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Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: danny clifton] #6779360
02/22/20 11:01 AM
02/22/20 11:01 AM

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Mark June
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Mark June
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M



Simple answer.
3 words that have never been done before or since.

He is Risen.

Now, if they prove that untrue someday, the Christian faith is null and void. grin

Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: danny clifton] #6779378
02/22/20 11:18 AM
02/22/20 11:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,650
Southeast Ohio
amspoker Offline
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
Why do you call this belief superstition, and christianity divinely inspired truth?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Din%C3%A9_Bahane%CA%BC



For some of us, an ordered, beautiful, complex creation, controlled by laws....makes much more sense than an accident, that resulted in life forming in some primordial soup, resulting the majesty that we call the planet earth.

With exceedingly complex life on it.

Nothing man can create is close to the complexity of a human.

So evolution supposes the ACCIDENTALLY evolved human can't itself make something nearly as complex as itself.

That points to a Creator to me.


Levi
Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: danny clifton] #6779417
02/22/20 12:11 PM
02/22/20 12:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,880
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline OP
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline OP
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Mark you have chosen to believe the resurrection story. Simple as that. No evidence except some stuff written 200 years after it supposedly happened. Yes I know that isnt what is commonly taught but I am certain you are aware that no original texts have been found. There are other accounts that have been found as well but the Catholics did not include these writings in their "bible". A lot of ancient texts are held at the vatican whose contents are not allowed to be public.

Organized christianity has a looooong history of opposing scientific examination and discovery's.

here is an example

http://origins.osu.edu/milestones/f...catholic-church-prohibited-copernicanism


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: ] #6779429
02/22/20 12:40 PM
02/22/20 12:40 PM
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Posts: 4,581
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark June

danny, I might use the word miracle.
I respect your use of the term "evidence" from finite minds on a finite number of subjects. I have a graduate level degree in Biology, hard earned back in the 70's and 80's from universities... 100 years after Charles Darwin, changed the theological landscape for our country, and I remember then asking my professors about how to explain the fact that during our invertebrate research thesis projects we couldn't make the connection of trans-species mutability. Fancy words for; one species changes into another. Darwin never explained that in his theory and it's incomplete without it. You can't have a homo- anything turn into a homo-sapien unless you have one species change into another for reproductive mutability (you can mate and it works out). Same reason a zebra doesn't mate with a frog and make a zerog. My profs just told me to make it work in my project, literally by making up my own theory. Ahhhhh. I hold truth! Sweet! Got a passing grade and a Masters degree outta the deal, so they were right. Make it up and make it work. Got it.

Now, that kind of junk is evidence. Same dudes, just 40 years later. Same thinking. But when I can't prove at a research level, with brilliant minds around the world seeking to find the same answers, using the finest gear tuition funds can purchase, the answer to why one invertebrate is so much more diverse in a span of three generations? That flies in the face of Dr. Darwin and his hocus pocus (that's what we called it) who professed evolution of the strongest and fittest, and our microscopes were discovering things that looked like a creator was at work. Well, it was fun. And I didn't believe in God at the time. That didn't come until much later. I just saw how "evidence" in research was done. Pretty shady and money drives too much to too many conclusions. Now the new game is climate change. Same crowd. Different tactics.

And do not tell some that climate change is not real and that we're all headed for doom cause danny sir, they will tell you that you are believing in magic and they hold the new truth. Yours is outdated.

There is a game changer and it's not actually in any of this discussion.
It's the God-man who waited until all knew he was dead-dead-dead.
And then He rose again.
That's evidence enough for some. Not for all.


Darwin was unable to explain everything, his understanding and theory only laid the foundation on which more evidence has been built. Connections have been made in trans species mutability, we have gathered more fossil evidence and we have the ability to analyze DNA which has led to major strides in understanding evolution.

I have never seen a dead man rise and have seen no evidence it is possible. If you choose to believe that it is based on faith not evidence.

Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: danny clifton] #6779437
02/22/20 12:59 PM
02/22/20 12:59 PM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
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M



We're told here that "Organized christianity has a looooong history of opposing scientific examination and discovery's" per my trapping colleague in the heartland of America.

danny, in the spirit of healthy conversation brother, you're not accurate.

