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Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993268
09/17/20 08:37 PM
09/17/20 08:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,700
Rodney,Ohio
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Rodney,Ohio
Before changing your church, you might want to try having your current church drop out from the SBC or whatever denomination you belong to doing this kind of nonsense to separate. Our church in its 150+ year history as belonged to a few different orgs. We left the United Methodist after their issues several years ago. Due to some weird bylaws that were involved we had to buy back the church and grounds once they determined that with so many churches in the county, that it wasnt feasible to kick us out and restart the church.

Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993272
09/17/20 08:40 PM
09/17/20 08:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,917
La Vernia & Dallas TX
Mark June Offline
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Lee,
You are correct brother. These are the 3 churches experiencing growth in recent years. But, as you can imagine, there are many variances even under these tents. I'm attending Dr. Robert Jeffrees 1st Baptist Dallas while I'm here in Dallas, but I church and served as elder at an EFCA church in San Antonio for a number of years, and I have seen variances in both these branches as I pop into one or the other when we travel (which used to be more often). The EFCA statement of faith, is strong if you are Protestant, traditional, and historic in your doctrine, but I have been in a couple that were not really following their own doctrinal statement? Tiss the way of this world.

There's no question that a strong, orthodox teacher in our faith is a blessing.
There's a bunch of strong ones out there too!

Blessings,
Mark


Dallas Theological Seminary
https://www.dts.edu
https://www.markjuneslures.com/
Predator Trapping Academy Host - 2021 is booked



Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993300
09/17/20 08:57 PM
09/17/20 08:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 202
Idaho
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Idaho
If the SBC changes their name to be politically correct, I believe their membership will drop even more. When they came out with the Holman translation of the bible I read it, I will not use it, some of the passages are not accurate at all. I will stick to the KJV, NKJV, or the NASB as they are far more accurate(IMO). I'm tired of people trying to please man instead of GOD.


Member NTA, ITA, and USRTA
Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993308
09/17/20 09:02 PM
09/17/20 09:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 5,362
Arkansas
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I guess the SBC feels they are guilty of the sins of their fathers.
This member has his own sins to battle, I'm not responsible for the sin's of others.
However, I will diligently pray for all that battle and I hope the same in return.


1 Samuel 17:45-47
Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: lee steinmeyer] #6993329
09/17/20 09:12 PM
09/17/20 09:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 883
Indiana
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Originally Posted by lee steinmeyer
Originally Posted by Providence Farm
I believe we were warned that the church will be corrupted. My eyes were opened when the Lutheran and Presbyterian church decided to endorse and support same sex marriage. As sad as that is it was good for me and made me start read my bible more. I decided I needed to avoid any smoke others may be blowing.


There are three denominations in the Lutheran faith. The one of which you speak is the ELCA. I could not go to church with that crowd! There is also LCMS, which is Lutheran Church Misouri Synod, and WELS, which is the Wisconsin Synod. WELS is more conservative than LCMS, and we have had some issues crop up at convention time, several times, but have been able to quell it. Libralism (isms) is a terrible mental disorder!


I'm not educated on all the denominations or differences between them . Let alone splits between each. I have Mainly attended southern Baptist, nondenominational, Pentecostal, and Presbyterian. My grandfather grew up Lutheran but switch to Presbyterian when he married my grandmother. My great ant and stayed Lutheran tell she died.

I know her church received a trust fund of over 300k + the money from 20 acres of the farm I bought from the estate. At her funeral the pastor asked me how I was doing. When I answered conflicted he perked up and got excited to console me. When he asked more of the point of what I was conflicted about the answer and following question surprised him.
I said I'm conflicted because when the Lutheran Church decided to support same sex marriage I swore I would never set foot in one again yet here I am and the funeral has made a lier out of me. I was respectful and said unless I'm missing something and you can explain it to me.

He tried for 10 min sermon about it making everyone feel accepted and included. I listened respectfully and when he had finished responded: I understand what your saying but I believe you are wrong and strongly disagree. Inclusion is having the openly known same sex couple sitting welcome in the pew next to you and loving them like the brothers and sisters that they are. Not judging them or treating them any differently than anyone else. Sin is sin and theirs is no worse than mine. What you are doing goes way beyond inclusion it not only condones sinful behavior but celebrates it and makes a mockery of one of the most precious institutions in the church. That marriage is not just between myself and my wife but between myself my wife and God with God at the head.

He weakly attempted to respond and after stumbling around hastily moved on. I felt embarrassed having called into account the pastor in his own church yet also strange but greatly refreshed like a weight had been lifted ?

Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993433
09/17/20 11:02 PM
09/17/20 11:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,444
Asheville, NC
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charles Offline
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Asheville, NC
Is church membership as a whole declining in America? I think it might be.

