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Reaoning power of animals #6990775
09/14/20 09:05 PM
09/14/20 09:05 PM
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mo.
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nate Offline OP
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mo.
My pup leaves the paper by the door every morning. Nothing else only the paper. Then one morning there layed the paper and a lb. Bag of coffee. At first I thought strange why did she do that. Later it dawned on me she new I drank coffee w/ the paper and she found this coffee that must have flew out of the back of a.pickup.she thought I would need it as well. My thought is that is reasoning. Whay about you all.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6990917
09/15/20 04:53 AM
09/15/20 04:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 18,256
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Ours brings in packages from the UPS guy. He probably heard us talking and ordering something on line and thought when that gets here I’ll bring that in or

He’s watched that brown truck pull up and leave stuff my daughter let him bring in since he was a pup.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6990921
09/15/20 05:12 AM
09/15/20 05:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,989
Southeast Ohio
amspoker Offline
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My cat leaves me headless mice outside my door.

He must know I don't like to eat brains


Levi
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6990923
09/15/20 05:16 AM
09/15/20 05:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 4,220
La Vernia & Dallas TX
Mark June Offline
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Mark June  Offline
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La Vernia & Dallas TX
reasoning; noun: the action of thinking about something in a logical, sensible way.

Logical: adjective: (relates to the object of a sentence); of or according to the rules of logic or formal argument.

Formal: adjective: done in accordance with rules of convention or etiquette; suitable for or constituting an official or important situation or occasion.

Constituting: verb: be (a part) of a whole.

Well, I researched reasoning to get a clear picture of whether animals are or are not able to do it.
Near as I can tell...
I guess if your animal can: place the verb (constituting) with the two adjectives (formal & logical) assigned to the noun (reasoning).
They can reason.
If not.
Nope.
They're something else.

Oh, and I just ran all this past Grace, my really, really really smart Brittany, and she kind of did that tilt her head to one side deal when I got finished, so I'm not sure what she's saying to me right now. I don't know Brittanese like some people seem to. I learned a bunch of Greek last year, but Grace's bloodline is from France and I can't understand that either.
smile

Blessings,
Mark


Dallas Theological Seminary
https://www.dts.edu
https://www.markjuneslures.com/
Predator Trapping Academy Host - 2021 is booked



Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6990935
09/15/20 05:34 AM
09/15/20 05:34 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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It’s reasonable to think a reasoning animal could reason enough to avoid a reasonable set within reason of a reasoning trapper trying to catch said reasoning critter. smile

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 09/15/20 05:34 AM.

-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6990939
09/15/20 05:42 AM
09/15/20 05:42 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 4,220
La Vernia & Dallas TX
Mark June Offline
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Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
It’s reasonable to think a reasoning animal could reason enough to avoid a reasonable set within reason of a reasoning trapper trying to catch said reasoning critter. smile


Especially if the trapper uses the wrong lure grin


Dallas Theological Seminary
https://www.dts.edu
https://www.markjuneslures.com/
Predator Trapping Academy Host - 2021 is booked



Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6990950
09/15/20 05:53 AM
09/15/20 05:53 AM
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Posts: 2,410
ohio
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ohio
Uncle’s dog was always wandering off. He put in underground dog fence. In no time at all, dog was once again off to the neighbors. Frustrated beyond belief, he stayed up one night to see what was up. The dog would go close enough to the the fence to make the collar beep...and lay down. Once the batteries ran down the beeping stopped and up went Fido on his merry way. Same dog would eat cigarette butts. Only ones that were still lit. He would paw the cherry out and then eat it and ignore any that were stubbed out.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6990989
09/15/20 06:50 AM
09/15/20 06:50 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Did your uncle ask him if that’s what he was doing Or did he just assume that’s what he was doing.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 09/15/20 06:51 AM.

-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6991004
09/15/20 07:20 AM
09/15/20 07:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,261
Aliceville, Kansas
Yukon John Offline
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Aliceville, Kansas
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Ours brings in packages from the UPS guy. He probably heard us talking and ordering something on line and thought when that gets here I’ll bring that in or

He’s watched that brown truck pull up and leave stuff my daughter let him bring in since he was a pup.


Lol! Maybe he ordered something, and wants you to open the package for him.


"I'm a man.. I'm 40!"-Mike Gundy
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991007
09/15/20 07:27 AM
09/15/20 07:27 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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lol


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6991021
09/15/20 07:51 AM
09/15/20 07:51 AM
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Mark did you say that animals can reason but we can't understand there reasoning? It's been a looooong time since I studied what ever it is you just said. My pup made more since to me than what you wrote. Not questioning your intelligence only mine. If you said that to me I would have probably cocked my head as well. Especially early in the mornin. My pup ancestry is AMERICA think that'sthe diffrence?

Last edited by nate; 09/15/20 08:02 AM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991024
09/15/20 07:57 AM
09/15/20 07:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2020
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Aliceville, Kansas
Yukon John Offline
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My opinion is that they can be very efficient on picking up habits, but they don't understand WHY this habit exists...that would be my definition of reasoning.


"I'm a man.. I'm 40!"-Mike Gundy
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991026
09/15/20 08:00 AM
09/15/20 08:00 AM
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One of our dogs is so "smart" she thinks I'm a different person everytime I smell different. Likes me one minute and hates me when I come back in the door the next. I really would like to know what goes on in her brain. Maybe she's just scizophrentic?


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: PAskinner] #6991028
09/15/20 08:08 AM
09/15/20 08:08 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Originally Posted by PAskinner
One of our dogs is so "smart" she thinks I'm a different person everytime I smell different. Likes me one minute and hates me when I come back in the door the next. I really would like to know what goes on in her brain. Maybe she's just scizophrentic?


Or maybe some days you just stink. lol


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6991049
09/15/20 08:29 AM
09/15/20 08:29 AM
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teepee2 Offline
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Question #1 Who on gods green earth rides around with a pound coffee in the back of their pick-up? Question #2 how fast does this one in a million person have to drive to have that pound of coffee "fly" out of the back of the truck? whistle

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991057
09/15/20 08:36 AM
09/15/20 08:36 AM
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Lots of campers come trough here maybe left it on there bumper fender ect.? When I said pound bag it was partial bag. If that helps.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: amspoker] #6991068
09/15/20 08:49 AM
09/15/20 08:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 39,602
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline
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Originally Posted by amspoker
My cat leaves me headless mice outside my door.

He must know I don't like to eat brains

Hahaha.... Yes!!!


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: PAskinner] #6991071
09/15/20 08:55 AM
09/15/20 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by PAskinner
One of our dogs is so "smart" she thinks I'm a different person everytime I smell different. Likes me one minute and hates me when I come back in the door the next. I really would like to know what goes on in her brain. Maybe she's just scizophrentic?

