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Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: BernieB.] #6992283
09/16/20 06:02 PM
09/16/20 06:02 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,978
Northern Michigan
J
J.Morse Offline
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J.Morse  Offline
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,978
Northern Michigan
....
Originally Posted by BernieB.
Originally Posted by J.Morse
I have seen too many critters doing things that required, in my arm-chair biologist mind, actual reasoning ability. That being said, I believe any beast with a brain advanced enough to have a "memory" has the ability to reason. What is reason if it isn't a memory of things the animal has experienced and is acting on?



Reason and memory are two different things altogether. What is reason? In it's simplest for it is logic; basically the ability to figure out "If this, then that." No animal has ever been able to complete this basic logic, no matter how hard scientists try, they cannot find any behavior that cannot be explained by learned behavior. That includes communication, use of tools, etc. Humans can reason, animals cannot.

Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion.


C'mon Bernie, aren't you one of those guys that says big boar bear kill cubs so they can breed with the sow? I've heard that said by all manner of people. I think we are defining "reason" two different ways. I believe animals can reason, but I don't believe they have the ability to take it up a notch or two and, for and example, think " if I eat that cub, I can expect it's mother to come into estrous a year earlier than if I don't eat it". Isn't it reasoning when a bear shifts it's late summer range to take advantage of a good acorn crop, or other food source? How about the folks in Montana/Wyoming that say Grizzly Bear are habituated to rifle shots meaning food. Are they not reasoning that there may be grub over there where that shot just rang out? Is it not reason, or just memory? I say they can be one and the same. As for your statement about emotion.......I believe they have that too. Watch a dog you've known for years, you can tell when they are happy or maybe pouting.


Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992327
09/16/20 06:52 PM
09/16/20 06:52 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,140
Champaign County, Ohio.
K
KeithC Offline
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,140
Champaign County, Ohio.


Keith

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: BernieB.] #6992382
09/16/20 08:15 PM
09/16/20 08:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,386
Michigan
M
Michigander Offline
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Michigan
Originally Posted by BernieB.


Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion.


You can't be serious? You have never saw a happy animal? An animal that was scared?


Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992422
09/16/20 08:50 PM
09/16/20 08:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,223
Wyoming
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cmcf Offline
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Wyoming
How about the animals graveside greaving for the loss of their master for so many years that monuments are erected to honor the animal. Many instances.


Go as far as you can see, and you will see farther
Zig Ziglar
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992534
09/16/20 10:21 PM
09/16/20 10:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 27,185
james bay frontierOnt.
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Boco Online content
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james bay frontierOnt.


Reason and memory are two different things altogether. What is reason? In it's simplest for it is logic; basically the ability to figure out "If this, then that." No animal has ever been able to complete this basic logic, no matter how hard scientists try, they cannot find any behavior that cannot be explained by learned behavior. That includes communication, use of tools, etc. Humans can reason, animals cannot.

Here's another one to chew on. Only humans have emotion. [/quote]

C'mon Bernie, aren't you one of those guys that says big boar bear kill cubs so they can breed with the sow? I've heard that said by all manner of people. I think we are defining "reason" two different ways. I believe animals can reason, but I don't believe they have the ability to take it up a notch or two and, for and example, think " if I eat that cub, I can expect it's mother to come into estrous a year earlier than if I don't eat it". Isn't it reasoning when a bear shifts it's late summer range to take advantage of a good acorn crop, or other food source? How about the folks in Montana/Wyoming that say Grizzly Bear are habituated to rifle shots meaning food. Are they not reasoning that there may be grub over there where that shot just rang out? Is it not reason, or just memory? I say they can be one and the same. As for your statement about emotion.......I believe they have that too. Watch a dog you've known for years, you can tell when they are happy or maybe pouting.

[/quote]

Your describing pavlov's dog(pavlovian conditioning),not reasoning in the least.

Last edited by Boco; 09/16/20 10:23 PM.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992556
09/16/20 11:03 PM
09/16/20 11:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 1,806
West Central MN
2
20scout Offline
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West Central MN
Only humans have emotions? I have a hard time believing that. Everyone shows emotions differently so how can you say animals don't show emotions? Tell me your dog doesn't show happines when you give them a treat? Tell me they don't show remorse when they're done something wrong?

Last edited by 20scout; 09/16/20 11:04 PM.

Common sense is a not a vegetable that does well in everyone's garden.
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992626
09/17/20 05:50 AM
09/17/20 05:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,439
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
Is fear an emotion?



-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992720
09/17/20 08:05 AM
09/17/20 08:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,926
Houghton Lake, MI
strike2x Offline
trapper
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Posts: 2,926
Houghton Lake, MI
I set trap, catch critter, dispatch said critter, skin critter, dispose of remains, sleep well at night, REPEAT. Maybe it is I, the wrapper that shows no emotions. Critters may remember things like where food is o what others smell like but it is all instinct driven. My 2 pennies.