Civic organizations are seeing set lining memberships. Many people dont get evolved because they dont know where they will be a year from now.

Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: Providence Farm] #6993437
09/17/20 11:12 PM
09/17/20 11:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 12,585
Wheaton Ks
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Originally Posted by Providence Farm
Originally Posted by lee steinmeyer


There are three denominations in the Lutheran faith. The one of which you speak is the ELCA. I could not go to church with that crowd! There is also LCMS, which is Lutheran Church Misouri Synod, and WELS, which is the Wisconsin Synod. WELS is more conservative than LCMS, and we have had some issues crop up at convention time, several times, but have been able to quell it. Libralism (isms) is a terrible mental disorder!


I'm not educated on all the denominations or differences between them . Let alone splits between each. I have Mainly attended southern Baptist, nondenominational, Pentecostal, and Presbyterian. My grandfather grew up Lutheran but switch to Presbyterian when he married my grandmother. My great ant and stayed Lutheran tell she died.

I know her church received a trust fund of over 300k + the money from 20 acres of the farm I bought from the estate. At her funeral the pastor asked me how I was doing. When I answered conflicted he perked up and got excited to console me. When he asked more of the point of what I was conflicted about the answer and following question surprised him.
I said I'm conflicted because when the Lutheran Church decided to support same sex marriage I swore I would never set foot in one again yet here I am and the funeral has made a lier out of me. I was respectful and said unless I'm missing something and you can explain it to me.

He tried for 10 min sermon about it making everyone feel accepted and included. I listened respectfully and when he had finished responded: I understand what your saying but I believe you are wrong and strongly disagree. Inclusion is having the openly known same sex couple sitting welcome in the pew next to you and loving them like the brothers and sisters that they are. Not judging them or treating them any differently than anyone else. Sin is sin and theirs is no worse than mine. What you are doing goes way beyond inclusion it not only condones sinful behavior but celebrates it and makes a mockery of one of the most precious institutions in the church. That marriage is not just between myself and my wife but between myself my wife and God with God at the head.

He weakly attempted to respond and after stumbling around hastily moved on. I felt embarrassed having called into account the pastor in his own church yet also strange but greatly refreshed like a weight had been lifted ?


I'm proud of you for taking a stand like that, and you are very correct that he is condoning sin. One of my biggest pet peeves is "watered down religion"! If in doubt, go back to the bible, scripture interpets scripture!


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Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993446
09/18/20 12:18 AM
09/18/20 12:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 21,015
nm
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My buddy (a Lutheran) was telling me about this last night.
J Staton I always recommend go to a bible believing biblically solid biblical teaching church. Remember, there is no perfect church on earth but a church that is biblically sound is good.

Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: lee steinmeyer] #6993451
09/18/20 01:21 AM
09/18/20 01:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 883
Indiana
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Indiana


I'm proud of you for taking a stand like that, and you are very correct that he is condoning sin. One of my biggest pet peeves is "watered down religion"! If in doubt, go back to the bible, scripture interpets scripture![/quote]

Thanks but the credit belongs to my Mother and Grandparents that raise me To love God and think for myself.

I find its quite simple really. Anytime my opinion or anyone else's is contrary to Gods I'm/they are wrong.

Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993509
09/18/20 06:19 AM
09/18/20 06:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,917
La Vernia & Dallas TX
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There are many comments about the Bible, so I thought I'd offer one of our DTS professor's thoughts for y'all.

I attended chapel this Tuesday and Dr. Dan Wallace's message was among the best I've heard since I arrived at Dallas Theological Seminary a year and a half ago. I'll share the link, and invite you to hear a from one of the top 5 Greek scholars on the planet. You want to know what the Bible says in the New Testament? He literally wrote the book (small b). He has been on expeditions in his life and career to unearth over 100 new biblical manuscripts. He is the coolest guy, but honestly his Greek courses here are way above my ability in that language, so I won't take him as a prof..... but this message on putting Christology at the center - ahead of your Bibliology will forever help me and my wife who heard him also. I wish all Christians, especially Protestant evangelicals, could hear this type of message. He is truly a gift to all of us from our Creator. He helps point us to a proper persecutive.
.
It's 35 minutes but worthy of your time to watch it. My wife and I are beyond blessed to learn from such teachers.