There are Those!


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991073
09/15/20 08:56 AM
09/15/20 08:56 AM
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Wi.
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Diggerman Offline
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Wi.
I dunno, someone taught finster to type.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Diggerman] #6991076
09/15/20 08:57 AM
09/15/20 08:57 AM
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Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Diggerman
I dunno, someone taught finster to type.

Haha!!! grin


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: PAskinner] #6991077
09/15/20 08:57 AM
09/15/20 08:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,108
West Central MN
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Originally Posted by PAskinner
One of our dogs is so "smart" she thinks I'm a different person everytime I smell different. Likes me one minute and hates me when I come back in the door the next. I really would like to know what goes on in her brain. Maybe she's just scizophrentic?

Sounds like an ex-girlfriend!

I think animals can reason, much like humans. Some better than others. Surroundings can also play a huge factor. My grandfathers collie would go out every evening w/o being told to get the cattle for milking. She knew when there was a problem and would come and get someone right off. She was also a great babysitter with us kids and always got between us and any equipment that my be operating in the yard. My grandfather was too busy on the farm to do much training with her but yet she knew what her job was and what had to be done. I see too many examples of animals reasoning not to believe they can't. Maybe not to our degree but they can still reason.


Common sense is a not a vegetable that does well in everyone's garden.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991081
09/15/20 08:58 AM
09/15/20 08:58 AM
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MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Going to guess lab or golden retriever or similar breed, once in awhile those breeds will just show up with something of yours and hand it to you, socks, underwear, hat, they are bred to retrieve stuff that is their owners and bring it back. If I had to guess it was a trait that they gained from wolves submitting to the Alpha and bringing him food etc to keep from getting mauled.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991095
09/15/20 09:14 AM
09/15/20 09:14 AM
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With threads like this next thing you know someones going to allude to the fact that animals and people are the same.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Rat Masterson] #6991097
09/15/20 09:18 AM
09/15/20 09:18 AM
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Posts: 18,256
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
With threads like this next thing you know someones going to allude to the fact that animals and people are the same.


Not until they drive a taxi in nyc for 6 months.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991130
09/15/20 09:45 AM
09/15/20 09:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,004
The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane Offline
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My exwife had a little mare I planned on never liking but she turned out to be super cowey and too smart for her own good so she eventually won me over. I had built a slam latch for the little place we kept her behind the house out of a horse shoe and I was proud of it- the only problem was that if you didn't slam it, it might fail to latch.

One morning I went out to feed at dawn and the gate was wide open- thankfully the little saddle mare was still in waiting for me by the bunk. I remember thinking- well the little numb skull never went anywhere but sign said otherwise. For laughs I drove around a little bit and noticed fresh grazing and piles spread out over several miles. She had visited every set of horses she could find during the night but decided no matter how much green grass she had taken in she wasn't gonna be late for a little flake of alfalfa or some rolled oats!

In my mind, it was a contentious decision she made and shows more reasoning than most.
grin


"Our nation is witnessing a merciless campaign to wipe out our history, defame our heroes, erase our values, and indoctrinate our children."
D. Trump
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991146
09/15/20 09:56 AM
09/15/20 09:56 AM
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teepee2 Offline
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Originally Posted by nate
Tp
Lots of campers come trough here maybe left it on there bumper fender ect.? When I said pound bag it was partial bag. If that helps.

I was just "reasoning". smile

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991156
09/15/20 10:03 AM
09/15/20 10:03 AM
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ny
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gcs Offline
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Had a border collie that figured out that if he rushed the cat at the right moment when a car was coming, the cat would bolt and get hit by the car... daughter went through a pile of cats...
I never would have believed the dog was the culprit, until I spotted him planning the deed, car missed the cat by inches but the dogs plan was sound.
If thats not reasoning, I don't know what is, but that dog was smarter then a lot of people., lol

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991159
09/15/20 10:05 AM
09/15/20 10:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,004
The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane Offline
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LMBO
Border collies are smarter than most of my friends- don't ever put anything past them LOL


"Our nation is witnessing a merciless campaign to wipe out our history, defame our heroes, erase our values, and indoctrinate our children."
D. Trump
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991160
09/15/20 10:06 AM
09/15/20 10:06 AM
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Missouri
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HayDay Offline
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Missouri
Some of the most intelligent animals I know of are starlings. They seem to have the ability to reason and to communicate thoughts.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991161
09/15/20 10:06 AM
09/15/20 10:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 18,256
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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It happened and he remembered, that isn’t the same as “That car is coming, if I chase that cat he might run and get killed by that car.”


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6991171
09/15/20 10:14 AM
09/15/20 10:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,004
The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane Offline
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The Hill Country of Texas
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
It happened and he remembered, that isn’t the same as “That car is coming, if I chase that cat he might run and get killed by that car.”


Did you miss the part about how his daughter went through a "pile" of cats? We might hang the jury you and I b/c I say that eventually at some point, it was premeditated!


"Our nation is witnessing a merciless campaign to wipe out our history, defame our heroes, erase our values, and indoctrinate our children."
D. Trump
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Rat Masterson] #6991182
09/15/20 10:21 AM
09/15/20 10:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 4,220
La Vernia & Dallas TX
Mark June Offline
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Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
With threads like this next thing you know someones going to allude to the fact that animals and people are the same.


Bingo Rat. The teaching that given enough time, all amoebas would turn into humans, has sunk its tentacles to our culture's core.

We're just a bunch of helter-skelter atoms that landed in unison in a wonderful arrangement, some luckier than others perhaps,
because the probability that the odds this occurred...
1 and then another number with 40 zeros after it (or so scientists tell us)
seems pretty believable to most Westerns.

That's too big a number for me, so I plan to ask the next coyote that "out-smarts" me.
Maybe he or she will leave me a note how it all works.
Animal spirits are powerful in Texas.
Ask Leftlane grin


Dallas Theological Seminary
https://www.dts.edu
https://www.markjuneslures.com/
Predator Trapping Academy Host - 2021 is booked



Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991203
09/15/20 10:52 AM
09/15/20 10:52 AM
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Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
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I don't know if it would be classified as reasoning or not but any of you guys who have hunted bear have probably seen how a bear will discover how you access a bait site and will often check that trail before committing to a bait. I've had them climb the tree my stand was in and tear the seat off. They're very intelligent animals.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991210
09/15/20 11:06 AM
09/15/20 11:06 AM
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james bay frontierOnt.
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Bears also eat plywood,gas cans and skidoo seats.
They must be thinking - if he cant get gas and has no comfortable seat he wont be able to run that snowmachine.

