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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: danny clifton] #6925669
07/10/20 06:03 AM
07/10/20 06:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Bruce T Offline
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
That is one of my big sticking points too. If the consequences of not obeying your LOVING father is to be tortured horribly for eternity (burning), why are the rules written in riddles? Why do the rules change? Why is the book so complicated? Why would a LOVING father create flaws in people then torture them for those flaws?

I don't expect anybody to answer. I have listened to preachers chase their tails over those questions since I was in high school. The result of doubt and questioning
always ends the same way. Anger, not answers that make any sense.

1.Gods rules have never changed
2.The Bible is not complicated.People don't like some of God's rules and have always tried to change the rules to try and fit their needs.
3.People not God created all the flaws.The anger is from people not getting what they want.God gave us free will.He is patiently waiting for us to turn to him.


Nevada bound
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: James] #6925698
07/10/20 06:48 AM
07/10/20 06:48 AM
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Posts: 6,461
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
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white marlin Offline
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Originally Posted by James
I'm going to play the if-I-was-God game too.

If I was God, and wanted to give them my Law, my Will, which I plan to enforce upon penalty of an eternity in Hades, then out of fairness, love, and respect for my creations, I would give them that Law as clearly and unambiguously and consistently as I, God, could give it.

And if the Bible is an enchanted book, the inspired word of God, it should be perfect in its meaning and understandability, no matter what language it's translated into. Jim


God said "Thou shalt not kill."

what's ambiguous about that?


and we answered Him saying: "but wait a minute. what if..."

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: ] #6925700
07/10/20 06:50 AM
07/10/20 06:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,691
pa
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hippie Offline
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pa
Originally Posted by Mark June
James is really not that bad.
He just likes to throw a grenade in the bunker and then asks a simple one layer question.
You then answer.
He deflects and asks yet another question.
You again answer.
(Thomas Aquinas Summa style back and forth).

He thens leaves the discussion and grabs another grenade.
He's fun to watch in action.
grin


Careful, you're describing an act that he doesn't like the name of, and disagrees that he performs.

Last edited by hippie; 07/10/20 07:09 AM.
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925703
07/10/20 06:57 AM
07/10/20 06:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,751
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
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If gods rules never change why don't you stone prostitutes to death and own a few slaves?


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925705
07/10/20 07:04 AM
07/10/20 07:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,561
Va. Lee Co.
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Donnie H Offline
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Joined: Jan 2011
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Va. Lee Co.
GOD gave the 10 commandmets and man couldn't keep'em...
That why HE sent HIS SON to die for man's sins, all we have to do
is accept HIM. So simple, even I figured it out.


Donnie

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925728
07/10/20 07:37 AM
07/10/20 07:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,751
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
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Well some preachers justify all the god sanctioned killing in the bible by saying the correct translation is thou shalt not murder. Either way gods rules keep changing according to the bible. Men keep changing it also. Christianity today is not the same religion it was 1700 years ago. Judaism is a far different faith also


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925729
07/10/20 07:39 AM
07/10/20 07:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
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P.S. If jesus is one part of a whole then hasn’t jesus been around from the beginning?


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: danny clifton] #6925732
07/10/20 07:42 AM
07/10/20 07:42 AM
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pennsylvania
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rick brocious Offline
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
P.S. If jesus is one part of a whole then hasn’t jesus been around from the beginning?

Yes.

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: danny clifton] #6925794
07/10/20 08:59 AM
07/10/20 08:59 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by danny clifton
If gods rules never change why don't you stone prostitutes to death and own a few slaves?


Perhaps it's a good time to help a few of my fellow trappers better understand the Bible, as questions continue to surface such as; "why this," "why that." "why don't you," "how about this," etc.

