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Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Leftlane] #6991991
09/16/20 10:31 AM
09/16/20 10:31 AM
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Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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HobbieTrapper  Offline
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by Leftlane
And when they train themselves? Our definition of reasoning could vary a little bit I guess?


Dog paws at a lever, food falls out. One day, food doesn’t fall out. It stops pawing at the lever. Does it know it’s empty or does it see a plastic bag has blocked the hole and resolve the problem or does it just stop because there is nothing coming out when it paws the lever?

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 09/16/20 10:53 AM.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991994
09/16/20 10:35 AM
09/16/20 10:35 AM
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Posts: 2,159
Wyoming
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cmcf Offline
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Learning to sign is as you say learned behavior. However participation in a conversation cannot be learned behavior as the thread of the conversation has an infinite number of pathways it can take.


Go as far as you can see, and you will see farther
Zig Ziglar
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: cmcf] #6992004
09/16/20 10:47 AM
09/16/20 10:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Originally Posted by cmcf
Learning to sign is as you say learned behavior. However participation in a conversation cannot be learned behavior as the thread of the conversation has an infinite number of pathways it can take.


Not true, conversations can be led. Lawyers practice it all the time when they can get away with it.



-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992005
09/16/20 10:49 AM
09/16/20 10:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,049
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
Man, this is fun! What else you got?



-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992031
09/16/20 11:43 AM
09/16/20 11:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 876
Aliceville, Kansas
Yukon John Offline
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Yukon John  Offline
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Aliceville, Kansas
Lol


"I'm a man.. I'm 40!"-Mike Gundy
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992054
09/16/20 12:07 PM
09/16/20 12:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 30,117
McGrath, AK
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white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
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McGrath, AK
Animals ......other than humans....are not self-aware. They have no idea that they will someday die. We have that innate knowledge. I think animals can learn, and certainly are driven by instinct, but I do not believe they have the capacity to reason.

Birds may be in a different category...slightly.

Look at the video below. Theses animals don't even recognize themselves, and don't have the ability to reason out the situation they are in.



Mean As Nails
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992103
09/16/20 01:14 PM
09/16/20 01:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 376
mo.
N
nate Offline OP
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mo.
Maybe maybe not.

Screenshot_20200916-120208.png
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992109
09/16/20 01:25 PM
09/16/20 01:25 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Wow! I’m flattered.

However, the thread title “when YOU get it wrong” says it all.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 09/16/20 01:34 PM.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992110
09/16/20 01:26 PM
09/16/20 01:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,835
Marion Kansas
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Yes sir Offline
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No matter what unique circumstances you want to look at animals doing it doesn't come anywhere close, not even in the same ballpark, as having the ability to reason at anywhere the same level as humans. If one approaches it from a scientific level and truly understand the capacities of humans and animal some would realize they arent using their full capacity in this conversation.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992126
09/16/20 01:52 PM
09/16/20 01:52 PM
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mo.
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Yes sir I agree but the original question was can a animal reason. Know one has said anything about reasoning to a humans degree. I really do appreciate all the imput.thanks to all.

Conclusion:
[So maybe they can, maybe they can't.]

Last edited by nate; 09/16/20 01:53 PM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: amspoker] #6992130
09/16/20 01:58 PM
09/16/20 01:58 PM
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Posts: 8,985
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
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Trapper7 Offline
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Originally Posted by amspoker
My cat leaves me headless mice outside my door.

He must know I don't like to eat brains

Good one! laugh


Growing old should have taken longer.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992133
09/16/20 01:59 PM
09/16/20 01:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,835
Marion Kansas
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Yes sir Offline
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Marion Kansas
Originally Posted by nate
Yes sir I agree but the original question was can a animal reason. Know one has said anything about reasoning to a humans degree. I really do appreciate all the imput.thanks to all.

Conclusion:
[So maybe they can, maybe they can't.]

Valid point. My opinion as a whole they can't. But its truly hard to determine what is a higher level of intelligence combined with learned behavior and what might be a small shred of ability to reason. To fine a line to determine which side they are on.

Last edited by Yes sir; 09/16/20 02:00 PM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Trapper7] #6992134
09/16/20 02:01 PM
09/16/20 02:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,985
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
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Trapper7 Offline
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Originally Posted by Trapper7
Originally Posted by amspoker
My cat leaves me headless mice outside my door.

He must know I don't like to eat brains

Good one! laugh

My cat leaves headless chipmunks on my steps.
She must know I don't like brains either.
I think you're on to something there. My cat's a lot smarter than I gave her credit for. wink grin


Growing old should have taken longer.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992141
09/16/20 02:14 PM
09/16/20 02:14 PM
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Northern Michigan
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J.Morse Offline
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I have seen too many critters doing things that required, in my arm-chair biologist mind, actual reasoning ability. That being said, I believe any beast with a brain advanced enough to have a "memory" has the ability to reason. What is reason if it isn't a memory of things the animal has experienced and is acting on?


Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992153
09/16/20 02:38 PM
09/16/20 02:38 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Example, rubbing two sticks together they get hot. If I rub them together fast enough and long enough, they should make fire. Why? Because fire is hotter than the stickswhen I rubbed them a little bit.

Somebody did that the first time.



-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992155
09/16/20 02:43 PM
09/16/20 02:43 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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What memory was used to build the gasoline engine? lol



-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6992166
09/16/20 03:01 PM
09/16/20 03:01 PM
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Posts: 675
Illinois
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dkrug Offline
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The cold cold morning in 1893, when Rudolf Diesel couldn't get his car to start ?

No such thing as a dumb question.

Last edited by dkrug; 09/16/20 03:04 PM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992169
09/16/20 03:07 PM
09/16/20 03:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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HobbieTrapper  Offline
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
lol



-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: J.Morse] #6992233
09/16/20 04:48 PM
09/16/20 04:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,067
Northern Minnesota
BernieB. Offline
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Originally Posted by J.Morse
I have seen too many critters doing things that required, in my arm-chair biologist mind, actual reasoning ability. That being said, I believe any beast with a brain advanced enough to have a "memory" has the ability to reason. What is reason if it isn't a memory of things the animal has experienced and is acting on?



Reason and memory are two different things altogether. What is reason? In it's simplest for it is logic; basically the ability to figure out "If this, then that." No animal has ever been able to complete this basic logic, no matter how hard scientists try, they cannot find any behavior that cannot be explained by learned behavior. That includes communication, use of tools, etc. Humans can reason, animals cannot.

Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: BernieB.] #6992260
09/16/20 05:31 PM
09/16/20 05:31 PM
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Posts: 376
mo.
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nate Offline OP
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mo.
Originally Posted by BernieB.
Originally Posted by J.Morse
I have seen too many critters doing things that required, in my arm-chair biologist mind, actual reasoning ability. That being said, I believe any beast with a brain advanced enough to have a "memory" has the ability to reason. What is reason if it isn't a memory of things the animal has experienced and is acting on?



Reason and memory are two different things altogether. What is reason? In it's simplest for it is logic; basically the ability to figure out "If this, then that." No animal has ever been able to complete this basic logic, no matter how hard scientists try, they cannot find any behavior that cannot be explained by learned behavior. That includes communication, use of tools, etc. Humans can reason, animals cannot.

Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion.



Bernie are these the same scientists that believe the world was never under water and carbon dates a 30 year old snail to be 6 thousand years old?

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