Last edited by Boco; 09/15/20 11:07 AM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Posco] #6991276
09/15/20 12:57 PM
09/15/20 12:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 18,256
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Originally Posted by Posco
I don't know if it would be classified as reasoning or not but any of you guys who have hunted bear have probably seen how a bear will discover how you access a bait site and will often check that trail before committing to a bait. I've had them climb the tree my stand was in and tear the seat off. They're very intelligent animals.



Or just bored.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991279
09/15/20 01:01 PM
09/15/20 01:01 PM
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Asheville, NC
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charles Offline
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For more on this topic, read The Decent of Man by Charles Darwin. He compares man development to animal development. Written in the mid 1800s but still interesting.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991312
09/15/20 01:45 PM
09/15/20 01:45 PM
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nightlife Offline
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Had a walker coon hound that the first time I put him on a chain after we moved to the new place immediately did the run around the stake but and ended up snubbed right up to the post, well he stopped barking, sat down and stared at that post for several minutes then got up and walked the other way around to unwind himself and he never did it again, if that’s not reasoning tell me what is it, and that’s just one thing

Can animals reason I would say yes, not on the order of humans but it’s there more so in some then in others, and in my opinion stronger in predators then herbivores





�Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks.�
― Robert A. Heinlein
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Rat Masterson] #6991314
09/15/20 01:48 PM
09/15/20 01:48 PM
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nate Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
With threads like this next thing you know someones going to allude to the fact that animals and people are the same.




Done deal there's groups all over that think that. But I'm guessing everyone on here has there mind made up.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991317
09/15/20 01:54 PM
09/15/20 01:54 PM
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nate Offline OP
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Nightlife
That's way cool. Exactly my thoughts as well. He was surly a coon teeing son of a gun.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nightlife] #6991322
09/15/20 01:59 PM
09/15/20 01:59 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by nightlife
Had a walker coon hound that the first time I put him on a chain after we moved to the new place immediately did the run around the stake but and ended up snubbed right up to the post, well he stopped barking, sat down and stared at that post for several minutes then got up and walked the other way around to unwind himself and he never did it again, if that’s not reasoning tell me what is it, and that’s just one thing

Can animals reason I would say yes, not on the order of humans but it’s there more so in some then in others, and in my opinion stronger in predators then herbivores


Nice try. If he was wound up tight there wasn’t anywhere else to go.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 09/15/20 01:59 PM.

-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991323
09/15/20 02:01 PM
09/15/20 02:01 PM
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Aliceville, Kansas
Yukon John Offline
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I think some are confusing reasoning, with intelligence...or maybe I am. Lol


"I'm a man.. I'm 40!"-Mike Gundy
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991333
09/15/20 02:22 PM
09/15/20 02:22 PM
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Idaho Falls, Idaho
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Furvor Offline
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Idaho Falls, Idaho
While sitting in a waiting room one time I read an article in National Geography Magazine article about bird intelligence. Examples cited included birds dropping things on rocks and a bird (crow I think) that learned which things to bring to a woman to please her. The article said think twice before you say "bird brain."


Retired Cost Accountant. Also retired from trapping.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991429
09/15/20 04:44 PM
09/15/20 04:44 PM
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ny
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ny
Ravens are the border collies of the bird world, lol

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6991430
09/15/20 04:45 PM
09/15/20 04:45 PM
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Mn
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nightlife Offline
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Mn
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by nightlife
Had a walker coon hound that the first time I put him on a chain after we moved to the new place immediately did the run around the stake but and ended up snubbed right up to the post, well he stopped barking, sat down and stared at that post for several minutes then got up and walked the other way around to unwind himself and he never did it again, if that’s not reasoning tell me what is it, and that’s just one thing

Can animals reason I would say yes, not on the order of humans but it’s there more so in some then in others, and in my opinion stronger in predators then herbivores


Nice try. If he was wound up tight there wasn’t anywhere else to go.


You have obviously never had a dog on a chain attached to a pole or tree if you think that because every other one I have ever seen will just sit there and bark till someone comes and releases them or just give up and lay there





�Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks.�
― Robert A. Heinlein
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nightlife] #6991440
09/15/20 05:06 PM
09/15/20 05:06 PM
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Posts: 18,256
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by nightlife
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper


Nice try. If he was wound up tight there wasn’t anywhere else to go.


You have obviously never had a dog on a chain attached to a pole or tree if you think that because every other one I have ever seen will just sit there and bark till someone comes and releases them or just give up and lay there


That’s why I would never buy a dog from MN. lol


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991450
09/15/20 05:25 PM
09/15/20 05:25 PM
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100 Mile House, BC Can
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Based on this experience and a few others I believe some animals have reasoning ability.

On the side of an old road wolverine were known to travel I build a four foot long log culvert cubby with a plywood top cover, placed a beaver carcass in the center and a 330 trap at either end. On a subsequent check I found that a couple of wolverine, travelling together, had approached the set and one got caught. As indicated by tracks in the snow the second animal backed off and went to the other end of the set where it approached the trap. It appeared that it had started to enter the trap but the trigger was frozen into the snow and did not fire. As the trigger wires were not bent inward even slightly this indicated to me the animal sensed danger. The wolverine then backed off and went to the side of the cubby and dug through one foot of frozen ground to get the bait. From this I tend to believe that, although they are very brash and bold, they and others, especially predators have some ability to detect danger.


The only constant in trapping is change so keep learning.






Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991453
09/15/20 05:29 PM
09/15/20 05:29 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
We all have that, is it really reasoning?


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: bctomcat] #6991456
09/15/20 05:34 PM
09/15/20 05:34 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Originally Posted by bctomcat
Based on this experience and a few others I believe some animals have reasoning ability.

On the side of an old road wolverine were known to travel I build a four foot long log culvert cubby with a plywood top cover, placed a beaver carcass in the center and a 330 trap at either end. On a subsequent check I found that a couple of wolverine, travelling together, had approached the set and one got caught. As indicated by tracks in the snow the second animal backed off and went to the other end of the set where it approached the trap. It appeared that it had started to enter the trap but the trigger was frozen into the snow and did not fire. As the trigger wires were not bent inward even slightly this indicated to me the animal sensed danger. The wolverine then backed off and went to the side of the cubby and dug through one foot of frozen ground to get the bait. From this I tend to believe that, although they are very brash and bold, they and others, especially predators have some ability to detect danger.


The reasoning would be, “Is that a beaver in there? No way it should be in there, no sign of them anywhere else, somebody must have put it in here to trap me.”

You know, understanding that there is no free lunch.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 09/15/20 05:35 PM.