Here is a good link for an organization, The Creation Research Institute, that is now more respected than ever in the field of evolutionary discovery. Been at it for 50 years and they now have a respected seat at all major conferences, complete with presentations. Their more recent research on carbon dating methodology has many in the field assessing and asking major valid questions about carbon dating time tables.

Their magazine link;
https://www.icr.org/aaf

And sorry DonnerS,
There has never been a trans-mutable discovery between two distinct species. Close cousins becoming one, yes. Two distinct. Never.

And to be transparent at my end, I'm not trying to talk anyone into anything. Why would I?
An analogy might be;
When someone calls us murderers for trapping.
I guess I wonder... Why do we trap? To murder animals?
If someone says I'm a murderer of innocent animals, I politely say, "You got the wrong guy." But I don't try to talk them into trapping. They may think I'm trying to do that...."Don't think I'm going to trap, because I would never kill a poor innocent animal like you do," they say.
But I'm just trying to tell 'em I'm not a murderer. smile
Not convert 'em.


Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: danny clifton] #6779442
02/22/20 01:24 PM
02/22/20 01:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,880
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline OP
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danny clifton  Offline OP
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So your saying that the church didnt burn early scientists or put them under house arrest or ridicule the earth is round and revolves around the sun? What about burning early dr's for wanting to dissect corpses?

You keep insinuating i think evolution is fact. I have said all along i dont know. There is evidence that supports that theory and none that gives credence to an invisible deity that created and controls the galaxy.


i say we don't know. I would like to know but seriously doubt it will be answered in my lifetime.

Lack of proof that the big bang happened or that life began as single cells and evolved is NOT proof that a creator exists and the bible is the creators truth.

throughout our history religion has been used to control people and unify them. It is the exact reason constantine put together the first organized christian church. To unify all the tribes in his empire. Its why so much paganism exist in christianity. It served to help him unify his empire under one religion and his rule. its why all the important doctrines were voted on. Even whether or not jesus was divine. many many early followers did not think he was.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: ] #6779448
02/22/20 01:31 PM
02/22/20 01:31 PM
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark June


And sorry DonnerS,
There has never been a trans-mutable discovery between two distinct species. Close cousins becoming one, yes. Two distinct. Never.




I do not think you are correct but I am weary of saying that because of the specific wording you are using.

A few years back it was "Dinosaurs could of never evolved into birds because they couldn't have feathers" Then fossils of feathered dinosaurs are examined or discovered.

Another, "Humans could not have come from Chimps because there is no missing link" then fossil and DNA discoveries show a common ancestor and many "missing links" as well as DNA from now extinct archaic Humanoids.

To my observation the evidence keeps pushing one way and it is not towards men rising from the dead or parting seas with staffs.

Last edited by Donnersurvivor; 02/22/20 01:32 PM.
Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: danny clifton] #6779477
02/22/20 02:15 PM
02/22/20 02:15 PM

J
J Staton
Unregistered
J Staton
Unregistered
J



Danny Catholics burned Christians for sharing the Bible. Scientists weren't the only ones burned.
Do you think the science of climate change is not being used to control people. As well as evolution, big bang, etc. Believe in science, not in God.
Donnersurvivor I guess witnesses seeing the resurrected Jesus ain't good enough for you. I know scientists are as pure as the fresh driven snow. There is no possible way that data would/could be manipulated to prove a point a person wants to make, or to receive funding for a particular project, etc. We all know scientists walk on water.

Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: danny clifton] #6779487
02/22/20 02:30 PM
02/22/20 02:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,880
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline OP
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i never saw anyone walk on water. Never saw starving people get manna from heaven. Never heard any fell for starving jews during the holocaust.

Catholics were burning protestants because they were losing some of their control and a lot of their money. It was more about showing relics capable of miracles as being hoax's rather than bible interpretation. The whole statue crying blood and skulls with eyes that moved etc was a BIG money maker. When the pope said no more church owned brothels they needed new sources of revenue. the protestants were costing them a fortune in lost revenue.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: ] #6779492
02/22/20 02:40 PM
02/22/20 02:40 PM
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Originally Posted by J Staton
Danny Catholics burned Christians for sharing the Bible. Scientists weren't the only ones burned.
Do you think the science of climate change is not being used to control people. As well as evolution, big bang, etc. Believe in science, not in God.
Donnersurvivor I guess witnesses seeing the resurrected Jesus ain't good enough for you. I know scientists are as pure as the fresh driven snow. There is no possible way that data would/could be manipulated to prove a point a person wants to make, or to receive funding for a particular project, etc. We all know scientists walk on water.


