day and night. God states He will give no rest to the wicked.

The reality of loving your enemies, is not being degraded in doing things which will harm you and most likely be illegal in revenge, but trusting God to deal with people who are at war with His Way and Will. God's Love also involves fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, rather than leave people who will never repent to degrade further. There are far too many ignorant people judging others when they are ignorant of what the Bible teaches a Christian to live by.

Re: Love your enemies? [Re: Catch22] #6761182
02/06/20 11:17 PM
02/06/20 11:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 30,243
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline
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Originally Posted by Catch22
Yes, and it doesn't matter, his fate to eternity in the lake of fire had been sealed, that's my opinion anyway.

Amen!


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Love your enemies? [Re: loosegoose] #6761186
02/06/20 11:22 PM
02/06/20 11:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,981
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
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Revelations 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of this prophecy of this book; if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book and If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophesy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city which are described in this book

Re: Love your enemies? [Re: James] #6761188
02/06/20 11:25 PM
02/06/20 11:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,981
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
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Originally Posted by James
Who defines "evil"? If you say the individual decides it for themself, then what about the sociopath?

Jim

I agree. If man defines morals then the left is right in that there is no truth.

Re: Love your enemies? [Re: Yes sir] #6761206
02/06/20 11:37 PM
02/06/20 11:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 17
N Central Kansas
Z
ZionHeritageFarm Offline
trapper
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N Central Kansas
Originally Posted by Yes sir
Originally Posted by danny clifton
and according to your bible those beloved children get set on fire if they dont believe the bible is truth. if setting your kids on fire for disobeying you is your idea of love then i guess my answer is right in line with loving your enemies?


For me to even attempt to give an explanation of the consequences of the rejection of Jesus's atonement would take pages and I'm a poor typist. You have to have a good grasp of the whole picture and then we still dont have the mental understanding to see it through the perfection of our creator. Remember God is perfection in the full realm of the meaning which also means he has to be a just God. Justice is part of perfection, then throw in free will that he gives us and it gets into some deep water. When he gave us the glory of free will it also came with consequences.


That is very true. And by His righteousness justice must be served. But He loved mankind enough to offer an atonement, a gift. It is each individuals CHOICE to accept the redemptive gift or not. He doesn’t force anyone to. It is of their free will to decide which eternal path they want as by our sin nature we all deserve eternal separation from the Holy Father. It isn’t based upon what is done in their lives. As the Bible clearly says that all fall short, but because of a deep love, what was done for us on the cross of Calvary, our debt can be paid. The sad part is that whether a person chooses to believe it or not, it is what is, and if they wait to be face to face with the Holy Creator it is too late, as it is the one sin that cannot be forgiven. That is why it takes faith, believing without seeing. The question then becomes why would a loving Father send His only son to die, and then let those that turn their back on His sacrifice still receive forgiveness... that would not be just.


From Zion, perfect in beauty, God shines forth. Psalms 50:2
Re: Love your enemies? [Re: loosegoose] #6761223
02/07/20 12:12 AM
02/07/20 12:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 12,083
North East Kansas
Marty Offline
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I do not love my enemies.


High Speed/Low Drag...
Re: Love your enemies? [Re: Law Dog] #6761238
02/07/20 12:38 AM
02/07/20 12:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,058
Finally Run to ground in TN
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Finally Run to ground in TN
Originally Posted by Law Dog
Get off of my lawn!


Yep that about sums it up for me as well


I do all my own stunts ..... but never intentionally
Re: Love your enemies? [Re: J Staton] #6761288
02/07/20 05:52 AM
02/07/20 05:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,586
Southeast Ohio
amspoker Offline
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Southeast Ohio
Originally Posted by J Staton

Why is it better to pluck out your eye according to Jesus?


Matt 5:29
If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into (Gehenna).

Gehenna is the original word used translated to "he ll".

Gehanna was a trash dump outside of town that was always burning.

If your had committed a sin, sentenced to death, this is were you might end up.

Not a place where you would want to end up.

Gehenna


There several different words translated to he ll. All have different meanings. Some mean simply the grave. Some a trash dump where the dead are taken. Translators were just applying their understanding of the afterlife when they used that word.



The bible is very clear that those who are dead sleep, awaiting a resurrection. All but Christ.