-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991469
09/15/20 06:00 PM
09/15/20 06:00 PM
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mo.
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nate Offline OP
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mo.
Dictionary

Screenshot_20200915-175640.png
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: charles] #6991473
09/15/20 06:03 PM
09/15/20 06:03 PM
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La Vernia & Dallas TX
Mark June Offline
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La Vernia & Dallas TX
Originally Posted by charles
For more on this topic, read The Decent of Man by Charles Darwin. He compares man development to animal development. Written in the mid 1800s but still interesting.


No need to read it Charles, we believe what we watch all around us as truth. John Locke was way ahead of Charles.

You do realize there was another (some say friend - some say colleague - some say both) man deeply interested in Darwin's work. Karl Marx. The man who had 9 people at his funeral and today has a world wide movement in his honor. He and Darwin's religion.

From Marx's memoires;

"Marx agreed to take into great consideration Darwin’s thesis about the evolution of living beings. In a letter from December 19, 1860 addressed to his friend and colleague Friedrich Engels, Marx states that Darwin’s book contains “the basis in natural history for our view.” In a different letter to activist Ferdinand Lassalle (January 16, 1861), Marx concludes that “Darwin’s book is very important and serves me as a basis in natural science for the class struggle in history.” As such, Marx agreed with Darwin that society, like the living beings on Earth, is the result of historical processes of change."

(I've read Darwin a number of times, and wrote a thesis on a comparable subject back in the 1980's). I enjoy and appreciate the sciences, but I don't affirm what either of these men planted deep in our world. In fact, I strongly disagree.

Blessings,
Mark


Dallas Theological Seminary
https://www.dts.edu
https://www.markjuneslures.com/
Predator Trapping Academy Host - 2021 is booked



Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Mark June] #6991484
09/15/20 06:19 PM
09/15/20 06:19 PM
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South West Pennsylvania
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Wingshot Offline
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South West Pennsylvania
I had an English Setter who had “his” spot on the couch. He didn’t like it if someone was sitting in his spot. My wife was there one evening and he was obviously mad about that so he ran through the living room, dining room and into the hall where the front door is and carried on like he wanted out. The wife gets up and goes through the opening directly to the hall to accommodate him. He doubles back and beats her to the “spot” on the couch. He could pick up a glass of milk and sneak off with it without spilling a drop too. I don’t know about reasoning, but he was smarter than a lot of people.




Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991487
09/15/20 06:23 PM
09/15/20 06:23 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Originally Posted by nate
Dictionary



The logical thing to do would have been simply move the trap instead of digging into a foot of frozen ground, but keep trying.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6991617
09/15/20 08:35 PM
09/15/20 08:35 PM
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mo.
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nate Offline OP
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Logic isn't simple. logic would be get rid of fake news. But all kidding aside when I was a youngster i had several traps set aside. Still do on occasion.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6991618
09/15/20 08:38 PM
09/15/20 08:38 PM
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Perry, NY
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Dana I Offline
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Perry, NY
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper

Originally Posted by nate
Dictionary



The logical thing to do would have been simply move the trap instead of digging into a foot of frozen ground, but keep trying.


Or logic would say... I don't know what this is but it doesn't seem right so I will avoid it. The "logic" you are using requires the intelligence of knowing what a trap is and how it works.

Leftlane I agree on the horses, anyone who thinks animals don't have the ability to reason has never spent much time in the saddle.

In my opinion all animals have the ability to reason its just a matter of how developed that ability is. Heck not even all people have the same ability. Some here seem to think that just because they are not able to reason on the same level as people that they can't do it at all.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Boco] #6991629
09/15/20 09:04 PM
09/15/20 09:04 PM
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virginia,MN
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beavert Offline
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virginia,MN
Originally Posted by Boco
Bears also eat plywood,gas cans and skidoo seats.
They must be thinking - if he cant get gas and has no comfortable seat he wont be able to run that snowmachine.

Lol!

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991639
09/15/20 09:10 PM
09/15/20 09:10 PM
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West Virginia
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Choo Offline
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West Virginia
There are lots of examples of animals using tools to gather food ex. primates, birds, dolphins. While some may say that is a learned behavior it would have taken the original animal that discovered that method some degree of thought and reasoning in order to replicate it. I think many of you are giving animals to little a credit in what they are capable of doing and feeling. Many humans act no better then animals in my opinion. While I do believe animals some animals are capable of thought and reasoning I still believe that we were put here with domain over them. That responsibility is not something that I take lightly, the animals I raise, and or harvest I do so with respect and thanks.

Last edited by Choo; 09/15/20 09:11 PM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Boco] #6991708
09/15/20 11:26 PM
09/15/20 11:26 PM
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Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
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Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted by Boco
Bears also eat plywood,gas cans and skidoo seats.
They must be thinking - if he cant get gas and has no comfortable seat he wont be able to run that snowmachine.

They're innately inquisitive animals.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Dana I] #6991743
09/16/20 04:17 AM
09/16/20 04:17 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Originally Posted by Dana I


Or logic would say... I don't know what this is but it doesn't seem right so I will avoid it. The "logic" you are using requires the intelligence of knowing what a trap is and how it works.

Leftlane I agree on the horses, anyone who thinks animals don't have the ability to reason has never spent much time in the saddle.

In my opinion all animals have the ability to reason its just a matter of how developed that ability is. Heck not even all people have the same ability. Some here seem to think that just because they are not able to reason on the same level as people that they can't do it at all.


A wolverine walking out on a weak limb senses danger and decides to stop and go back, is that instinct or reason?


We used to board horses for a guy down the road from us. I’ve never been to a show or seen them work cattle but from what I can tell they have instincts and whatever that gentlemen taught them what to do. They never opened a gate or fed and watered themselves and they watched me do it twice a day.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 09/16/20 04:18 AM.

-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991761
09/16/20 04:59 AM
09/16/20 04:59 AM
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Perry, NY
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Dana I Offline
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You have not worked with many horses if you haven't come across one that figured out how to open a gate. I have seen a several that had to have latches that were PHYSICALLY impossible for them to operate as the horse would figure out a way to open it otherwise.

Your wolverine example is most likely instinct. Reason would come next time he comes through and decides to take a different route because he now knows that that one is dangerous. Without some small amount of reasoning ability they would keep making the same mistakes over and over. He depended on instinct to get himself out of the current situation, he learned it was dangerous and would use reasoning to avoid the situation in the future.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Dana I] #6991766
09/16/20 05:09 AM
09/16/20 05:09 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Originally Posted by Dana I
You have not worked with many horses if you haven't come across one that figured out how to open a gate. I have seen a several that had to have latches that were PHYSICALLY impossible for them to operate as the horse would figure out a way to open it otherwise.