Some individual scientist have undoubtedly fudged some things throughout history or even went so far as to fake data. Scientist are human and prone to mistakes, that is one reason it is good that multiple people in the same field replicate and review findings and that nobody is above reproach in science.

I dont believe the witnesses that say they have seen Sasquatch, I dont believe the witnesses that say they have seen the lochness monster, I dont believe witnesses who said they have seen angels or demons and I dont believe the witnesses who seen a dead guy rise out of a grave move a giant stone and then went to visit his friends.

One time I seen a fox, I barely caught a glimpse of him cresting a hill, I ran up to get a better look and that fox had turned into a squirrel and had left squirrel tracks right were I had seen the fox, but I was 100% sure I seen a fox...

Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: danny clifton] #6779499
02/22/20 02:54 PM
02/22/20 02:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,153
Marion Kansas
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Yes sir Offline
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You guys touting science are mostly counting on theories not proven science. The real gap is the link of one cell turning into a different cell. And when it happens it would be instantly not over millions of years because a cell cant be part one thing and part another thing. The millions of years is just something that's gives the illusion that the impossible is possible if given enough time.

The other gap is an inorganic thing taking on life. Again the millions of years thing. In those millions of years is it slowly transitioning from a rock to a living thing, like part inorganic to part alive?

Last edited by Yes sir; 02/22/20 02:57 PM.
Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: danny clifton] #6779505
02/22/20 03:10 PM
02/22/20 03:10 PM

J
J Staton
Unregistered
J Staton
Unregistered
J



Originally Posted by danny clifton
i never saw anyone walk on water. Never saw starving people get manna from heaven. Never heard any fell for starving jews during the holocaust.

Catholics were burning protestants because they were losing some of their control and a lot of their money. It was more about showing relics capable of miracles as being hoax's rather than bible interpretation. The whole statue crying blood and skulls with eyes that moved etc was a BIG money maker. When the pope said no more church owned brothels they needed new sources of revenue. the protestants were costing them a fortune in lost revenue.

You think early Catholics were burning scientists for another reason? The early Catholic church was manipulative and evil. That early "church" is not representative of the true Gospel, neither then or now.

Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6779509
02/22/20 03:13 PM
02/22/20 03:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
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Mike in A-town Offline
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Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted by James

SO WHERE ARE THEY?

Jim


I am starting to feel like I am being interrogated lol.





grin

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6779511
02/22/20 03:15 PM
02/22/20 03:15 PM

J
J Staton
Unregistered
J Staton
Unregistered
J



Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted by J Staton
Danny Catholics burned Christians for sharing the Bible. Scientists weren't the only ones burned.
Do you think the science of climate change is not being used to control people. As well as evolution, big bang, etc. Believe in science, not in God.
Donnersurvivor I guess witnesses seeing the resurrected Jesus ain't good enough for you. I know scientists are as pure as the fresh driven snow. There is no possible way that data would/could be manipulated to prove a point a person wants to make, or to receive funding for a particular project, etc. We all know scientists walk on water.


Some individual scientist have undoubtedly fudged some things throughout history or even went so far as to fake data. Scientist are human and prone to mistakes, that is one reason it is good that multiple people in the same field replicate and review findings and that nobody is above reproach in science.

I dont believe the witnesses that say they have seen Sasquatch, I dont believe the witnesses that say they have seen the lochness monster, I dont believe witnesses who said they have seen angels or demons and I dont believe the witnesses who seen a dead guy rise out of a grave move a giant stone and then went to visit his friends.

One time I seen a fox, I barely caught a glimpse of him cresting a hill, I ran up to get a better look and that fox had turned into a squirrel and had left squirrel tracks right were I had seen the fox, but I was 100% sure I seen a fox...

Have you seen evolution, a big bang, etc.? You seem to have no problem believing those things that are unseen.

Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: danny clifton] #6779529
02/22/20 03:28 PM
02/22/20 03:28 PM
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DuxDawg Offline
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Look at an eye. Absolutely no way an eye arises through random selection. EVERY intermediate step is COMPLETELY USELESS. Yet we are supposed to believe that millions of organisms perpetuated thousands of *useless* intermediate, *nonfunctional* organs over millions of years until voila! a fully functioning eye pops up, and then... eyes get instantly spread across hundreds of species. Yeah right!!

