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Re: Days of Noah [Re: wetdog] #6901517
06/16/20 09:30 PM
06/16/20 09:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,529
NW Illinois
K
Kevin Stake Offline
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NW Illinois
If you don't have the Holy spirit in you, the bible will be hard to understand.


It is more blessed to give than to receive
Re: Days of Noah [Re: Kevin Stake] #6901528
06/16/20 09:42 PM
06/16/20 09:42 PM

M
Mark June
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Mark June
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Originally Posted by Kevin Stake
If you don't have the Holy spirit in you, the bible will be hard to understand.


Good point Kevin!
It is not clearly understood without the work of the Spirit.
NT Scripture tells us it's foolishness to the unrepentant.

I don't feel so bad when I come across a text that I struggle with. First, Greek is not like the English language, so translation can blur context and meaning where one language is not exactly like the translation language used. I'm studying the original NT language for 3 years in seminary, and I can say, it's wonderful and HARD! English has 3 tenses, past, present, and future. The Greek has 7; present, perfect, future, imperfect, pluperfect, 1st and 2nd Aorist, future perfect. The language of Greek, God chose for His NT text, helps us further understand the fullest meaning of a word in that language, and that's vital with Scripture.

Besides, the Apostles themselves struggled to follow the meaning of Jesus' parables as He told them, and they walked alongside the Messiah!
So, I just smile and ask the Spirit to help me understand better, for His Glory, not mine.

And, without Divine guidance and illumination, we're very apt to error and mis-interpret with a dull, heard heart = pride = I'm right, you're not = sin.

Good post brother.
Blessings
Mark

Re: Days of Noah [Re: wetdog] #6901627
06/16/20 10:54 PM
06/16/20 10:54 PM

M
Mark June
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Mark June
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James,

I'll attempt to get to your Pneumatology topic tomorrow sir.
Not too bad on the trap line today. Only 90 degrees with a 75 dew point and 65% humidity. Reset 95 traps today after it had rained hard yesterday, and as I got 'er all set back the way I like it...
It rained.

Lord, may you furnish this miracle of rain to this area, after I'm done next week!
95 resets again tomorrow.
My giddy up and go is about to giddy up and went.

Re: Days of Noah [Re: James] #6901657
06/16/20 11:17 PM
06/16/20 11:17 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
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Foxpaw Offline
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Originally Posted by James
I thought God was everyone's god.

Don't see any reason why He should favor one people over another, at least today.

Jim


James that is a mouth full, lol.
I hear it often that some are chosen and some are not. Seems to me when man took the fall in the Garden then all were doomed, which would over ride any predetermined elect, except for the one truly elect. Which was Jesus when The Father and Holy Spirit said my creation needs someone to redeem them. Jesus was elected when he said "Here am I send me". Personally I believe in a faith that allows with Grace to be able to make a choice as to whom I will follow. In other words I wasn't drafted in at the beginning of time, but was grafted in at a later date. God did and does have a chosen people but after the rejection of the Cornerstone made without hands he decided to let even the puppies have the scraps. That's not the same cornerstone Al Sharpton referred to the other day about the cornerstone of his great movement. Personally I believe we are elected to service and not elected to salvation. I'm not a student of double predestination. I think when people are down and out its easy to start thinking that maybe they are one of the ones predestined to fry. And to be without hope is a terrible place to be and often causes desperate measures. For that reason I refer back to the part you said about God being everybody's God, that includes those "whosoever will" puppies from under the table! So when we throw our hands up and say I just give up and "whatever will be will be", just remember the god of fortune and the god of destiny are the seeds and root of fatalism.

Re: Days of Noah [Re: James] #6901675
06/16/20 11:31 PM
06/16/20 11:31 PM

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Mark June
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Mark June
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Originally Posted by James
I thought God was everyone's god.

Don't see any reason why He should favor one people over another, at least today.

Jim


James,

I'll again help your son minister to you in a pal to pal fashion.

