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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6925097
07/09/20 03:29 PM
07/09/20 03:29 PM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted by warrior
To say a god who allows evil isn't a god at all is the same as saying a god that doesn't give me everything I want when I want isn't a god, and he wouldn't be if he did.
God is not the sugar daddy in the sky.

There is a big difference between not getting everything you want and children who are born with cancer who survive a few miserable weeks before perishing.


There are many situations we cannot figure out and pray for the mercy of our Lord. Young infants are one such instance.
I've sat with grieving parents more than a few times on this very topic.
Answers? How can we see what we can not know for certain.
Donnersurvivor and danny are the two who most often bring up scenarios on how they would/would not handle it if they were God.
To prove there is no God.
Ok.

But I'm not going to your church until your only son rises from the grave, after being dead for three days, and more than 500 people witness it.

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: bowhunter27295] #6925102
07/09/20 03:33 PM
07/09/20 03:33 PM
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Posts: 4,528
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Originally Posted by bowhunter27295
To those of you who believe in abortion, just for giggles, do me a favor.

Ask your mother if you were planned or if you were a surprise.

Then think about that for a while. Were your mother and father too stupid to use birth control? Are you glad they decided to keep you?

Lots of hard questions a lot of people don't want to answer despite knowing the truth in their minds.


I make no qualms about womens rights etc, my support for abortion is purely out of selfish interest, I dont want to pay more in taxes to take care of the unwanted kids or to deal with the problem many of them would become.

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925104
07/09/20 03:34 PM
07/09/20 03:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
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When I was conceived birth control pills were not invented and abortion was illegal. My parents were married though and I feel certain they knew what the result of their love would be.

I really am not comfortable with abortion as birth control. I don't want to adopt or foster any kids though either. It is most often shame I think that causes lack of contraceptive use. In our culture people who engage in unmarried sex are looked upon with disdain by many. People dont want to ask for it. Especially high school girls.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925106
07/09/20 03:35 PM
07/09/20 03:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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danny clifton  Offline
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williamsburg ks
If that really happened Mark I would go to yours


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: ] #6925107
07/09/20 03:35 PM
07/09/20 03:35 PM
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Posts: 4,528
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark June

Donnersurvivor and danny are the two who most often bring up scenarios on how they would/would not handle it if they were God.
To prove there is no God.
Ok.

But I'm not going to your church until your only son rises from the grave, after being dead for three days, and more than 500 people witness it.


I have no desire to prove there is not a god, I just dont think there is, or if there is a god I do not think we have any idea who he is or what he is doing.

As far as Jesus rising from the dead, whats the source of that information? You see the problem?

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925203
07/09/20 05:45 PM
07/09/20 05:45 PM
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Arkansas
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J Staton Offline
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Arkansas
Even the folks from The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster would have sense enough to know that the fetus growing within a woman is a human billing. Knowing and actively killing another human, except in defense, is murder. Those who support abortion, support murder. It's as simple as that.


James 1: 19-20
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: danny clifton] #6925292
07/09/20 07:03 PM
07/09/20 07:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,432
Georgia
warrior Offline
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warrior  Offline
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Georgia
Originally Posted by danny clifton
If that really happened Mark I would go to yours


It really did!


[Linked Image]
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925333
07/09/20 07:41 PM
07/09/20 07:41 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 1,354
Saskatchewan
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rvsask Offline
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I was conceived by a married couple with a child already. It was not accidental or planned but an acceptable result of what could be.
On that note, teen pregnancy is quite high in the USa compared to many other developed nations. Who supports condoms for boys, free birth control for girls and real sex Ed in schools, not the grotesquely failing abstinence program pushed by the church? The lord himself should see that one isn’t working. Proactive beats reactive every time.

Last edited by rvsask; 07/09/20 07:41 PM.
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6925340
07/09/20 07:47 PM
07/09/20 07:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,432
Georgia
warrior Offline
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warrior  Offline
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Georgia
Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted by Mark June

Donnersurvivor and danny are the two who most often bring up scenarios on how they would/would not handle it if they were God.
To prove there is no God.
Ok.

But I'm not going to your church until your only son rises from the grave, after being dead for three days, and more than 500 people witness it.


I have no desire to prove there is not a god, I just dont think there is, or if there is a god I do not think we have any idea who he is or what he is doing.

As far as Jesus rising from the dead, whats the source of that information? You see the problem?


If you would choose not to use primary sources such as the gospels would secondary sources such as Josephus, archeology and other historical works suffice? We have more secondary source material that confirms and supports the primary sources than most historical figures have as primary.

https://youtu.be/14JkC5at_Fw


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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925357
07/09/20 08:02 PM
07/09/20 08:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline
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James  Offline
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Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
Why, if there's a God, would He make it so hard for his creations to understand Him? If He is the law-giver, why make His will ambiguous or hard to understand?

Mark, you can always retreat behind the saying "God's mind is different, his ways are mysterious." That's your defense for any intellectual challenge.

It's a self-authenticating statement, impossible to call into question. It has the answer for every response.

If God made us in His own image, why wouldn't we be able to follow His reasoning? (God's ways are mysterious.)

I'm going to play the if-I-was-God game too.

If I was God, and wanted to give them my Law, my Will, which I plan to enforce upon penalty of an eternity in Hades, then out of fairness, love, and respect for my creations, I would give them that Law as clearly and unambiguously and consistently as I, God, could give it.