The only evolution is devolution - narrowing, aka lessening, of genetic information. The evidence has clearly shown that genetic information is *never* expanding, only contracting. Like all Lefties, Darwin got it backwards.


"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
-Edmund Burke
"We are fast approaching... rule by brute force."
-Ayn Rand
Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: DuxDawg] #6779537
02/22/20 03:43 PM
02/22/20 03:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,153
Marion Kansas
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Yes sir Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Yes sir  Offline
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Marion Kansas
Originally Posted by DuxDawg
Look at an eye. Absolutely no way an eye arises through random selection. EVERY intermediate step is COMPLETELY USELESS. Yet we are supposed to believe that millions of organisms perpetuated thousands of *useless* intermediate, *nonfunctional* organs over millions of years until voila! a fully functioning eye pops up, and then... eyes get instantly spread across hundreds of species. Yeah right!!

The only evolution is devolution - narrowing, aka lessening, of genetic information. The evidence has clearly shown that genetic information is *never* expanding, only contracting. Like all Lefties, Darwin got it backwards.

The last two sentences there have more science, proof and facts behind them than all the evolution theory put together.

Last edited by Yes sir; 02/22/20 03:44 PM.
Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: danny clifton] #6779538
02/22/20 03:44 PM
02/22/20 03:44 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
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Northeast Oklahoma
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Mike in A-town Offline
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James' question is one I have asked myself for a while.

WHERE ARE THEY?

And I'm not even looking for a saucer to set down on the White House lawn and see Klaatu emerge. We've been using radio for about 125 years now. So for 125 years we've had signals emanating from Earth at the speed of light... So anybody listening within approximately 60 light years has had time to hear and respond and we should've heard their reply by now. So far... Zip.

Or if one wants to argue that we are late bloomers and other intelligences have had possibly a billion years head start... We should be picking up signals from "civilizations" a billion or so light years away by now. So far... Zip.

Radio is about the cheapest, most effective way (admittedly, that we are aware of) to contact anyone who might be listening. To me it would be the first step to at least get a bearing on which way to head if you were making preparations to strike out and explore. So far... Zip.

So, the distances are so vast that we haven't had time to receive a signal... Or we aren't hearing what they're sending... Or "they" have decided we aren't worth talking to...

Or Occam was right, simplest answer is usually the correct one... there is no one out there... We're it.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: danny clifton] #6779558
02/22/20 03:58 PM
02/22/20 03:58 PM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



OK, I'll admit it. My name is Mark and I'm a Trekkie. Grew up on it. Couldn't get enough of it. Want more of it.
But even if the Klingon space craft has been in the shop for quite a while after mowing a field in Iowa spelling out "ET WAS HERE" or "AND YOU'RE LITTLE DOG TOO," and D'Jaba hasn't been able to make it back for those who await his return in his saucer....

Who made the Alien?

Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: ] #6779575
02/22/20 04:36 PM
02/22/20 04:36 PM
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Originally Posted by J Staton

Have you seen evolution, a big bang, etc.? You seem to have no problem believing those things that are unseen.


We can see evolution, check out wall lizards. We can also see it in the fossil record and with DNA. We cannot see the big bang only the evidence that it happened. Imagine walking up to the scene of a car crash, broken vehicles, glass all over the road, because you did not see the actual crash would you doubt what happened?

Re: Miller-Urey experiment [Re: DuxDawg] #6779578
02/22/20 04:39 PM
02/22/20 04:39 PM
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Originally Posted by DuxDawg
Look at an eye. Absolutely no way an eye arises through random selection. EVERY intermediate step is COMPLETELY USELESS. Yet we are supposed to believe that millions of organisms perpetuated thousands of *useless* intermediate, *nonfunctional* organs over millions of years until voila! a fully functioning eye pops up, and then... eyes get instantly spread across hundreds of species. Yeah right!!

The only evolution is devolution - narrowing, aka lessening, of genetic information. The evidence has clearly shown that genetic information is *never* expanding, only contracting. Like all Lefties, Darwin got it backwards.



The evolution of the eye makes sense. Intermediates would be highly useful. https://evolution-institute.org/eye-origins-how-evolution-could-produce-a-sophisticated-eye/

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