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Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991323
09/15/20 03:01 PM
09/15/20 03:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 876
Aliceville, Kansas
Yukon John Offline
trapper
Yukon John  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 876
Aliceville, Kansas
I think some are confusing reasoning, with intelligence...or maybe I am. Lol


"I'm a man.. I'm 40!"-Mike Gundy
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991333
09/15/20 03:22 PM
09/15/20 03:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,057
Southeast Idaho
F
Furvor Offline
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Furvor  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,057
Southeast Idaho
While sitting in a waiting room one time I read an article in National Geography Magazine article about bird intelligence. Examples cited included birds dropping things on rocks and a bird (crow I think) that learned which things to bring to a woman to please her. The article said think twice before you say "bird brain."


Retired production cost analyst and budgeting supervisor, born December1931
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991429
09/15/20 05:44 PM
09/15/20 05:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 570
ny
G
gcs Offline
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gcs  Offline
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G

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 570
ny
Ravens are the border collies of the bird world, lol

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6991430
09/15/20 05:45 PM
09/15/20 05:45 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,038
Mn
N
nightlife Offline
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nightlife  Offline
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N

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,038
Mn
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by nightlife
Had a walker coon hound that the first time I put him on a chain after we moved to the new place immediately did the run around the stake but and ended up snubbed right up to the post, well he stopped barking, sat down and stared at that post for several minutes then got up and walked the other way around to unwind himself and he never did it again, if that’s not reasoning tell me what is it, and that’s just one thing

Can animals reason I would say yes, not on the order of humans but it’s there more so in some then in others, and in my opinion stronger in predators then herbivores


Nice try. If he was wound up tight there wasn’t anywhere else to go.


You have obviously never had a dog on a chain attached to a pole or tree if you think that because every other one I have ever seen will just sit there and bark till someone comes and releases them or just give up and lay there





�Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks.�
― Robert A. Heinlein
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nightlife] #6991440
09/15/20 06:06 PM
09/15/20 06:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by nightlife
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper


Nice try. If he was wound up tight there wasn’t anywhere else to go.


You have obviously never had a dog on a chain attached to a pole or tree if you think that because every other one I have ever seen will just sit there and bark till someone comes and releases them or just give up and lay there


That’s why I would never buy a dog from MN. lol



-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991450
09/15/20 06:25 PM
09/15/20 06:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,009
100 Mile House, BC Can
bctomcat Offline
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bctomcat  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,009
100 Mile House, BC Can
Based on this experience and a few others I believe some animals have reasoning ability.

On the side of an old road wolverine were known to travel I build a four foot long log culvert cubby with a plywood top cover, placed a beaver carcass in the center and a 330 trap at either end. On a subsequent check I found that a couple of wolverine, travelling together, had approached the set and one got caught. As indicated by tracks in the snow the second animal backed off and went to the other end of the set where it approached the trap. It appeared that it had started to enter the trap but the trigger was frozen into the snow and did not fire. As the trigger wires were not bent inward even slightly this indicated to me the animal sensed danger. The wolverine then backed off and went to the side of the cubby and dug through one foot of frozen ground to get the bait. From this I tend to believe that, although they are very brash and bold, they and others, especially predators have some ability to detect danger.


The only constant in trapping is change so keep learning.






Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991453
09/15/20 06:29 PM
09/15/20 06:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
We all have that, is it really reasoning?



-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: bctomcat] #6991456
09/15/20 06:34 PM
09/15/20 06:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by bctomcat
Based on this experience and a few others I believe some animals have reasoning ability.

On the side of an old road wolverine were known to travel I build a four foot long log culvert cubby with a plywood top cover, placed a beaver carcass in the center and a 330 trap at either end. On a subsequent check I found that a couple of wolverine, travelling together, had approached the set and one got caught. As indicated by tracks in the snow the second animal backed off and went to the other end of the set where it approached the trap. It appeared that it had started to enter the trap but the trigger was frozen into the snow and did not fire. As the trigger wires were not bent inward even slightly this indicated to me the animal sensed danger. The wolverine then backed off and went to the side of the cubby and dug through one foot of frozen ground to get the bait. From this I tend to believe that, although they are very brash and bold, they and others, especially predators have some ability to detect danger.