Your wolverine example is most likely instinct. Reason would come next time he comes through and decides to take a different route because he now knows that that one is dangerous. Without some small amount of reasoning ability they would keep making the same mistakes over and over. He depended on instinct to get himself out of the current situation, he learned it was dangerous and would use reasoning to avoid the situation in the future.


We’ll just have to agree to disagree. Remembering isn’t reasoning, it’s the reason animals can be trained but it isn’t the same as reasoning thought.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Leftlane] #6991785
09/16/20 05:42 AM
09/16/20 05:42 AM
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Indiana
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Providence Farm Offline
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Indiana
Originally Posted by Leftlane
My exwife had a little mare I planned on never liking but she turned out to be super cowey and too smart for her own good so she eventually won me over. I had built a slam latch for the little place we kept her behind the house out of a horse shoe and I was proud of it- the only problem was that if you didn't slam it, it might fail to latch.

One morning I went out to feed at dawn and the gate was wide open- thankfully the little saddle mare was still in waiting for me by the bunk. I remember thinking- well the little numb skull never went anywhere but sign said otherwise. For laughs I drove around a little bit and noticed fresh grazing and piles spread out over several miles. She had visited every set of horses she could find during the night but decided no matter how much green grass she had taken in she wasn't gonna be late for a little flake of alfalfa or some rolled oats!

In my mind, it was a contentious decision she made and shows more reasoning than most.
grin



My dad text me last week telling me "your white goat is out" I was headed up in ten minutes to milk anyway and told him I will be up shortly dont worry about it she won't go far. I went to the barn and got concerned when I didn't find her just outside the barn when I walked around. Just before I was getting ready to expand my search I looked in the stall. Sure enough there she was in the stall with the gate closed standing on it looking at me. It seemed like she was trying to pull a fast one saying yep I have been here the whole time. The stall latch was un lached and there were goat droppings all in the driveway that along with dads text gave her away. I never let on I knew she had been out and to this day she dosen't know that I know.

Last edited by Providence Farm; 09/16/20 09:12 AM. Reason: White goat not wife goat.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991860
09/16/20 06:58 AM
09/16/20 06:58 AM
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The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane Offline
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LMBO- yeah she figures to have the wool pulled over your eyes.


"Our nation is witnessing a merciless campaign to wipe out our history, defame our heroes, erase our values, and indoctrinate our children."
D. Trump
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991861
09/16/20 06:58 AM
09/16/20 06:58 AM
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Perry, NY
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Dana I Offline
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Perry, NY
Hobbie, I really don't think we are that far apart. No remembering is not reasoning, that is correct. But I think that using what you remember to avoid the situation in the future is. That is apparently where we disagree.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991879
09/16/20 07:13 AM
09/16/20 07:13 AM
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La Vernia & Dallas TX
Mark June Offline
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Mark June  Offline
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Primates, scientists tell us, are the only animals with a frontal lobe to our brains. I simply did a Google to remind me what scientists figure that region does;

The frontal lobes are important for voluntary movement, expressive language and for managing higher level executive functions. Executive functions refer to a collection of cognitive skills including the capacity to plan, organise, initiate, self-monitor and control one's responses in order to achieve a goal.

I wonder how we got from a fish walking outta the soup onto legs to where we have what no other animals have?
The philosophers of centuries ago coined the atheistic phrase, "Having a watch, does not indicate there is a watch maker."
Well, dang son. Somebody had to make the watch correct?

I feel better already, but interestingly, my dog gave me all this information. whistle

Blessings,
Mark


Dallas Theological Seminary
https://www.dts.edu
https://www.markjuneslures.com/
Predator Trapping Academy Host - 2021 is booked



Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Dana I] #6991885
09/16/20 07:21 AM
09/16/20 07:21 AM
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Northern Minnesota
BernieB. Offline
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BernieB.  Offline
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Northern Minnesota
Originally Posted by Dana I
Hobbie, I really don't think we are that far apart. No remembering is not reasoning, that is correct. But I think that using what you remember to avoid the situation in the future is. That is apparently where we disagree.


That's not reasoning that's cognition.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: BernieB.] #6991889
09/16/20 07:30 AM
09/16/20 07:30 AM
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rogers city mi.
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jeff karsten Offline
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rogers city mi.
Originally Posted by BernieB.
Originally Posted by Dana I
Hobbie, I really don't think we are that far apart. No remembering is not reasoning, that is correct. But I think that using what you remember to avoid the situation in the future is. That is apparently where we disagree.


That's not reasoning that's cognition.

Used to call that "Growing Up"


olden tyred
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991894
09/16/20 07:33 AM
09/16/20 07:33 AM
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Pennsylvania
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coalbank Offline
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Pennsylvania
If my dog can't reason, he has me fooled. As a matter of fact he fools me often.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: coalbank] #6991907
09/16/20 07:47 AM
09/16/20 07:47 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Originally Posted by coalbank
If my dog can't reason, he has me fooled. As a matter of fact he fools me often.


You certain you aren’t fooling yourself?


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Mark June] #6991916
09/16/20 07:55 AM
09/16/20 07:55 AM
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Southern Illinois
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Foxpaw Offline
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Southern Illinois
Originally Posted by Mark June
Primates, scientists tell us, are the only animals with a frontal lobe to our brains. I simply did a Google to remind me what scientists figure that region does;

The frontal lobes are important for voluntary movement, expressive language and for managing higher level executive functions. Executive functions refer to a collection of cognitive skills including the capacity to plan, organise, initiate, self-monitor and control one's responses in order to achieve a goal.

I wonder how we got from a fish walking outta the soup onto legs to where we have what no other animals have?
The philosophers of centuries ago coined the atheistic phrase, "Having a watch, does not indicate there is a watch maker."
Well, dang son. Somebody had to make the watch correct?

I feel better already, but interestingly, my dog gave me all this information. whistle

Blessings,
Mark


A guy was curious where everyone got the time to set there watch. So he called the radio station and asked where they got there time from. They told him the watch maker . So he called the watch maker and asked where he got his time. He said the radio station.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991917
09/16/20 07:56 AM
09/16/20 07:56 AM
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mo.
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nate Offline OP
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mo.
Big fancy talk is learned behavior.

Conclusion to a problem is reasoning.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991918
09/16/20 07:57 AM
09/16/20 07:57 AM
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Perry, NY
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Dana I Offline
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Definition of cognition- the mental action or process of aquiring knowledge and understanding through thaught, experience or senses.

Definition of reasoning- action of thinking about something in a logical sensible way. Or to find an answer to a problem by considering various possible solutions.