Dr. Wallace helps any who ask, and as an example, during this message, he talks about the best translation of the greek word amen (when Jesus spoke) and it absolutely assists us as we read the entire New Testament.

https://voice.dts.edu/chapel/christ-at-the-center-a-bibliology-grounded-in-christology

Blessings,
Mark


Dallas Theological Seminary
https://www.dts.edu
https://www.markjuneslures.com/
Predator Trapping Academy Host - 2021 is booked



Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993702
09/18/20 11:48 AM
09/18/20 11:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 10,074
Central NC
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Fled the SBC about 15 years ago when they started letting women become deacons, which contradicts Scripture , and when their funds bought weapons in Columbia that killed some of our DEA agents.


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Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993709
09/18/20 11:58 AM
09/18/20 11:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,521
PA
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I'm not Baptist. But is this really a big deal or is it just a break with tradition? Tradition isn't the gospel and can in fact restrict the gospel.
Remember "fiddler on the roof" ? "Tradition.... tradition!"
People don't like change but not all change is bad.


Right now Im having amnesia and dj vu at the same time. I think Ive forgotten this before.
Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: PAskinner] #6993755
09/18/20 01:46 PM
09/18/20 01:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 5,362
Arkansas
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J Staton Offline OP
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Originally Posted by PAskinner
I'm not Baptist. But is this really a big deal or is it just a break with tradition? Tradition isn't the gospel and can in fact restrict the gospel.
Remember "fiddler on the roof" ? "Tradition.... tradition!"
People don't like change but not all change is bad.

The name change isn't the problem, the reason for the name change is. Political correctness isn't mentioned in the Bible, so why does it belong in the church? When political correctness infects the church the rot begins in my humble opinion.

Last edited by J Staton; 09/18/20 01:47 PM.

1 Samuel 17:45-47
Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993822
09/18/20 03:52 PM
09/18/20 03:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,740
Georgia
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Georgia
Originally Posted by J Staton

The name change isn't the problem, the reason for the name change is. Political correctness isn't mentioned in the Bible, so why does it belong in the church? When political correctness infects the church the rot begins in my humble opinion.


^THIS^

Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: warrior] #6993903
09/18/20 06:24 PM
09/18/20 06:24 PM
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Texas Hill Country
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Back in the mid 1970's I was associated with a company engaged in the exploration of oil and natural gas that solicited investors.
One of those investors happened to be the pastor of the First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas and was at the time or maybe later the President of the SBC. I believe he said the membership of his church at the time was around 20,000.

I will not speak any bad of the man but having spent time with him at the well sites and engaging in numerous conversations with him was quite an eye opener, to say the least.
I will say it changed my view of organized religion forever.

He passed a number of years ago and I pray that he is at peace.


Nature is my religion, the earth is my Church
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Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993906
09/18/20 06:33 PM
09/18/20 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by J Staton
Originally Posted by PAskinner
I'm not Baptist. But is this really a big deal or is it just a break with tradition? Tradition isn't the gospel and can in fact restrict the gospel.
Remember "fiddler on the roof" ? "Tradition.... tradition!"
People don't like change but not all change is bad.

The name change isn't the problem, the reason for the name change is. Political correctness isn't mentioned in the Bible, so why does it belong in the church? When political correctness infects the church the rot begins in my humble opinion.

What is the reason given for the change?


Right now Im having amnesia and dj vu at the same time. I think Ive forgotten this before.
Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993926
09/18/20 06:44 PM
09/18/20 06:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,740
Georgia
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To be more "inclusive" and shed the stigma of the actual origin of the convention (which at this late date matters not as the convention has publicly groveled numerous times). The origin occurred as the original National Baptist Convention met in Savannah in the 1840s. Messengers from the north refused to seat southern missionaries if the missionary happened to be a slave owner. Southern messengers broke away in response.
JMO we have nothing left to apologize for as a convention and this name change flies in the face of Paul's instruction to be not conformed to this world.

Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: J Staton] #6993937
09/18/20 06:52 PM
09/18/20 06:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,740
Georgia
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Georgia
The simple fact is that there is an ongoing "great falling away" with many local congregations closing their doors. My own almost 200 year old congregation is only a handful strong. I can show at least three within five miles that have already been shuttered with many others barely hanging on.
The convention is seeking outreach and new members. But here's the simple truth, window dressing ain't cutting it. 21st century people know marketing when they see it and turn away. It's one on one contact with Jesus through the local church that brings in souls.

Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: Cedar Hacker] #6993973
09/18/20 07:32 PM
09/18/20 07:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
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La Vernia & Dallas TX
Mark June Offline
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Originally Posted by Cedar Hacker
Back in the mid 1970's I was associated with a company engaged in the exploration of oil and natural gas that solicited investors.
One of those investors happened to be the pastor of the First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas and was at the time or maybe later the President of the SBC. I believe he said the membership of his church at the time was around 20,000.

I will not speak any bad of the man but having spent time with him at the well sites and engaging in numerous conversations with him was quite an eye opener, to say the least.
I will say it changed my view of organized religion forever.