Where was Lazarus the four days he was dead? At the pearly gates playing golf, strumming a harp?

Bet that was a bummer when he had to ride the elevator back down to earth.

The wages of sin is DEATH.. Not perpetual fiery torture.

You could show me several scriptures that could be interpreted as the heaven/he ll understanding.

But you would have to ignore the multiple scriptures that say plainly the dead sleep, awaiting a resurrection.


Levi
Re: Love your enemies? [Re: loosegoose] #6761301
02/07/20 06:28 AM
02/07/20 06:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,451
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
trapper
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williamsburg ks
You would think a creator of universes would have a set of instructions to live by that were plain and easy to comprehend. That those instructions would be the same in every culture. That there would be no riddles or allegory. That there would be no debate, as the proper way to live would not require interpretation. IF there is a creator I don't believe the bible is the instruction manual. People do not even agree on translation let alone what it means.

Every human culture in the world has made up stories to insure loyalty to tribal leaders/shaman, to explain things unknowable, to ease the grief of losing loved ones, and aid people to accept their own mortality.

EVERY religion I am aware of is filled with wild stories of things that happened long ago but do not happen now. Of people so special they escaped horrible deaths, were given great rich's etc. Of monsters and evil spirits that one can only be protected from through ritual and magic.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Love your enemies? [Re: J Staton] #6761312
02/07/20 06:40 AM
02/07/20 06:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 14,019
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by J Staton
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
I’ll start with an easy one.

Luke 23-32-43

32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[b] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

35 The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

36 The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar 37 and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.”

38 There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the jews.

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[c]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Matthew 27- 38-44

38 Two rebels were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. 39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 “He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

No contradiction at all. Matthew was just hard of hearing.


This is an excellent explanation for a man writing a book however in the company of a divine inspired doctrine argument, it lends itself to the exploitation that such lack of attention, to the voice of God, of this magnitude, is permissible.


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Love your enemies? [Re: loosegoose] #6761313
02/07/20 06:42 AM
02/07/20 06:42 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 30,243
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline
trapper
330-Trapper  Offline
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Minnesota
If a Christian is wrong...they've lived a good life . One enjoyed with their faith.

Then at death They are saved, by Grace through Christ.


If a Non believer dies and There Was God and His Son He gave up for salvation...Then the agnostic goes to hades.

Id just rather have those chances.


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Love your enemies? [Re: Yes sir] #6761314
02/07/20 06:44 AM
02/07/20 06:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 14,019
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 14,019
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by Yes sir

I believe its quite probable that at the beginning of the Crucifixion both men mocked Jesus but after seeing Jesus's response to his tormentors one realized who Jesus was and repented of his sin. Both accounts can be true there for not contradicting each other. You are assuming both accounts report the complete accounts of the Crucifixion but rather they only testify about part of what took place.


So just some irrelevant information in the Bible. This is why we need Biblical scholars, to tell us what is relevant and what is not?


"Forgiveness".......because there is no Time Machine.

-Goofy-
Re: Love your enemies? [Re: loosegoose] #6761317
02/07/20 06:51 AM
02/07/20 06:51 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 30,243
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline
trapper
330-Trapper  Offline
trapper

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Posts: 30,243
Minnesota
God gives a believer discernment: "(in Christian contexts) perception in the absence of judgment with a view to obtaining spiritual guidance and understanding." end quote.


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Love your enemies? [Re: loosegoose] #6761322
02/07/20 06:56 AM
02/07/20 06:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,451
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
trapper
danny clifton  Offline
trapper
D

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Posts: 16,451
williamsburg ks
330trapper, as i understand it you have to believe to avoid the big bbq. if your just hedging your bets, is that belief or are you counting on the magic ceremony's?


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Love your enemies? [Re: loosegoose] #6761328
02/07/20 07:04 AM
02/07/20 07:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 30,243
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline
trapper
330-Trapper  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 30,243
Minnesota
No...Faith


True Faith That God Sent His Son for our salvation.

Faith is in the heart not head ( book learning . Faith comes by hearing the Word of God

In this Life there are no perfect people....Christian s inclided

Last edited by 330-Trapper; 02/07/20 07:05 AM.

NRA and NTA Life Member
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