Wish I had more time to trap....
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6992749
09/17/20 09:10 AM
09/17/20 09:10 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,257
La Vernia & Dallas TX
Mark June Offline
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La Vernia & Dallas TX
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
There appears to be as many types of reasoning as there are stray cats in an Asian restaurant dumpster.



I heard a goodin a few months back by a German pyscologist when asked about the American educational knowledge;

He said, "They are a mile wide and an inch deep on all subjects."
What? He are not a mile wide!

Ouch.

shocked


Dallas Theological Seminary
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Predator Trapping Academy Host - 2021 is booked



Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992751
09/17/20 09:12 AM
09/17/20 09:12 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 30,248
McGrath, AK
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white17 Online content

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McGrath, AK
Instinct or reasoning ??





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Mean As Nails
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992774
09/17/20 09:42 AM
09/17/20 09:42 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,042
IA
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teepee2 Offline
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IA
A lot of good stories here, but I don't know if they are proof that animals can reason. I had a german shorthair when I was young, great dog can't remember a bird I knocked down that he didn't find. One time he went on point, I walked in and a quail got up I dropped it. Then another got up dropped it too. All in all 8 quail got up one by one and I had my limit. But they kept getting up one at a time. I went up to the dog, and I'll be darned. He had ran the whole covey down a ground hog hole and was leaving them up one at a time. But he couldn't reason that the limit was eight.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6992790
09/17/20 10:03 AM
09/17/20 10:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 255
Pennsylvania
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Science says dogs have emotions. Breeders will say the same. Fear, joy and anger are the ones I see in my dog.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6993679
09/18/20 11:48 AM
09/18/20 11:48 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 255
Pennsylvania
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coalbank Offline
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Pennsylvania
Originally Posted by HobbieTrapper
Originally Posted by coalbank
If my dog can't reason, he has me fooled. As a matter of fact he fools me often.


You certain you arenít fooling yourself?

Not exactly. Perhaps my understanding of Reasoning is flawed.

This morning my dog ran with the 4wheeler for quite awhile and was tiring some. He runs off the trail and down the hollow or whichever way his freedom takes him. A few times I noticed when he was downhill from me and saw my direction of travel was his way he sat and waited for me to get there. Is it reason that leads him to believe that he can wait there. He has never been on this trail before. Rudimentary reasoning? Not claiming he is Socrates but he suprises me all the time with his wit.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993693
09/18/20 12:25 PM
09/18/20 12:25 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,790
KY.usa
rex123 Offline
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KY.usa
There are many shows that shows monkeys using rocks to break nuts open to eat what's inside and crows using sticks to reach inside places to get bugs.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993698
09/18/20 12:38 PM
09/18/20 12:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,257
La Vernia & Dallas TX
Mark June Offline
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La Vernia & Dallas TX
I find it fascinating that we try to figure out the animal kingdom.
I wonder if animals do the same about humankind?

smile


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https://www.markjuneslures.com/
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Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: coalbank] #6993707
09/18/20 12:57 PM
09/18/20 12:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,439
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,439
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by coalbank

Not exactly. Perhaps my understanding of Reasoning is flawed.

This morning my dog ran with the 4wheeler for quite awhile and was tiring some. He runs off the trail and down the hollow or whichever way his freedom takes him. A few times I noticed when he was downhill from me and saw my direction of travel was his way he sat and waited for me to get there. Is it reason that leads him to believe that he can wait there. He has never been on this trail before. Rudimentary reasoning? Not claiming he is Socrates but he suprises me all the time with his wit.


I would say pack hunting instinct.



-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: HobbieTrapper] #6993737
09/18/20 02:04 PM
09/18/20 02:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 255
Pennsylvania
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coalbank Offline
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Pennsylvania
Ok another example. A good friends dog is gun shy. We were preparing traps one day when the sound of the snaps were too much for him and he dissapeared. Our search found him waiting by the gate to my place quite a ways away. Did reason tell him he wouldn't miss the ride home there? The second time it could be claimed a learned behavior. But the first?

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993745
09/18/20 02:16 PM
09/18/20 02:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,439
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,439
Eastern Shore of Maryland
I would say the gate kept him from going on home or you have found him in the dog house.



-Goofy-
Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993749
09/18/20 02:30 PM
09/18/20 02:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,071
Southeast Idaho
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Southeast Idaho
So is ability to reason prerequisite to ability to remember and learn, or is there no such things as "learn" or "remember", that everything already existed in instinct?

Around and around the little wheel goes what we don't know we suppose.

Re: Reaoning power of animals [Re: nate] #6993751
09/18/20 02:38 PM
09/18/20 02:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,439
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
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HobbieTrapper  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 16,439
Eastern Shore of Maryland
No.



-Goofy-
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