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Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6943459
07/26/20 01:28 PM
07/26/20 01:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 20,036
Wisconsin
T
The Beav Offline
trapper
The Beav  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 20,036
Wisconsin
I could tell you a few stories about WS.


The forum Know It All according to Muskrat
Re: Government Trappers [Re: Mark June] #6948099
07/30/20 06:20 PM
07/30/20 06:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 930
Central/Western Texas
AuthorTrapper Offline OP
trapper
AuthorTrapper  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 930
Central/Western Texas
Originally Posted by Mark June
AuthorTrapper,

Let's chat soon.

Blessings!
Mark

Yes sir!

Re: Government Trappers [Re: MChewk] #6948272
07/30/20 08:18 PM
07/30/20 08:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,692
Central NC
T
traprjohn Offline
trapper
traprjohn  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,692
Central NC
Originally Posted by MChewk
John could you briefly cover some of the benefits...truck traps health care that they offered?


Mike they supply all gear including truck with trailer and 4 wheeler.
Since the APHIS state purchaser and I met at convention and trapper ed class he had me build a dozen drowning rods with 2 t-stakes per rod for all 20 Fed trappers in NC.

Their health care was only $50 less than what I had from the local independent insurance guy in town.

I started shopping in other states, since leaving NC was what we really wanted and found the salaries varied greatly too.


www.sevenoakstrappingsupplies.com for trap mods and gear
The 10 Commandments are not suggestions.
Buy a soldiers meal EVERY chance you can.

Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6948900
07/31/20 10:45 AM
07/31/20 10:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,500
Northern Illinois
M
MChewk Offline
trapper
MChewk  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,500
Northern Illinois
Thanks John...the salaries really caught my eye. Alot of hard word for 15 bucks an hour....you’d think health care dentist and eyes would be a BETTER part of the package?

Re: Government Trappers [Re: The Beav] #6948906
07/31/20 10:59 AM
07/31/20 10:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,805
Moved to Fbks, Ak.
M
martentrapper Offline
trapper
martentrapper  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,805
Moved to Fbks, Ak.
Originally Posted by The Beav
I could tell you a few stories about WS.


Are you still doing fox removal on the north slope in Alaska, Beav?

Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6948953
07/31/20 11:53 AM
07/31/20 11:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 20,036
Wisconsin
T
The Beav Offline
trapper
The Beav  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 20,036
Wisconsin
The son In law and the boys went for a drive up to Dead Horse the other day saw at lest 20 fox along the way. Some silvers and some cross fox but most were of the red fox color.

Be a long way to kill fox. LOL


The forum Know It All according to Muskrat
Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6948954
07/31/20 11:54 AM
07/31/20 11:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 20,036
Wisconsin
T
The Beav Offline
trapper
The Beav  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 20,036
Wisconsin
I know a WS trapper that his total beaver catch for the year was 75. You call that hard work LOL


The forum Know It All according to Muskrat
Re: Government Trappers [Re: The Beav] #6948966
07/31/20 12:08 PM
07/31/20 12:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,845
MN
D
Donnersurvivor Offline
trapper
Donnersurvivor  Offline
trapper
D

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,845
MN
Originally Posted by The Beav
I know a WS trapper that his total beaver catch for the year was 75. You call that hard work LOL


If you can hit 75 and then take the rest of the year off sign me.

Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6949564
07/31/20 07:49 PM
07/31/20 07:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 18,918
Alabama (Bama for short) 108 y...
Jtrapper Offline
trapper
Jtrapper  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 18,918
Alabama (Bama for short) 108 y...
I know a WS trapper that his total beaver catch for the year was 75. You call that hard work LOL

Must not have alot of beaver problems, either not alot to start with OR he's kept them beat back to the
point there isn't many in the location's he has to manage anymore.

Pretty sure whoever it is/was does ALOT of other work beside just beaver issue's.


But don't let me ruin your story.


Not my circus, not my clowns.
Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6949594
07/31/20 08:11 PM
07/31/20 08:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 237
MT
B
bbasher Offline
trapper
bbasher  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 237
MT
Nothing like a bunch of trappers complaining on the internet about other trappers!

Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6949690
07/31/20 08:53 PM
07/31/20 08:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,245
lovington NM
T
TravC Offline
"MCnasty"
TravC  Offline
"MCnasty"
T

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,245
lovington NM
Here we go


There i said it....
Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6949698
07/31/20 08:55 PM
07/31/20 08:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 247
WYOMING
J
John Graham Offline
trapper
John Graham  Offline
trapper
J

Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 247
WYOMING
Wildlife Services USDA/APHIS (Government) trappers are in some cases, the only form of predator control a lot of western ranchers have against predators. I've always worked private or county predator programs, but I've worked with, and bordered with plenty of good, hard working guys over the years. They work for low pay, and take care of a lot of producers usually. I don't know much about eastern beaver work, but I DO know something about coyotes. There are some very gifted WS Trappers out there, I assure you.

Re: Government Trappers [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6950228
08/01/20 07:42 AM
08/01/20 07:42 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 32,499
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline
trapper
330-Trapper  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 32,499
Minnesota
Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted by The Beav
I know a WS trapper that his total beaver catch for the year was 75. You call that hard work LOL


If you can hit 75 and then take the rest of the year off sign me.

wink


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6950259
08/01/20 08:34 AM
08/01/20 08:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,500
Northern Illinois
M
MChewk Offline
trapper
MChewk  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,500
Northern Illinois
Not bashing anyone just curious about their pay and benefits. Hope you guys have a good day.

Re: Government Trappers [Re: Donnersurvivor] #6950269
08/01/20 08:48 AM
08/01/20 08:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,692
Central NC
T
traprjohn Offline
trapper
traprjohn  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,692
Central NC
Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
Originally Posted by The Beav
I know a WS trapper that his total beaver catch for the year was 75. You call that hard work LOL


If you can hit 75 and then take the rest of the year off sign me.


Our local guy avg 1-3/day (almost as much as me) on top of goose removal and shooting deer off airport runways. I know he wasn’t a slouch.


www.sevenoakstrappingsupplies.com for trap mods and gear
The 10 Commandments are not suggestions.
Buy a soldiers meal EVERY chance you can.

Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6950273
08/01/20 08:52 AM
08/01/20 08:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,692
Central NC
T
traprjohn Offline
trapper
traprjohn  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,692
Central NC
Plus the amount of forms and reports he had to do , took another hr once home.


www.sevenoakstrappingsupplies.com for trap mods and gear
The 10 Commandments are not suggestions.
Buy a soldiers meal EVERY chance you can.

Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6950745
08/01/20 05:53 PM
08/01/20 05:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 103
West Texas
B
Btoutdoors Offline
trapper
Btoutdoors  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 103
West Texas
I was one for 28 years, 14 years as a trapper and 14 years as gunner out of a super cub. Trapping wages in Texas are Terrible,I think starting wages are around 25k a year. The gunning position I had was much better as it is a federal job.

Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6951133
08/01/20 10:57 PM
08/01/20 10:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 347
McCamey,TX usa
Govtrapper Offline
trapper
Govtrapper  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 347
McCamey,TX usa
I just started back with wildlife services this year. Im glad to be back. Pay sucks. But we live simple. All you need here in texas is a high school diploma. Author trapper if you need any help hollar at me

Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6952707
08/03/20 03:26 PM
08/03/20 03:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 88
South Dakota
S
Scott Huber Offline
trapper
Scott Huber  Offline
trapper
S

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 88
South Dakota
Warning! This post is going to be lengthy so if you don't want to read about the pros and cons of being a state and Federal trapper, skip over this post.

Government and state trapper jobs are not what they once were in many states. These jobs are under constant pressure both internally and externally by those with limited to no actual predator control experience to change the manner in which predator control is conducted. Unfortunately, many of these managers wrongly believe they have a better understanding of these issues than the guys/gals in the field with experience simply because they have a degree in wildlife management. The history of the SD Animal Damage Control program has proven the damage that inexperienced management can cause to what once was considered a highly efficient and cost effective program.

I would look long and hard at the entire program and the management structure that guides it before you make any hard fast employment decisions. Employee turnover in recent years, in contrast to previous years under better management, is proof positive that these jobs are not what they once were.

Here is a little of what I have seen in 25 years of being a state trapper in SD and 4 years as a county trapper in WY. For the record, I started trapping fox in 1972, coyotes shortly after that, and became a SD state trapper in 1986.

What is my motive you may ask? First to inform potential employees what they might be facing regarding state and federal predator control jobs and to state the facts of what happens to a predator control program when it is mismanaged by the inexperienced. I understand that this is political in nature but I believe it is important for trappers considering these jobs to understand what they might be getting into. I will choose my words carefully and refrain from any personal attacks on individuals (attacking the message and the actions taken and not the messenger) so I ask for a degree of levity as there is a lot of research that went into gathering this information.