Therefore I believe aquiring the knowledge is the cognitive part. Deciding what to do with the knowledge is reasoning.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991922
09/16/20 08:03 AM
09/16/20 08:03 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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There appears to be as many types of reasoning as there are stray cats in an Asian restaurant dumpster.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991925
09/16/20 08:07 AM
09/16/20 08:07 AM
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SE Minn
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Rat Masterson Offline
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SE Minn
Giving animals any human abilities is thinking like PETA. All animals are nothing more than a natural resource and should be treated as such.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Rat Masterson] #6991941
09/16/20 08:39 AM
09/16/20 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
Giving animals any human abilities is thinking like PETA. All animals are nothing more than a natural resource and should be treated as such.


Everybody wants their pets to be special. I think most will agree, the special is a projection.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Rat Masterson] #6991947
09/16/20 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
Giving animals any human abilities is thinking like PETA. All animals are nothing more than a natural resource and should be treated as such.



Peta agenda is to take our rights they care less about animals.
My pup is not a natural resource she is used to catch out natural resources we use for food and clothing.
It's us trappers that love and protect our wildlife.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991950
09/16/20 08:55 AM
09/16/20 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by nate
Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
Giving animals any human abilities is thinking like PETA. All animals are nothing more than a natural resource and should be treated as such.



Peta agenda is to take our rights they care less about animals.
My pup is not a natural resource she is used to catch out natural resources we use for food and clothing.
It's us trappers that love and protect our wildlife.



The Defense rest your Honor.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991963
09/16/20 09:10 AM
09/16/20 09:10 AM
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The Hill Country of Texas
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And when they train themselves? Our definition of reasoning could vary a little bit I guess?


"Our nation is witnessing a merciless campaign to wipe out our history, defame our heroes, erase our values, and indoctrinate our children."
D. Trump
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991969
09/16/20 09:14 AM
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Grandad had a mut that had a vocabulary of two or three hundred words. Understood not spoken, just for those with ancestors in Rio Linda.
He brought Grandad all kinds of things when asked to. Pipe, several different ones and styles, shoes, tobacco pouch, car keys, kids! Yep Grandad could name a child and Nick would find the kid and return with him or her, we had about forty acres to play in. It took Nick about twice being told to “Get the paper “ before he started watching for the paperboy. Grandmother would go out after dawn and unlatch the henhouse and after the chickens were out Nick would get his basket out of the pantry and go collect the eggs and bring them to the kitchen and put the basket on the table. This started after Grandmother let him carry the basket back to the house a couple of times.
Was Nick unique in the dog world? Not in my opinion, rare, yes. If you search famous dogs, there are a bunch of them that have done many amazing things that scientists are unable to explain. Somethings a child of eight or ten
probably couldn’t do. Things like traveling overland over two thousand miles to reunite with their families. Or picking the Kentucky Derby winner seven years in a row.
The “Faithful “ would protest “that is learned behavior “ or “that is cognitive behavior “. Me thinks they doth protest to much.
Mr. June I think your labeling Mr. Darwin’s studies a “ religion “ is beneath your intelligence and dignity. As always
JMO


Go as far as you can see, and you will see farther
Zig Ziglar
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991984
09/16/20 09:24 AM
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And don’t even get me started on the two way conversations recorded between the gorilla and humans, or the bonobo chimp and humans. Conversation that is easily understood by Anyone fluent in American Sign Language.


Go as far as you can see, and you will see farther
Zig Ziglar
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: cmcf] #6991986
09/16/20 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by cmcf
And don’t even get me started on the two way conversations recorded between the gorilla and humans, or the bonobo chimp and humans. Conversation that is easily understood by Anyone fluent in American Sign Language.


Once again, that's learned behavior. Cognition, not reasoning. You can teach a mina bird to ask for a cracker. You' can't teach a mina bird or any gorilla to solve a logic problem.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Leftlane] #6991991
09/16/20 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Leftlane
And when they train themselves? Our definition of reasoning could vary a little bit I guess?


Dog paws at a lever, food falls out. One day, food doesn’t fall out. It stops pawing at the lever. Does it know it’s empty or does it see a plastic bag has blocked the hole and resolve the problem or does it just stop because there is nothing coming out when it paws the lever?

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 09/16/20 09:53 AM.

-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6991994
09/16/20 09:35 AM
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Learning to sign is as you say learned behavior. However participation in a conversation cannot be learned behavior as the thread of the conversation has an infinite number of pathways it can take.


Go as far as you can see, and you will see farther
Zig Ziglar
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: cmcf] #6992004
09/16/20 09:47 AM
09/16/20 09:47 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Originally Posted by cmcf
Learning to sign is as you say learned behavior. However participation in a conversation cannot be learned behavior as the thread of the conversation has an infinite number of pathways it can take.


Not true, conversations can be led. Lawyers practice it all the time when they can get away with it.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992005
09/16/20 09:49 AM
09/16/20 09:49 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Man, this is fun! What else you got?


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992031
09/16/20 10:43 AM
09/16/20 10:43 AM
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Aliceville, Kansas
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Lol


"I'm a man.. I'm 40!"-Mike Gundy
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992054
09/16/20 11:07 AM
09/16/20 11:07 AM
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Animals ......other than humans....are not self-aware. They have no idea that they will someday die. We have that innate knowledge. I think animals can learn, and certainly are driven by instinct, but I do not believe they have the capacity to reason.

Birds may be in a different category...slightly.

Look at the video below. Theses animals don't even recognize themselves, and don't have the ability to reason out the situation they are in.



Mean As Nails
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992103
09/16/20 12:14 PM
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Maybe maybe not.

Screenshot_20200916-120208.png
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992109
09/16/20 12:25 PM
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Wow! I’m flattered.

However, the thread title “when YOU get it wrong” says it all.

Last edited by HobbieTrapper; 09/16/20 12:34 PM.

-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992110
09/16/20 12:26 PM
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No matter what unique circumstances you want to look at animals doing it doesn't come anywhere close, not even in the same ballpark, as having the ability to reason at anywhere the same level as humans. If one approaches it from a scientific level and truly understand the capacities of humans and animal some would realize they arent using their full capacity in this conversation.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992126
09/16/20 12:52 PM
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Yes sir I agree but the original question was can a animal reason. Know one has said anything about reasoning to a humans degree. I really do appreciate all the imput.thanks to all.

Conclusion:
[So maybe they can, maybe they can't.]

Last edited by nate; 09/16/20 12:53 PM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: amspoker] #6992130
09/16/20 12:58 PM
09/16/20 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by amspoker
My cat leaves me headless mice outside my door.

He must know I don't like to eat brains

Good one! laugh


Ever wonder why there are no democrats on Mount Rushmore?
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992133
09/16/20 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by nate
Yes sir I agree but the original question was can a animal reason. Know one has said anything about reasoning to a humans degree. I really do appreciate all the imput.thanks to all.

Conclusion:
[So maybe they can, maybe they can't.]