First, I'll humbly offer, I can't help how past pastors, perhaps themselves properly or improperly trained in theology, did or didn't teach. Were they trained and if so, by whom? In what?
Case in point; Ever know any good or not so good trappers? How were they trained? By whom? The pastorate may be a calling but there's training involved.
Reverand Sharpton was ordained at age ten by the Charismatics (a sect of Christianity) and they say he preached prior to that. Sure. OK. See my point?

So, that offered;

The Bible is not (according to the orthodoxy - traditional view - of the Roman Catholic or Reformed Protestants).
> Written to us.
> Written about us.
> Written as our morality guide on how to act, or how not to act. (this has been preached hard by those who profess morality is how you acquire salvation - that is not the orthodox church view which holds to the doctrine of salvation -sin & grace - through Christ alone.
> A guide to the promised land if you do this and if you don't do that. See the above line.

The Bible may be these things to sects of the religion, but not to main line Christians.
So I don't know who preached which, what, or how.
I'm just helping explain the traditional view, because people have professed to have had all sorts of visions and Christophanies appear to them, starting all manner of churches. They are not the Church of the original didasko (teacher/Greek). Many sects emerged during the 1800's, a time of enlightenment among humans! Coincidence? Not.

The Bible is;
> Revealed for us (or how would we know)
> Inspired by divine power of the Holy Spirit (or how could we trust) 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20-21
> Written through human authors.
> The narrative story about God's Creation and all in it. (so we may know of Him)
> The story of God's Character of Righteousness - Justice - Mercy - Love in Perfect harmony and Unity. (so we may know about Him)
One God as 3 Persons - in function/characteristics, not as three separate divine powers.
> The story of God's Redemptive plan for Creation in His only Son (so that we may be redeemed through Christ to Him).

It's really quite beautiful.
America's greatest theologian, Jonathan Edwards saw the encroachment of the Enlightenment from Europe washing up upon the colonial shores, and he attempted to stem the theology liberalism washing upon our shores in the early 1700's. He did not succeed. Edwards believed people didn't chose God because they did not see the beauty of Him, rather they listened to other blighted humans tells them all manner of blight. Edward's wrote extensively as to how God did not have to create, but he did = beautiful. That God could have made us mere puppets, but He allowed us choice = beautiful. Edward's writings are the most eloquent we have as a nation on the beauty of our Maker;
for Jonathan Edwards it was 1 Timothy 1:17. He said; The first instance, that I remember, of that sort of inward, sweet delight in God and divine things, that I have lived much in since, was on reading these words, 1 Tim. 1:17, "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen." As I read the words, there came into my soul . . . a sense of the glory of the Divine Being; a new sense quite different from anything I ever experienced before. Never any words of Scripture seemed to me as these words did. (Works, vol. 1, p. xii)


I sincerely offer the above as a follower of Christ.
To clarify, not convict.
Only the Holy Spirit does the the convicting in our faith.

Blessings,
Mark







Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: danny clifton] #6925817
07/10/20 09:21 AM
07/10/20 09:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,432
Georgia
warrior Offline
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warrior  Offline
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Georgia
Originally Posted by danny clifton
P.S. If jesus is one part of a whole then hasn’t jesus been around from the beginning?


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. JOHN 1:1


Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. GENESIS 1:2


[Linked Image]
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: ] #6925821
07/10/20 09:23 AM
07/10/20 09:23 AM
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Posts: 4,529
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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MN
[quote=Mark June]

It's really quite beautiful.
America's greatest theologian, Jonathan Edwards saw the encroachment of the Enlightenment from Europe washing up upon the colonial shores, and he attempted to stem the theology liberalism washing upon our shores in the early 1700's. He did not succeed.


[/quote

Please tell me you are not condemning enlightenment thinking

Last edited by Donnersurvivor; 07/10/20 09:24 AM.
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925830
07/10/20 09:29 AM
07/10/20 09:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,432
Georgia
warrior Offline
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Georgia
While I can't speak for Mark I would opine that the humanist (ye shall be like gods) concepts of the enlightenment are quite detrimental. Example; see the French Revolution.