First let me start out by stating that I was forced to resign from SD in 2011 for voicing public opposition to a plan by the GFP Administration to reprioritize the ADC program away from predator and nuisance animal control towards other Department duties that the Administration deemed more important. It is also important to point out the decision to reprioritize the duties of the predator control program in 2009 was contrary to state statutes mandating predator control services. The recent actions by our current Governor to try to correct this problem is proof of the damage caused by an inexperienced GFP Administration and regional management structure who placed their own personal agendas ahead of state mandated responsibilities. Absent in all of this is specific goals and objectives for the program driven by the informed consent of the livestock producers and citizens of this state.

Now before you accuse me of "sour grapes" or being a "disgruntled former employee" (those who can't debate discredit) which has been stated by those defending an inadequate predator control program, I will present the facts and the sources for that information to prove what happens to a predator control program when the management falls into the wrong hands. I absolutely welcome any fact checks and questions to the contrary in regards to what I am about to present. You can make up your own minds whether this is "sour grapes" or a genuine concern for the livestock producers and the need for improvement in providing quality predator control service.

Let's start with a little history so you know how the program has changed over the years. When I started out we had 17 to 18 full time "state trappers" in the state with a state director and two field supervisors. Years later it was decided to place the predator control program under the Regional structure (4 Regions in the state) due to funding issues at the time. This placed the management of the predator and nuisance animal control program in the hands of those with no predator control experience and different priorities. To assist with the budget situation, we were given a directive to work 15% non ADC duties (other department duties) which was not a problem for most of us as long as predator control remained a priority. I was part of the decision to Regionalize the program but not without insisting on a person at the top with predator control experience with the authority to guide the entire process. We all knew the potential problem that could occur if the management of the predator control program fell into the wrong inexperienced hands and that is just what happened. This state director position at the helm never happened and we watched as the bricks of the program continued to crumble and fall from that point on based on reprioritization of duties.

In 2009, a new GFP Administration took this a step further when they decided to merge the predator control program with the Wildlife Damage Management Program, which covered deer, elk, goose, and turkey depredation, into an all encompassing Wildlife Damage Management Program. They also reduced predator control services statewide by 32%. There was not a public or livestock producer input process into this decision. The GFP administration made the decision and they started changing their stories to justify it ("it's about funding", "it's not about funding it's about reprioritization" (when livestock producers came up with ideas to improve funding), "this decision was justified based on a reduction in complaints"). Typical of their deceptive antics, they just kept throwing crap against the wall to see what would stick. It has now been discovered that this was a cleverly disguised effort by that GFP Administration to phase the predator and nuisance animal control side of the program out while expanding the wildlife damage side of the program. Reprioritization was the truthful justification.

During the restructuring of the ADC program in 2009, employees were basically forced to choose between providing quality predator and nuisance animal control service or supporting a system that was guaranteed to provide poor quality service. Most tried to keep their disgust to themselves and "ride for the brand" while being placed in the position of watching the quality of service they could provide erode away. I chose to voice public opposition and rally support against their decision and it cost me my job. Despite the price I paid, I wouldn't do anything any different today. You either believe in what you are doing or you don't. I knew I couldn't work for a management structure that was clueless in running an effective predator control program.

Currently, there is 28 Wildlife Damage Specialist positions in the state being supervised by a bloated management structure consisting of 17 positions of management above these 28 WDMs positions. Within this management structure, only 1 person has adequate predator and nuisance animal control field experience. Every problem begins and ends with this management structure which desperately needs to be changed. Who would have thought that experience would carry such little value?

In fairness, I also have to state that it was not the fault of some of these managers that their jobs entailed management of a program they had no experience in. This was due to decisions that were made at the Administrative level of GFP. There is lots of good men and women that occupy these management positions they just don't have the experience they need in predator control to fully understand those issues.

So what is the proof of mismanagement you ask?

In 2009, in Region 1, which is basically the western 1/3 of SD, during the 32% reduction in predator control services they created 4 trapper districts where there were 7 trapper districts historically. This area included the counties of Butte, Harding, Meade, and Perkins Counties which were the historic sheep producing counties in western SD. Due to the coyote population explosion and corresponding livestock losses that occurred, within 3 years they had to reinstate 8 trapper districts but by then the damage was already done. Coyote populations had increased 400% in these counties between 2009 and 2015 (proven by WS aerial hunting records) and livestock losses increased accordingly (according to USDA statistics and landowner contacts). These 4 counties lost 30% of their sheep production in years of high lamb and wool prices (according to county livestock statistics) primarily due to this 400% increase in coyote population levels.