Valid point. My opinion as a whole they can't. But its truly hard to determine what is a higher level of intelligence combined with learned behavior and what might be a small shred of ability to reason. To fine a line to determine which side they are on.

Last edited by Yes sir; 09/16/20 01:00 PM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: Trapper7] #6992134
09/16/20 01:01 PM
09/16/20 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Trapper7
Originally Posted by amspoker
My cat leaves me headless mice outside my door.

He must know I don't like to eat brains

Good one! laugh

My cat leaves headless chipmunks on my steps.
She must know I don't like brains either.
I think you're on to something there. My cat's a lot smarter than I gave her credit for. wink grin


Ever wonder why there are no democrats on Mount Rushmore?
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992141
09/16/20 01:14 PM
09/16/20 01:14 PM
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I have seen too many critters doing things that required, in my arm-chair biologist mind, actual reasoning ability. That being said, I believe any beast with a brain advanced enough to have a "memory" has the ability to reason. What is reason if it isn't a memory of things the animal has experienced and is acting on?


Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992153
09/16/20 01:38 PM
09/16/20 01:38 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Example, rubbing two sticks together they get hot. If I rub them together fast enough and long enough, they should make fire. Why? Because fire is hotter than the stickswhen I rubbed them a little bit.

Somebody did that the first time.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992155
09/16/20 01:43 PM
09/16/20 01:43 PM
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What memory was used to build the gasoline engine? lol


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6992166
09/16/20 02:01 PM
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The cold cold morning in 1893, when Rudolf Diesel couldn't get his car to start ?

No such thing as a dumb question.

Last edited by dkrug; 09/16/20 02:04 PM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992169
09/16/20 02:07 PM
09/16/20 02:07 PM
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lol


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: J.Morse] #6992233
09/16/20 03:48 PM
09/16/20 03:48 PM
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Northern Minnesota
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Originally Posted by J.Morse
I have seen too many critters doing things that required, in my arm-chair biologist mind, actual reasoning ability. That being said, I believe any beast with a brain advanced enough to have a "memory" has the ability to reason. What is reason if it isn't a memory of things the animal has experienced and is acting on?



Reason and memory are two different things altogether. What is reason? In it's simplest for it is logic; basically the ability to figure out "If this, then that." No animal has ever been able to complete this basic logic, no matter how hard scientists try, they cannot find any behavior that cannot be explained by learned behavior. That includes communication, use of tools, etc. Humans can reason, animals cannot.

Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: BernieB.] #6992260
09/16/20 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BernieB.
Originally Posted by J.Morse
I have seen too many critters doing things that required, in my arm-chair biologist mind, actual reasoning ability. That being said, I believe any beast with a brain advanced enough to have a "memory" has the ability to reason. What is reason if it isn't a memory of things the animal has experienced and is acting on?



Reason and memory are two different things altogether. What is reason? In it's simplest for it is logic; basically the ability to figure out "If this, then that." No animal has ever been able to complete this basic logic, no matter how hard scientists try, they cannot find any behavior that cannot be explained by learned behavior. That includes communication, use of tools, etc. Humans can reason, animals cannot.

Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion.



Bernie are these the same scientists that believe the world was never under water and carbon dates a 30 year old snail to be 6 thousand years old?

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: BernieB.] #6992283
09/16/20 05:02 PM
09/16/20 05:02 PM
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....
Originally Posted by BernieB.
Originally Posted by J.Morse
I have seen too many critters doing things that required, in my arm-chair biologist mind, actual reasoning ability. That being said, I believe any beast with a brain advanced enough to have a "memory" has the ability to reason. What is reason if it isn't a memory of things the animal has experienced and is acting on?



Reason and memory are two different things altogether. What is reason? In it's simplest for it is logic; basically the ability to figure out "If this, then that." No animal has ever been able to complete this basic logic, no matter how hard scientists try, they cannot find any behavior that cannot be explained by learned behavior. That includes communication, use of tools, etc. Humans can reason, animals cannot.

Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion.


C'mon Bernie, aren't you one of those guys that says big boar bear kill cubs so they can breed with the sow? I've heard that said by all manner of people. I think we are defining "reason" two different ways. I believe animals can reason, but I don't believe they have the ability to take it up a notch or two and, for and example, think " if I eat that cub, I can expect it's mother to come into estrous a year earlier than if I don't eat it". Isn't it reasoning when a bear shifts it's late summer range to take advantage of a good acorn crop, or other food source? How about the folks in Montana/Wyoming that say Grizzly Bear are habituated to rifle shots meaning food. Are they not reasoning that there may be grub over there where that shot just rang out? Is it not reason, or just memory? I say they can be one and the same. As for your statement about emotion.......I believe they have that too. Watch a dog you've known for years, you can tell when they are happy or maybe pouting.


Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992327
09/16/20 05:52 PM
09/16/20 05:52 PM
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Champaign County, Ohio.
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Keith

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: BernieB.] #6992382
09/16/20 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BernieB.


Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion.


You can't be serious? You have never saw a happy animal? An animal that was scared?


Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992422
09/16/20 07:50 PM
09/16/20 07:50 PM
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How about the animals graveside greaving for the loss of their master for so many years that monuments are erected to honor the animal. Many instances.


Go as far as you can see, and you will see farther
Zig Ziglar
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992534
09/16/20 09:21 PM
09/16/20 09:21 PM
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Reason and memory are two different things altogether. What is reason? In it's simplest for it is logic; basically the ability to figure out "If this, then that." No animal has ever been able to complete this basic logic, no matter how hard scientists try, they cannot find any behavior that cannot be explained by learned behavior. That includes communication, use of tools, etc. Humans can reason, animals cannot.

Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion. [/quote]

C'mon Bernie, aren't you one of those guys that says big boar bear kill cubs so they can breed with the sow? I've heard that said by all manner of people. I think we are defining "reason" two different ways. I believe animals can reason, but I don't believe they have the ability to take it up a notch or two and, for and example, think " if I eat that cub, I can expect it's mother to come into estrous a year earlier than if I don't eat it". Isn't it reasoning when a bear shifts it's late summer range to take advantage of a good acorn crop, or other food source? How about the folks in Montana/Wyoming that say Grizzly Bear are habituated to rifle shots meaning food. Are they not reasoning that there may be grub over there where that shot just rang out? Is it not reason, or just memory? I say they can be one and the same. As for your statement about emotion.......I believe they have that too. Watch a dog you've known for years, you can tell when they are happy or maybe pouting.

[/quote]

Your describing pavlov's dog(pavlovian conditioning),not reasoning in the least.