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Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: warrior] #6925854
07/10/20 10:06 AM
07/10/20 10:06 AM
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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MN
Originally Posted by warrior
While I can't speak for Mark I would opine that the humanist (ye shall be like gods) concepts of the enlightenment are quite detrimental. Example; see the French Revolution.

That is the same as saying Christianity is responsible for the things josheph kony has done in the Congo

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925857
07/10/20 10:10 AM
07/10/20 10:10 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



DS,

Warrior is correct. The Enlightenment with advances in humanistic development are a marvel and we are immeasurably advantaged to have all that we now have.
For instance, at the DTS library, there are 380,000 volumes written about 1 Book. We are encouraged to keep things in proper perspective in spite of our rational humanism.

The marvels will continue, and that is wonderful if you need a better internet connection, or seek medical care, or 1,000's of beneficial things.
Plus, that is where this world is headed, and the driver must like it that way, but would you agree that what Jonathan Edwards saw three hundred years after Renaissance in Europe, that is now called Enlightenment from 1650-800, may have come at the expense of our souls? Today's post-modern repeatedly survey as the most chronically lonely, chemically dependent group since surveys started in our nation. So perhaps all the "stuff" and "medical marvels" didn't resonant to the level you may think?

Your thoughts on that? We're a rich but still not happy nation at so many levels correct?

Blessings
Mark

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925858
07/10/20 10:13 AM
07/10/20 10:13 AM
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Posts: 4,529
MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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MN
Mark, Now we are into a conversation that interest me greatly and possibly one were common ground can be found, I'll continue this after work.

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925886
07/10/20 10:58 AM
07/10/20 10:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,432
Georgia
warrior Offline
trapper
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Georgia
Don't misinterpret. The Enlightment has rendered wonderful marvels, not the least of which is the American experiment we enjoy, with gargantuan advances in freedom and individual well being. However, the hubris to believe that this was accomplished completely outside the benificience of a holy God is to condemn it all as so much vanity.


[Linked Image]
Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: martentrapper] #6925914
07/10/20 11:30 AM
07/10/20 11:30 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



^^^^^
Amen.

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: ] #6926256
07/10/20 06:48 PM
07/10/20 06:48 PM
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MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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MN
Originally Posted by Mark June
DS,

Warrior is correct. The Enlightenment with advances in humanistic development are a marvel and we are immeasurably advantaged to have all that we now have.
For instance, at the DTS library, there are 380,000 volumes written about 1 Book. We are encouraged to keep things in proper perspective in spite of our rational humanism.

The marvels will continue, and that is wonderful if you need a better internet connection, or seek medical care, or 1,000's of beneficial things.
Plus, that is where this world is headed, and the driver must like it that way, but would you agree that what Jonathan Edwards saw three hundred years after Renaissance in Europe, that is now called Enlightenment from 1650-800, may have come at the expense of our souls? Today's post-modern repeatedly survey as the most chronically lonely, chemically dependent group since surveys started in our nation. So perhaps all the "stuff" and "medical marvels" didn't resonant to the level you may think?

Your thoughts on that? We're a rich but still not happy nation at so many levels correct?

Blessings
Mark


Enlightenment thinking gave us the end of slavery, the end of slavery gave us the industrial revolution which lead to the technological advancements we have today. It seems enlightenment to me was triggered by the absolute catastrophe of the 30 years war in which 20% of Europeans died, to say god used a war (largely religious war) which killed 20% of Europeans to trigger enlightenment kind of makes me wonder why he couldnt of done it sooner. (partially replying to warrior in that)

I agree we are not (in general) living happy fruitful lives. I recently cut down a tree for a Nigerian man who was going to clean up the tree himself, as soon I as was finished with the tree the man and his family started to clean it up, husband, wife, 3 kids (2 probably under 10), two older ladies and another Nigerian man from a couple houses down. Everyone was smiling, everyone was doing what they were able. It would of been easy for me to laugh at this guy out running a Poulan pro chainsaw in shorts and sandals but honestly I was just jealous.