The reasoning would be, “Is that a beaver in there? No way it should be in there, no sign of them anywhere else, somebody must have put it in here to trap me.”

You know, understanding that there is no free lunch.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 09/15/20 06:35 PM.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991469
09/15/20 07:00 PM
09/15/20 07:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 376
mo.
N
nate Offline OP
trapper
nate  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 376
mo.
Dictionary

Screenshot_20200915-175640.png
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: charles] #6991473
09/15/20 07:03 PM
09/15/20 07:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,032
La Vernia & Dallas TX
Mark June Offline
trapper
Mark June  Offline
trapper

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,032
La Vernia & Dallas TX
Originally Posted by charles
For more on this topic, read The Decent of Man by Charles Darwin. He compares man development to animal development. Written in the mid 1800s but still interesting.


No need to read it Charles, we believe what we watch all around us as truth. John Locke was way ahead of Charles.

You do realize there was another (some say friend - some say colleague - some say both) man deeply interested in Darwin's work. Karl Marx. The man who had 9 people at his funeral and today has a world wide movement in his honor. He and Darwin's religion.

From Marx's memoires;

"Marx agreed to take into great consideration Darwin’s thesis about the evolution of living beings. In a letter from December 19, 1860 addressed to his friend and colleague Friedrich Engels, Marx states that Darwin’s book contains “the basis in natural history for our view.” In a different letter to activist Ferdinand Lassalle (January 16, 1861), Marx concludes that “Darwin’s book is very important and serves me as a basis in natural science for the class struggle in history.” As such, Marx agreed with Darwin that society, like the living beings on Earth, is the result of historical processes of change."

(I've read Darwin a number of times, and wrote a thesis on a comparable subject back in the 1980's). I enjoy and appreciate the sciences, but I don't affirm what either of these men planted deep in our world. In fact, I strongly disagree.

Blessings,
Mark


Dallas Theological Seminary
https://www.dts.edu
https://www.markjuneslures.com/
Predator Trapping Academy Host - 2021 is booked



Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Mark June] #6991484
09/15/20 07:19 PM
09/15/20 07:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 296
South West Pennsylvania
W
Wingshot Offline
trapper
Wingshot  Offline
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W

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 296
South West Pennsylvania
I had an English Setter who had “his” spot on the couch. He didn’t like it if someone was sitting in his spot. My wife was there one evening and he was obviously mad about that so he ran through the living room, dining room and into the hall where the front door is and carried on like he wanted out. The wife gets up and goes through the opening directly to the hall to accommodate him. He doubles back and beats her to the “spot” on the couch. He could pick up a glass of milk and sneak off with it without spilling a drop too. I don’t know about reasoning, but he was smarter than a lot of people.




Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991487
09/15/20 07:23 PM
09/15/20 07:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland

Originally Posted by nate
Dictionary



The logical thing to do would have been simply move the trap instead of digging into a foot of frozen ground, but keep trying.



-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6991617
09/15/20 09:35 PM
09/15/20 09:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 376
mo.
N
nate Offline OP
trapper
nate  Offline OP
trapper
N

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 376
mo.
Logic isn't simple. logic would be get rid of fake news. But all kidding aside when I was a youngster i had several traps set aside. Still do on occasion.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6991618
09/15/20 09:38 PM
09/15/20 09:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 425
Perry, NY
D
Dana I Online content
trapper
Dana I  Online Content
trapper
D

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 425
Perry, NY
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper

Originally Posted by nate
Dictionary



The logical thing to do would have been simply move the trap instead of digging into a foot of frozen ground, but keep trying.


Or logic would say... I don't know what this is but it doesn't seem right so I will avoid it. The "logic" you are using requires the intelligence of knowing what a trap is and how it works.

Leftlane I agree on the horses, anyone who thinks animals don't have the ability to reason has never spent much time in the saddle.