You frame this particular discussion, as most do, from the vantage of your individual logic. "I don't see" is a reference by you that you are holding the measuring stick, and God doesn't measure up to your expectation of Him. Sound about on par?

Think about that for just a moment. We are to use our logic, so we begin with Aristotle basics of the parts define the whole = Reframe it as God is an infinite Being and we are finite. So how would any measurement stick we bring to the game have much bearing on the game? Goodness sake, a lesser can't compete with a greater of that magnitude, much less profess the rules of the encounter.

God doesn't require - any of us - no matter how smart or how dumb we are, to make the sun rise tomorrow, so we simply, logically rest in the fact that, "God's ways are not my ways, and His thoughts are not my thoughts."

We can know God completely but not exhaustively is the premise counselor.

Blessings
Mark

Re: Days of Noah [Re: James] #6902357
06/17/20 07:55 PM
06/17/20 07:55 PM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
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M



Originally Posted by James
And what about the Holy Ghost?

My mother's explanation about Him was kind of vague.

Jim


James,

I'm not sure if there's a specific question lodged within this general topic you ask, so I'll give a summary of sorts. If you have further Q's, I can perhaps offer a further explanation.
Please understand I'm of a fundamental orthodox Christian faith personally. There is centuries of historical explanatory dogma and doctrine that go hand in hand with my stance.
While none of us are God, and can know all things, we attempt to answer as clear as possible, questions of those within the faith as well as outside of it.
I'm Protestant, but the Roman Catholic and Protestant statement of faith on the Trinity of God, including the Holy Spirit, is similar and has been since the Early Church. The Triune God of Matthew 28:19 and the NT; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the same God of the OT that uses plural Hebrew terms to describe Him.

I offer;
First, there are those who profess to be Christian. They might be in our church. They might be in our workplace. They may be among our family, friends, or our neighbors. Most of them, if honest, humbly admit a theological fog hangs over the topic of Trinitarianism - they find the Trinity hard to comprehend, and even harder to explain, perhaps even believing that the topic of a Triune God is best left for theologians and scholars.

Second, we may interact with secularists or atheists, who are humanistic in their philosophical rationale. For these individuals, faith best rests upon the post-modern era methodology of observability and repeatability, to determine what’s true and what isn’t.

Third, perhaps, we meet with a moralist, who believes the centuries old Enlightenment philosophy in which there is no higher power than the pursuit of knowledge, moral righteousness, and being good. Maybe we have lunch with an evolutionist, who believes Darwinism and science answer all things, and that given enough time and resources, humankind will create nirvana. Or, the orthodox believer, who trusts in their faithful penance to men and hegemony, as their sanctifying methodism for personal salvation.

Lastly, we may ask ourselves, should we even meet with individuals who worship within an aberrant religion which doesn’t affirm the same doctrine of Bibliology as we do?

The answer to that last question is - sure, we should share the Gospel with everyone.
In the case of the Spirit, John 14:16-17 and Acts 2:14-21 are foundational

Jn 14:16-17 (NASB)
Jesus tells HIs disciples;
I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.


Acts 2:14-21
Peter's sermon;
But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN,
I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT
And they shall prophesy.
‘AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE
AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW,
BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
‘THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS
AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD,
BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’

Just a toe in this water sir, about the Trinity, the Father who stands above us in love, the Son who walks beside the faithful, and the Spirit who dwells within.
Wishing you blessings!
Mark


Re: Days of Noah [Re: Kevin Stake] #6902374
06/17/20 08:05 PM
06/17/20 08:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline
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Originally Posted by Kevin Stake
If you don't have the Holy spirit in you, the bible will be hard to understand.


Why should the Bible be hard to understand? Did Christ intend that his words would require hard work or high IQ to understand?

Why can't I, as a doubter, come to the Bible and find a clear unambiguous message?

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Days of Noah [Re: ] #6902376
06/17/20 08:10 PM
06/17/20 08:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark June
Originally Posted by James
I thought God was everyone's god.