I've cut a ton of trees down in similar situations, rarely do I see the wife out helping clean up and if the kids are helping they sure are not smiling, I do not think i've ever seen a mother and mother in law out cleaning up, doing what they could to still help the family. We seem to have lost our deep connections with our families, I believe alot of that is due to the fact we no longer rely on each other in the ways we used to. Wives have been replaced by pornography, husbands have been replaced by welfare or the wives career, the few kids we have no longer rely on their parents to play with them, teach them, most parents cant look up from their phones long enough to be bothered by the kids and soon the kids emulate their parents and themselves cannot be bothered to look up from their screens.

I am often deeply saddened when I observe people, young men and women using Tinder to find the next one night fling instead of the love and commitment that should come from a spouse. Parents who cant be bothered to parent. Kids under 10 who already have no desire to spend time with their parents. We seem directionless as a people, lost like the tribe in the desert and the golden calf will not fulfill us. Religion may be the answer, I am open to it. If I ever remarry I would like to find a Christian girl and raise kids in the church, would that make me a hypocrite? Maybe and it may be quite unfair to her. I do not have the answer to the woes of society, only sad observations and a possible way to maybe find my own fulfillment.

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6926276
07/10/20 07:01 PM
07/10/20 07:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,461
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
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white marlin Offline
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Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Religion may be the answer, I am open to it. If I ever remarry I would like to find a Christian girl and raise kids in the church, would that make me a hypocrite? Maybe and it may be quite unfair to her. I do not have the answer to the woes of society, only sad observations and a possible way to maybe find my own fulfillment.


religion *IS* (for me) THE answer.

and I (for one) would Welcome you Home!

it takes a leap of Faith, but OH! What a payoff!

Re: A Sovereign Right over your Body [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6928489
07/13/20 05:29 AM
07/13/20 05:29 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted by Mark June
DS,

Warrior is correct. The Enlightenment with advances in humanistic development are a marvel and we are immeasurably advantaged to have all that we now have.
For instance, at the DTS library, there are 380,000 volumes written about 1 Book. We are encouraged to keep things in proper perspective in spite of our rational humanism.

The marvels will continue, and that is wonderful if you need a better internet connection, or seek medical care, or 1,000's of beneficial things.
Plus, that is where this world is headed, and the driver must like it that way, but would you agree that what Jonathan Edwards saw three hundred years after Renaissance in Europe, that is now called Enlightenment from 1650-800, may have come at the expense of our souls? Today's post-modern repeatedly survey as the most chronically lonely, chemically dependent group since surveys started in our nation. So perhaps all the "stuff" and "medical marvels" didn't resonant to the level you may think?

Your thoughts on that? We're a rich but still not happy nation at so many levels correct?

Blessings
Mark


Enlightenment thinking gave us the end of slavery, the end of slavery gave us the industrial revolution which lead to the technological advancements we have today. It seems enlightenment to me was triggered by the absolute catastrophe of the 30 years war in which 20% of Europeans died, to say god used a war (largely religious war) which killed 20% of Europeans to trigger enlightenment kind of makes me wonder why he couldnt of done it sooner. (partially replying to warrior in that)

I agree we are not (in general) living happy fruitful lives. I recently cut down a tree for a Nigerian man who was going to clean up the tree himself, as soon I as was finished with the tree the man and his family started to clean it up, husband, wife, 3 kids (2 probably under 10), two older ladies and another Nigerian man from a couple houses down. Everyone was smiling, everyone was doing what they were able. It would of been easy for me to laugh at this guy out running a Poulan pro chainsaw in shorts and sandals but honestly I was just jealous.