He passed a number of years ago and I pray that he is at peace.


I'll touch on something here that might shed light on a topic that is deserving of better understanding and you touched on it Cedar Hacker; Why are so many in the organized church responsible for so much injustice? Many have left the church because of a disappointment with the people in it. Either the church leaders, maybe the folks who attend. Or both. First, I would offer that the judgment of the "sinning" christians begins 1st with: someone's presupposition (or what do I think) of what christians outta be like. Some churches you have known were civic oriented perhaps, full of grace, and devout, and perhaps others were only Christians in name only, true?

So let's look at the behavior of Christians - both individuals, and the church as a corporate gathering, that might give us a glimpse of why some christians disappoint the presuppositions of the watchful. Tim Keller, a servant-hearted, orthodox evangelical in New York City (an area where it could not be harder to start a church) is a very insightful servant who lives these questions every day in his area. People bombard him with these questions all the time. He has found 3 issues stand out; 1. There is the issue of christians character flaws. If Christianity is the "Truth," why are so many non-christians living better lives than christians? 2. what about the issues of war and violence. If Christianity is the Truth, why has the institutional church supported war, injustice, and violence in its history; 3. Even if christianity is the Truth, why would someone want to gather with some who are smug, and self-righteous, and quite honestly - fanatics? Church leaders oftentimes, seem to be more corrupt than average folks! All these are really valid questions. If Christianity is all it claims, shouldn't christians be a whole lot better than some are?

Let's answer with the mistaken assumption that Christianity actually teaches about itself. Christian theology has taught what is known as common grace. James 1:17 says, "Every good and perfect gift comes down from above.... from the father of lights." That means that God casts out common grace, according to the brother of Jesus, on ALL people God created. In other words, in a unmerited way, all humanity is endowed as the created, whether they are religious or not.

But a central message of the Bible is we can only have a special relationship with God by His sheer grace. His miracle. Not ours. And Christian theology is explicit on the seriously flawed nature of real Christians (professing with their hearts not their lips). Too many think their works of this world entitle them to God's miracle. That is not good interpretation of Scripture, but sounds good if you as preacher/teacher want to rule, and leave God out of it. And we should admit, against presuppositions, that a church looks a lot like a hospital rather than a museum for saints as Keller often says. I agree. In fact, I argue, that people from a broken past, or a broken plan, or a broken life, often walk into a church with nothing much to lose. These folks, like all, the Bible tells us, can be redeemed in one sense (justification), but have a long journey (sanctification) with the aid of the Spirit, on the other.

I read the Gospel of Matthew often, and you will see Jesus conducting a major critique of "His" religion in that day! Matthew chapters 5, 6, & 7 is all about Jesus criticizing religious leaders... not unbelievers. He says the religious leaders don't live according to Scripture, but rather for power, and money, and fame. The leaders think they'll get to heaven (resurrection) that way, and he tells every last one, nope, none will enter through my gates. "They think they will be heard for their many words...." - Matt. 6:7. These were the fanatics of that day, and we still have them.

Some understand that the humble will be exalted and the prideful will be laid low. But those who, in our churches, use a spiritual and ethical observance to make themselves look good so they can stand ahead of others, are not christians in their heart. I've met too many, and I remind them that it is God of Jesus and the prophets that saves completely 100% by His Grace. God 100. Man 0. They usually don't care for those kind of comments, because some people like power. Some are greedy. Some are just hard hearted. And some, to give them credit, come from a culture of pride and position, and status, and so they layer their religion on top of that rather than start cleaning house.

None of us are even close to perfect. If I go 20 seconds without sinning, I'm on a roll. But I don't profess to be a follower of other people who follow Christ... I'm the follower of Christ so it's an individual decision that we are then suppose to work at as a body of like hearted thinkers. Not, like minded.... like hearted. I know Scripture is pretty clear on us being now in the Church era, proclaimed by Christ while He was on earth, and sanctified at Pentecost. So we deal with all this, the best we can, until He returns. We trust that His plan is for our good, although some folks irritate us beyond measure,

Blessings,
Mark





Dallas Theological Seminary
https://www.dts.edu
https://www.markjuneslures.com/
Predator Trapping Academy Host - 2021 is booked



Re: SBC Going Woke? [Re: warrior] #6993981
09/18/20 07:46 PM
09/18/20 07:46 PM
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Posts: 17,134
Eastern Shore of Maryland
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Originally Posted by warrior
It's one on one contact with Jesus through the local church that brings in souls.


Seen it first hand and it is a wonderful thing. That said, the politics and business of the church suck.



-Goofy-
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