And if the Bible is an enchanted book, the inspired word of God, it should be perfect in its meaning and understandability, no matter what language it's translated into.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: rvsask] #6925364
07/09/20 08:08 PM
07/09/20 08:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Bruce T Offline
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Northern Maine
Originally Posted by rvsask
I was conceived by a married couple with a child already. It was not accidental or planned but an acceptable result of what could be.
On that note, teen pregnancy is quite high in the USa compared to many other developed nations. Who supports condoms for boys, free birth control for girls and real sex Ed in schools, not the grotesquely failing abstinence program pushed by the church? The lord himself should see that one isn’t working. Proactive beats reactive every time.

You can't change God's laws.They are what they are.


Nevada bound
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: James] #6925369
07/09/20 08:10 PM
07/09/20 08:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Bruce T Offline
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Bruce T  Offline
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Northern Maine
Originally Posted by James
Why, if there's a God, would He make it so hard for his creations to understand Him? If He is the law-giver, why make His will ambiguous or hard to understand?

Mark, you can always retreat behind the saying "God's mind is different, his ways are mysterious." That's your defense for any intellectual challenge.

It's a self-authenticating statement, impossible to call into question. It has the answer for every response.

If God made us in His own image, why wouldn't we be able to follow His reasoning? (God's ways are mysterious.)

I'm going to play the if-I-was-God game too.

If I was God, and wanted to give them my Law, my Will, which I plan to enforce upon penalty of an eternity in Hades, then out of fairness, love, and respect for my creations, I would give them that Law as clearly and unambiguously and consistently as I, God, could give it.

And if the Bible is an enchanted book, the inspired word of God, it should be perfect in its meaning and understandability, no matter what language it's translated into.

Jim


God's laws are pretty straight forward.People just don't want to follow them instead doing what they want instead.


Nevada bound
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: warrior] #6925375
07/09/20 08:14 PM
07/09/20 08:14 PM
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Posts: 4,528
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Originally Posted by warrior


If you would choose not to use primary sources such as the gospels would secondary sources such as Josephus, archeology and other historical works suffice? We have more secondary source material that confirms and supports the primary sources than most historical figures have as primary.

https://youtu.be/14JkC5at_Fw


Yes, sources outside the bible are much more valuable to me than using the bible itself as a source for its own truth. I really do not want to watch a 90 minute video on Christian apologetics, do you know the time stamp when they talk about the subject at hand (Jesus rising from the dead).

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6925394
07/09/20 08:39 PM
07/09/20 08:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,432
Georgia
warrior Offline
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That one is part one of a two parter. I recommend watching both as he doesn't even get into the resurrection in detail. He spends two hours laying the basis of why the gospels are credible eye witness accounts and that the texts are essentially unchanged over two millennia.


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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925408
07/09/20 09:12 PM
07/09/20 09:12 PM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



An apologetic is a defense against aberrant views within the church or challenges from outside the church. These are both valid.
I'm fit and able to give an apologetic as needed, but the comments asking for them are not seeking. I sense they are pretty much made up against the existence of God. And that's fine.

James, my defense is strong and I have laid it out in copious pages on various subjects, for the past months, and you generalize all of it to a one line sentence. So it comes across not as a sincere question. I do and will say God is mysterious. I have repeatedly said God is infinite, and we are finite, and I would ask you give your redeemed son and the Christian faithful (in the traditional orthodoxy) the understanding that this is a valid point.

It's a big topic. We think the biggest there is. You always ask, as an man trained in the legal profession for a definite answer.
If I dove in that deep brother, it'd not really be a TMan level apologetic.
I hope you can understand where we come from as we attempt to summarize - not dive as deep as we can.

It is a trapping forum after all!
wink

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925549
07/09/20 11:30 PM
07/09/20 11:30 PM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



James is really not that bad.
He just likes to throw a grenade in the bunker and then asks a simple one layer question.
You then answer.
He deflects and asks yet another question.
You again answer.
(Thomas Aquinas Summa style back and forth).

He thens leaves the discussion and grabs another grenade.
He's fun to watch in action.
grin

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925644
07/10/20 05:01 AM
07/10/20 05:01 AM
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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That is one of my big sticking points too. If the consequences of not obeying your LOVING father is to be tortured horribly for eternity (burning), why are the rules written in riddles? Why do the rules change? Why is the book so complicated? Why would a LOVING father create flaws in people then torture them for those flaws?

I don't expect anybody to answer. I have listened to preachers chase their tails over those questions since I was in high school. The result of doubt and questioning
always ends the same way. Anger, not answers that make any sense.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: bowhunter27295] #6925654
07/10/20 05:32 AM
07/10/20 05:32 AM
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central Haudenosaunee, the De...
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white marlin Offline
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central Haudenosaunee, the De...
Originally Posted by bowhunter27295
So let me get this straight. You, a former lawyer, want a law that is infallible and unambiguous.

You want an infallible Bible yet you worked in the most fallible and ambiguous career field known?

You're delusional.


Touche!


God said "Thou shalt not kill."

WE said, "but wait a minute. what if...".

Last edited by white marlin; 07/10/20 05:35 AM.
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925662
07/10/20 05:52 AM
07/10/20 05:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline
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Never get between a fool and his fan mail.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925665
07/10/20 05:58 AM
07/10/20 05:58 AM
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Posts: 6,461
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
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white marlin Offline
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you're avoiding my point.

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