I've cut a ton of trees down in similar situations, rarely do I see the wife out helping clean up and if the kids are helping they sure are not smiling, I do not think i've ever seen a mother and mother in law out cleaning up, doing what they could to still help the family. We seem to have lost our deep connections with our families, I believe alot of that is due to the fact we no longer rely on each other in the ways we used to. Wives have been replaced by pornography, husbands have been replaced by welfare or the wives career, the few kids we have no longer rely on their parents to play with them, teach them, most parents cant look up from their phones long enough to be bothered by the kids and soon the kids emulate their parents and themselves cannot be bothered to look up from their screens.

I am often deeply saddened when I observe people, young men and women using Tinder to find the next one night fling instead of the love and commitment that should come from a spouse. Parents who cant be bothered to parent. Kids under 10 who already have no desire to spend time with their parents. We seem directionless as a people, lost like the tribe in the desert and the golden calf will not fulfill us. Religion may be the answer, I am open to it. If I ever remarry I would like to find a Christian girl and raise kids in the church, would that make me a hypocrite? Maybe and it may be quite unfair to her. I do not have the answer to the woes of society, only sad observations and a possible way to maybe find my own fulfillment.


You and I have much in common ground. I read your post and you are saddened by cultural developments that have wreaked havoc in the human spirit. Most people are. Not all, but most, and that's a good thing.

My view of the Enlightenment is same as yours, "after the fact," since the era is defined as 17-19th century progression of anthropology in the Western culture. For reasons known only to God, humankind invented, discovered, and "enlightened" the minds of countless billions during this time, and we are all recipients of those discoveries, inventions, "modern miracles," and humanism today. The intriguing part is why did humankind in the advancing cultures in Europe and the New Americas become so enamored with the marvels of man, and so disillusioned with the Revelations from God? We're taught this was in large measure as a result of the immense abuses of the church/state (often one and the same) during the 1,000 years of Medieval Period before it. After all, there's a reason those who lived in the 15-17th centuries looked back, and saw an early church until about 500-600AD as being faithful to the kingdom, and then 1,000 years of "evil" in the church. Just good history to understand as we all try and figure out more to life than what TV show to watch. Time marches on, with or without us.

Your observations of culture are accurate and I think perhaps the social ills you explain have a deep entanglement in the human condition that can't be explained by medicine, or by governmental programs. My proof source: Medicine is a science designed to diagnose, and treat. We have millions now diagnosed and millions now treated, and that's a miracle for sure, but unless we get more diagnosis and more treatments, the results are not really very good as far as the prognosis! Because, the liberal has now been so often replaced by apathy, because even the diagnosed and treated so often don't see a light at the end of the tunnel after being diagnosed and treated????? = they have no hope.

I offer; suicides and pornography and their combined consequences monstrously dwarf Covid-19 as our national issues. It's sad how many suicides now occur among the most affluent in our society. But, how can that be? They have "everything."

I also offer the two things all humans crave;
A. The need to be loved.
B. The need to be forgiven

Our beautiful America is struggling with these two issues, but I have faith in our Creator, that all is well. Might not be pretty. Might not be how we'd do it. But then again, we didn't get us here, so while our opinion is valid to us, that's about where it stops. Valid. Besides, for some reason, God just seems to do His best work when there are impossible odds. I figure it looks impossible to us, but He just smiles and does. David and Gideon were two of the countless who show us proof of that.

DS,
We see eye to eye brother on much it seems.
I just argue, as one whose eyes have been opened (and not by me, I can assure you);
We certainly need to define "everything," because piling up stuff, doesn't seem to be the way to heaven on earth as sold. It's comfortable, but sure not heaven.

All we can do is all we can do, right? Just the other day, the 7 year grandson asked me, "Papa, how come you don't say bad words?" From a 7 year old? It's all around our kids, which does get my hackles flared, because our cultural influences seem so pitted against morality. Adults don't seem to be encouraged to teach little ones (as you mention), but we can; "Kids, follow papa outside. We're going fishing!"

Good post, thank you.
Blessings,
Mark

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