In my opinion all animals have the ability to reason its just a matter of how developed that ability is. Heck not even all people have the same ability. Some here seem to think that just because they are not able to reason on the same level as people that they can't do it at all.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Boco] #6991629
09/15/20 10:04 PM
09/15/20 10:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 354
virginia,MN
B
beavert Offline
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beavert  Offline
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B

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 354
virginia,MN
Originally Posted by Boco
Bears also eat plywood,gas cans and skidoo seats.
They must be thinking - if he cant get gas and has no comfortable seat he wont be able to run that snowmachine.

Lol!

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991639
09/15/20 10:10 PM
09/15/20 10:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 59
West Virginia
C
Choo Offline
trapper
Choo  Offline
trapper
C

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 59
West Virginia
There are lots of examples of animals using tools to gather food ex. primates, birds, dolphins. While some may say that is a learned behavior it would have taken the original animal that discovered that method some degree of thought and reasoning in order to replicate it. I think many of you are giving animals to little a credit in what they are capable of doing and feeling. Many humans act no better then animals in my opinion. While I do believe animals some animals are capable of thought and reasoning I still believe that we were put here with domain over them. That responsibility is not something that I take lightly, the animals I raise, and or harvest I do so with respect and thanks.

Last edited by Choo; 09/15/20 10:11 PM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Boco] #6991708
09/16/20 12:26 AM
09/16/20 12:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,831
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
trapper
Posco  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,831
Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted by Boco
Bears also eat plywood,gas cans and skidoo seats.
They must be thinking - if he cant get gas and has no comfortable seat he wont be able to run that snowmachine.

They're innately inquisitive animals.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Dana I] #6991743
09/16/20 05:17 AM
09/16/20 05:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by Dana I


Or logic would say... I don't know what this is but it doesn't seem right so I will avoid it. The "logic" you are using requires the intelligence of knowing what a trap is and how it works.

Leftlane I agree on the horses, anyone who thinks animals don't have the ability to reason has never spent much time in the saddle.

In my opinion all animals have the ability to reason its just a matter of how developed that ability is. Heck not even all people have the same ability. Some here seem to think that just because they are not able to reason on the same level as people that they can't do it at all.


A wolverine walking out on a weak limb senses danger and decides to stop and go back, is that instinct or reason?


We used to board horses for a guy down the road from us. I’ve never been to a show or seen them work cattle but from what I can tell they have instincts and whatever that gentlemen taught them what to do. They never opened a gate or fed and watered themselves and they watched me do it twice a day.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 09/16/20 05:18 AM.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991761
09/16/20 05:59 AM
09/16/20 05:59 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 425
Perry, NY
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Dana I Online content
trapper
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Posts: 425
Perry, NY
You have not worked with many horses if you haven't come across one that figured out how to open a gate. I have seen a several that had to have latches that were PHYSICALLY impossible for them to operate as the horse would figure out a way to open it otherwise.

Your wolverine example is most likely instinct. Reason would come next time he comes through and decides to take a different route because he now knows that that one is dangerous. Without some small amount of reasoning ability they would keep making the same mistakes over and over. He depended on instinct to get himself out of the current situation, he learned it was dangerous and would use reasoning to avoid the situation in the future.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Dana I] #6991766
09/16/20 06:09 AM
09/16/20 06:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by Dana I
You have not worked with many horses if you haven't come across one that figured out how to open a gate. I have seen a several that had to have latches that were PHYSICALLY impossible for them to operate as the horse would figure out a way to open it otherwise.

Your wolverine example is most likely instinct. Reason would come next time he comes through and decides to take a different route because he now knows that that one is dangerous. Without some small amount of reasoning ability they would keep making the same mistakes over and over. He depended on instinct to get himself out of the current situation, he learned it was dangerous and would use reasoning to avoid the situation in the future.


We’ll just have to agree to disagree. Remembering isn’t reasoning, it’s the reason animals can be trained but it isn’t the same as reasoning thought.



-Goofy-
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