Don't see any reason why He should favor one people over another, at least today.

Jim


James,

I'll again help your son minister to you in a pal to pal fashion.

You frame this particular discussion, as most do, from the vantage of your individual logic. "I don't see" is a reference by you that you are holding the measuring stick, and God doesn't measure up to your expectation of Him. Sound about on par?

Think about that for just a moment. We are to use our logic, so we begin with Aristotle basics of the parts define the whole = Reframe it as God is an infinite Being and we are finite. So how would any measurement stick we bring to the game have much bearing on the game? Goodness sake, a lesser can't compete with a greater of that magnitude, much less profess the rules of the encounter.

God doesn't require - any of us - no matter how smart or how dumb we are, to make the sun rise tomorrow, so we simply, logically rest in the fact that, "God's ways are not my ways, and His thoughts are not my thoughts."

We can know God completely but not exhaustively is the premise counselor.

Blessings
Mark


If God created us, he also created an ability to use logic. Thanks to logic, we can now travel thousands of miles in a day by plane, and type these words and display them all over the country.

Why shouldn't I rely on logic? Logic has stood me in good stead over the years, and I've fallen into error when I used illogic.

To know the mind of God would be a wonderful thing.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Days of Noah [Re: wetdog] #6902382
06/17/20 08:22 PM
06/17/20 08:22 PM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
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M



James,

The doctrine of the clarity of Scripture (the perspicuity of Scripture); is a Protestant teaching; "...those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them".

Historical Protestants, especially evangelicals, align more with Calvinism, that man is depraved and needs the illumination of the Holy Spirit in order to see the meaning for what it is. Luther argued for clearness of scripture, to the saint and the unbeliever both.
So there are tensions in theology, which is not uncommon. Finite people trying to figure out an Infinite God.

Perhaps we could say, praying for the Spirit to lead and illuminate clearly all that God reveals, is not a bad plan of action.
After all, 2 Tim 3:16 tells us the Spirit Inspired the human authors to write it all, so let's go straight to the Source!
Scripture is Perfect Truth and I'm not savvy enough to be a perfect anything.

Blessings,
Mark

Re: Days of Noah [Re: wetdog] #6902399
06/17/20 08:33 PM
06/17/20 08:33 PM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



James,

Logic is inherent in us, so we're prolly supposed to use it!
I would agree with you in that regard counselor, but there is great wisdom in knowing where logical thought ends and God begins.
We can fly 1000's a day in a plane and do so many other incredible things never imagined even a century ago, but have we traded our souls for wealth, pleasure, entertainment, prestige, glory, dominion over others, and on and on.

How come James;
With all the advances in medicine, technology, industry, the last 400 years,
during which time great notable philosophers expounded, pontificated, bloviated, and theorized about the wondrous progression of the human species;
How come some still aren't exactly perfected, seemingly regressing as they riot in the streets?

Re: Days of Noah [Re: James] #6902413
06/17/20 08:45 PM
06/17/20 08:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,653
Central Texas
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Chancey Offline
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Central Texas
Originally Posted by James
Originally Posted by Kevin Stake
If you don't have the Holy spirit in you, the bible will be hard to understand.


Why should the Bible be hard to understand? Did Christ intend that his words would require hard work or high IQ to understand?

Why can't I, as a doubter, come to the Bible and find a clear unambiguous message?

Jim



The above quote was not directed to me, but I want to respond and I hope that Kevin and James do not take any offense.

James, my neighbor who is 55 years old and can only write his name understands Jesus' love. My daughter who is now 4 years old, understood Jesus' message when she was two years old. I am 40 and have two degrees in biology and also understand the message. I know a lot of more educated people than me with all kinds of math and physics degrees and they also get it.

This is the power of the Word of God. One does not have to be intelligent, smart, or even educated to understand it. A two year old gets it, my illiterate neighbor gets it, and scientists get it. We see it all around us and it is in our very own hearts; as we are created beings.