As an example, in Harding County, for 30 years coyote populations were kept below .5 coyotes killed per hour of aerial hunting. Between 2009 and 2015, coyote populations had reached the point of saturation where the same plane was now killing over 5 coyotes per hour. That constitutes a 1000% increase in coyote population levels due to mismanagement. As further proof, calf kills which were unheard of in Harding County are now a result of this excessive coyote population. Sheep numbers declined accordingly as one sheep producer claimed "predator control in Harding County is the best it's been in years". One can only conclude that this attitude was driven by the self serving idea that the less sheep producers there were in the county, the more service would be available for the ones that remained. Meanwhile the reduction in sheep contributed to a loss of predator control revenue for the local predator control district.

It is important to point out that the success of a predator control program is based on reducing coyote populations in historic problem areas to the point where lamb losses per producer are below 5%. This requires timely and seasonal removal of coyote pairs and dens in historic problem areas and keeping coyote populations at a point where, even with exceptional ground crews, the plane is averaging less than a coyote per hour.

Because of the effective predator control program we had in Southern Campbell County WY, we kept lamb losses below 2.6% on 29,000 mostly range lambing sheep based on a 3 year survey of the producers themselves. We took over 60% of our coyotes on the ground and kept the coyote population near an average of 1 coyote killed per hour of aerial hunting with an exceptionally talented aerial hunting pilot. This county program was run by a predator board that was "all in" on livestock protection by killing coyotes. Best years of my life.

There will always be cutthroat critics that say "gee how did the coyote population get so out of control" if you kill a lot of coyotes or "is that all you killed" if you keep their populations low enough. The only measure of success you have that matters is livestock numbers and low coyote populations. Show me a man that takes lots of coyote dens and I will show you a man that didn't OR COULDN'T (due to workload and resources available) kill enough bred females.

The coyote population and corresponding livestock loss situation would have gotten far worse than it did in SD if not for the stellar aerial hunting program provided by Wildlife Services, which was not under GFP mismanagement. Despite their excellent service and efficiency, Wildlife Services simply had too much ground to cover with a single plane at the time. Since then they hired another full time pilot and had numerous contracts with private pilots but again, the damage was already done with a dramatic increase in coyote numbers and a decrease of ground efforts.

According to USDA statistics (survey conducted every 5 years) , calf losses in the state were kept below 2600 head for 20 years. Between 2010 and 2015, calf losses in the state increased 110% to 5770 calves killed by coyotes. This directly corresponds to the decrease in timely predator control services in historic problem areas which had previously prevented many of those losses.

Next, historically the ADC program in SD took 51% of their coyotes on the ground for over 25 years. Since the era of mismanagement, ground take of coyotes in contrast to aerial take has declined to 34% with 28 employees per FY "19" GFP report. It is widely known that quality predator control services, where livestock losses are kept to a minimum, are provided by a near equal level of ground and aerial coyote take. The best ADC men I know, based on their workload and livestock losses, will take between 50% and 70% of their coyotes on the ground relative to an average of 45 hours of aerial hunting time (70 hours of flight time including ferry time). One individual actually reached 80% of the coyotes taken on the ground. That is a level of performance that will not be duplicated for some time. Ironically, that guy lost his job too.

Yes I know about the variables involved here with aerial success as well as the limiting factors such as standing crops, timbered areas, rough broken terrain,
pilot and gunner efficiency, ground crew effectiveness, etc. I am talking about average aerial hunting conditions in western SD and NE WY. The plane is a very important tool but is only half of the equation in a successful predator control program. The highest level of performance is realized when aerial hunting and ground efforts are close to equal. Unfortunately, inexperienced management doesn't realize this fact either. Imperative February through April removal of coyote pairs in historic problem areas is best performed by a combination of ground methods and aerial hunting. If they can be killed by the plane, they can be killed on the ground, period.

According to the same County by Count FY "19" SD ADC program report, there was 25 coyotes or less taken on the ground in 37 of the 65 counties in the state receiving service. Try defending that! Is it any wonder why these reports were discontinued after 2010? Prior to 2010, both quarterly and annual reports were sent to various livestock organizations and county commissioners, who are paying for 20% of the program, which contained coyotes and fox taken and by what methods, number of complaints, livestock losses, resources allocated, resources committed, beaver complaints, beaver taken, etc. etc.