Last edited by Boco; 09/16/20 09:23 PM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992556
09/16/20 10:03 PM
09/16/20 10:03 PM
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West Central MN
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Only humans have emotions? I have a hard time believing that. Everyone shows emotions differently so how can you say animals don't show emotions? Tell me your dog doesn't show happines when you give them a treat? Tell me they don't show remorse when they're done something wrong?

Last edited by 20scout; 09/16/20 10:04 PM.

Common sense is a not a vegetable that does well in everyone's garden.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992626
09/17/20 04:50 AM
09/17/20 04:50 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Is fear an emotion?


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992720
09/17/20 07:05 AM
09/17/20 07:05 AM
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Houghton Lake, MI
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I set trap, catch critter, dispatch said critter, skin critter, dispose of remains, sleep well at night, REPEAT. Maybe it is I, the wrapper that shows no emotions. Critters may remember things like where food is o what others smell like but it is all instinct driven. My 2 pennies.


Wish I had more time to trap....
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6992749
09/17/20 08:10 AM
09/17/20 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
There appears to be as many types of reasoning as there are stray cats in an Asian restaurant dumpster.



I heard a goodin a few months back by a German pyscologist when asked about the American educational knowledge;

He said, "They are a mile wide and an inch deep on all subjects."
What? He are not a mile wide!

Ouch.

shocked


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Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992751
09/17/20 08:12 AM
09/17/20 08:12 AM
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McGrath, AK
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Instinct or reasoning ??





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Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992774
09/17/20 08:42 AM
09/17/20 08:42 AM
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A lot of good stories here, but I don't know if they are proof that animals can reason. I had a german shorthair when I was young, great dog can't remember a bird I knocked down that he didn't find. One time he went on point, I walked in and a quail got up I dropped it. Then another got up dropped it too. All in all 8 quail got up one by one and I had my limit. But they kept getting up one at a time. I went up to the dog, and I'll be darned. He had ran the whole covey down a ground hog hole and was leaving them up one at a time. But he couldn't reason that the limit was eight.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992790
09/17/20 09:03 AM
09/17/20 09:03 AM
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coalbank Offline
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Science says dogs have emotions. Breeders will say the same. Fear, joy and anger are the ones I see in my dog.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6993679
09/18/20 10:48 AM
09/18/20 10:48 AM
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coalbank Offline
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Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by coalbank
If my dog can't reason, he has me fooled. As a matter of fact he fools me often.


You certain you aren’t fooling yourself?

Not exactly. Perhaps my understanding of Reasoning is flawed.

This morning my dog ran with the 4wheeler for quite awhile and was tiring some. He runs off the trail and down the hollow or whichever way his freedom takes him. A few times I noticed when he was downhill from me and saw my direction of travel was his way he sat and waited for me to get there. Is it reason that leads him to believe that he can wait there. He has never been on this trail before. Rudimentary reasoning? Not claiming he is Socrates but he suprises me all the time with his wit.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993693
09/18/20 11:25 AM
09/18/20 11:25 AM
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There are many shows that shows monkeys using rocks to break nuts open to eat what's inside and crows using sticks to reach inside places to get bugs.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993698
09/18/20 11:38 AM
09/18/20 11:38 AM
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Mark June Offline
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I find it fascinating that we try to figure out the animal kingdom.
I wonder if animals do the same about humankind?

smile


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Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: coalbank] #6993707
09/18/20 11:57 AM
09/18/20 11:57 AM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Originally Posted by coalbank

Not exactly. Perhaps my understanding of Reasoning is flawed.

This morning my dog ran with the 4wheeler for quite awhile and was tiring some. He runs off the trail and down the hollow or whichever way his freedom takes him. A few times I noticed when he was downhill from me and saw my direction of travel was his way he sat and waited for me to get there. Is it reason that leads him to believe that he can wait there. He has never been on this trail before. Rudimentary reasoning? Not claiming he is Socrates but he suprises me all the time with his wit.


I would say pack hunting instinct.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6993737
09/18/20 01:04 PM
09/18/20 01:04 PM
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coalbank Offline
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Ok another example. A good friends dog is gun shy. We were preparing traps one day when the sound of the snaps were too much for him and he dissapeared. Our search found him waiting by the gate to my place quite a ways away. Did reason tell him he wouldn't miss the ride home there? The second time it could be claimed a learned behavior. But the first?

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993745
09/18/20 01:16 PM
09/18/20 01:16 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
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I would say the gate kept him from going on home or you have found him in the dog house.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993749
09/18/20 01:30 PM
09/18/20 01:30 PM
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So is ability to reason prerequisite to ability to remember and learn, or is there no such things as "learn" or "remember", that everything already existed in instinct?

Around and around the little wheel goes what we don't know we suppose.


Retired Cost Accountant. Also retired from trapping.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993751
09/18/20 01:38 PM
09/18/20 01:38 PM
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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No.


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993830
09/18/20 04:00 PM
09/18/20 04:00 PM
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coalbank Offline
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The gate was wide open. Just saying. Thank you for your reply.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993834
09/18/20 04:09 PM
09/18/20 04:09 PM
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HobbieTrapper Offline
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Did he know that? Just asking. lol


-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993949
09/18/20 07:08 PM
09/18/20 07:08 PM
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coalbank Offline
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I think he knew he would be found there.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993954
09/18/20 07:13 PM
09/18/20 07:13 PM
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Didn't know his way beyond that point. No gps app on his cell phone.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6994522
09/19/20 10:53 AM
09/19/20 10:53 AM
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If yall ever wondered who was the bigger 'richard' on Trapperman, myself or Hobbie then here is your answer! whistle


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Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6994559
09/19/20 11:50 AM
09/19/20 11:50 AM
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If using tools is a learned behavior, who or what taught them? Another bird? Another chimp? And if so you still have the original that “taught” themselves.


Go as far as you can see, and you will see farther
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Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6994568
09/19/20 12:07 PM
09/19/20 12:07 PM
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Mark June Offline
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They say the average person today has as many or more facts stored in their brain as the Harvard graduate of 1900 did. Facts, figures, stats, that kind of stuff.
Are we developing better brains then?


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Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: cmcf] #6994618
09/19/20 01:37 PM
09/19/20 01:37 PM
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james bay frontierOnt.
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Originally Posted by cmcf
If using tools is a learned behavior, who or what taught them? Another bird? Another chimp? And if so you still have the original that “taught” themselves.

Mimicry.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6994635
09/19/20 02:16 PM
09/19/20 02:16 PM
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And “chew on this “ someone posted videos of cats freaking out at their reflection in a mirror. The exact same response was recorded in the wild children “humans” when they encountered their own reflection in a mirror.
So perhaps we should be asking is the ability to reason a learned behavior. I know for a fact that I have met quite a few adult humans that were totally without reason.


Go as far as you can see, and you will see farther
Zig Ziglar
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