Doubting your very nature about this can lead to a hardened heart that will not allow one to hear or see the Truth. Sometimes I fear you have hardened your heart so much, that you cannot see or hear. I pray for you sincerely that God will open your eyes and convict you. When He does, you will never be the same, but most don't want True Conviction. If you are really seeking Truth, I would suggest that you pray to God to open your eyes and see it. I fear you don't really want it though; I hope I am wrong. Chancey


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Re: Days of Noah [Re: wetdog] #6902416
06/17/20 08:45 PM
06/17/20 08:45 PM
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Central Texas
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True conviction will put you on your knees.


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Re: Days of Noah [Re: wetdog] #6902422
06/17/20 08:52 PM
06/17/20 08:52 PM
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Chancey Offline
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Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables?


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Re: Days of Noah [Re: wetdog] #6902450
06/17/20 09:12 PM
06/17/20 09:12 PM

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Mark June
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The Gospel message is the center of it all.

We always have to be careful that theological study doesn't lead us to endless endeavor in areas that are not essentially tethered to the Gospel.
One of my professors smiles when he mentions that in his 45 years of pastoring, he's know more than a few people who sure know their Bible, but don't know the Person it was written about.

Are we faith seeking understanding
or
Understanding seeking faith?

Americans as a culture are typically the latter, because we are taught to learn as a culture. The higher the education, the better, is believed by more Americans now more than ever before.

Compelling how the early followers of Christ, known as "the Way," were typically commoners, many were not well read or of high status, who met in each others homes (no churches on the scene yet), praying, perhaps reading a letter by an Apostle (if they had a scribes copy), and worshipping Christ the Savior who was killed by Pilate, buried, and after three days rose again.

We are always encouraged to get back to basics in theology proper!
Good points Chancey.
Thank you brother!
Blessings from near Cotulla, TX!
Mark

Re: Days of Noah [Re: wetdog] #6902590
06/17/20 10:55 PM
06/17/20 10:55 PM
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Romans 3:10
Romans 3:23
Romans 6:23
Romans 5:8
Romans 10:9-10
Romans 10:13
Romans 5:1-2
Romans 8:1

Read them. Meditate/ponder on them. Believe them. Then worry about the Old Testament.


James 1: 19-20
Re: Days of Noah [Re: James] #6903251
06/18/20 05:41 PM
06/18/20 05:41 PM

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Mark June
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Originally Posted by James
And what about the Holy Ghost?

My mother's explanation about Him was kind of vague.

Jim


The NT author write about God as; the pnuema hagios, the Holy Spirit, who is; fully God, conceiver of Christ, inspiration of Scripture, Counselor, Comforter and Advocate, Spirit of both the Father and the Son, giver of Spiritual gifts, and having the power to resurrect us.

Re: Days of Noah [Re: wetdog] #7592018
05/26/22 06:58 PM
05/26/22 06:58 PM
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It is happening in small steps, and will continue to happen in small steps just like the LGBT movement.

Then one day, we'll look around and ask WTH happened? But then, it will be too late. Chancey

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/26/australia-thylacine-tasmanian-tiger-extinct/


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Re: Days of Noah [Re: Chancey] #7592022
05/26/22 07:01 PM
05/26/22 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Chancey
True conviction will put you on your knees.

It surely will.

Re: Days of Noah [Re: wetdog] #7592040
05/26/22 07:29 PM
05/26/22 07:29 PM
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Noah's Ark , 300 cubits × 50 cubits, 30 cubits
Not enough rain to build one here yet
but would be a heck of a project to undertake before the big animal round up.
You would definitely have to full of the Holy Spirit for that kind of commitment.


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Re: Days of Noah [Re: wetdog] #7592086
05/26/22 08:59 PM
05/26/22 08:59 PM
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Central Texas
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Noah's Ark won't be needed this time the way I interpret the Word.


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