Interestingly, in recent years a detailed COUNTY BY COUNTY report with this same information was requested by the SD Sheep Growers Association. This request was denied by GFP (they knew it would expose the results of mismanagement). The SDSGA then took the issue to the state hearing examiner's office (State equivalent of a Federal FOIA) and GFP was forced to provide the information. When the information was received, it was obvious why the previous request had been denied. These reports showed how service quality had declined, how livestock losses had increased, and created justification for a program the Administration wanted to get rid of despite state statutes mandating predator control services.

Now it is imperative to understand there is a number of highly dedicated professional predator control service providers in this state both in the experienced and newly hired categories. This is not a reflection on "MOST" of them, it is a reflection on the mismanagement of the program that reprioritized these employees towards other duties they felt were more important. It is a reflection of the mismanagement that hired wildlife biology degrees over trapping experience and agriculture backgrounds. It is a reflection of the mismanagement that did not have the experience required to train these guys properly and show them the most efficient and cost effective means of providing predator control services and what tools to use in what situations.

There was a law on the books that stated that the GFP Secretary, Secretary of Agriculture, and the Animal Damage Control Supervisor would meet annually to "develop program priorities". It was called the Animal Damage Control Policy Review Committee. A number of livestock producers introduced a bill to expand this committee to include many of the livestock organizations in the state. The idea was to hold GFP accountable to those who were paying the bill. This bill passed the House Ag and Natural Resource Committee with flying colors but was amended on the Senate floor to read "policy ADVISORY committee" and the words "develop program priorities" were changed to "PROVIDE RECOMMENDATOINS". What does that tell you about accountability and transparency of the SD ADC program? CONTROL THE NARRATIVE!

When giving presentations to this committee, they only present the information they believe is favorable to the program such as complaints worked, dollars spent, total coyotes killed, etc. rather than far more important information such as livestock losses, complaint trends, and air to ground coyote take. Certainly no measure of how efficiently complaints are being handled. We even found that they had included contract aerial hunting coyote take and permitted aerial hunting
coyote take in the GFP take category (ground take implied) to inflate the ground numbers. Wildlife Services aerial coyote taken and predator district aerial hunting coyote take were correctly separated.

This past year the Wildlife Damage Management Program was reviewed by the Wildlife Management Institute. The Wildlife Management Institute (WMI) Review committee consisted of 3 or 4 retired or nearly retired wildlife managers from different states with very limited to no actual predator control field experience. We wanted the program to be reviewed by someone from USDA/APHIS/WILDLIFE SERVICES with predator control experience and were highly suspicious of the potential outcome of the review by the WMI for that reason. After all, how many contracts do you think they would get if they gave many bad reviews?

We provided the WMI with USDA livestock loss data, Wildlife Services aerial hunting data, the decline in livestock inventories from county courthouse statistics, comparisons between the old and new programs such as customer satisfaction surveys of the old program that showed an 82% response with 91% customer satisfaction. They didn't reference any of it in their final review. They basically rubber stamped what GFP provided them and gave them a decent review despite the fact that WMI admitted that GFP had no stated goals or objectives for the program. How can you give a good review to a program with no stated goals or objectives and no way to measure it due to a lack of accurate reports?? You tell me! CONTROL THE NARRATIVE!!

Another vivid example of mismanagement is in employee turnover. The counties of Harding and Perkins in NW SD had 3 different trappers in those counties for over 28 years. After the era of mismanagement started in 2009, there has been 12 different trappers in those same 3 counties.

What is the solution? Simple, the program needs to be managed by an experienced management structure rather than a management structure consisting of biologists and conservation officers with no predator control experience, different priorities, and different agendas. Should be common sense but it's not.

As I said at the beginning, state and federal ADC programs are not what they once were. Again, I welcome any questions or challenges to any of the information I have provided. Many of us knew what would happen to the coyote population in this state and the corresponding livestock losses that would occur before it happened as a result from the era of mismanagement that started in 2009.

Hope this gives you some insight into what a government or state trapper job might entail.


Scott Huber

Re: Government Trappers [Re: AuthorTrapper] #6952743
08/03/20 04:14 PM
08/03/20 04:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 20,036
Wisconsin
T
The Beav Offline
trapper
The Beav  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 20,036
Wisconsin
It's been a long time since I heard your name. You must be retired with that huge Government check coming In every month. LOL


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