I think you are mis characterizing Morris. He does not believe in evolution. He is saying that evolutionary theory needs millions of years, that is all. Unless I am misunderstanding you.

What bewilders me is that he actually believes that evolution could work if given enough time; it can't work even with a lot of time. This implies that he does believe in the possibility evolution if given enough time.

So, it stands to reason why Morris so vociferously has to argue that the earth is young; he feel threatened by the idea that the earth could be very old.

When you have a bias and then look for ways to confirm it you run into trouble. Young earth folks like Ham, Morris, and others start with a presupposition that the earth is young and then look for ways to confirm it. In the same manner well known atheistic evolutionists like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and others start with the presupposition that there is no God therefore there is no creator, and then try to confirm their bias. Both are unscientific and not scholarly.

AMEN!! He arose! His Word is true and His promises sure. "Come now let us reason together..." (Isaiah 1:18)

Waggler, you will have to give me a reference for what you say Morris said. There is no way he believes evolution would work, even with billions of years.

So what the context of evolution? Just look how we have changed dogs. But that not the same as creating a entirely new species. Although I believe hybrid are in process further than we know in labs.

I also believe man made climate change is a farce. But we definitely have a major effect on the environment from cities, landfills and dams to interstate.


Exact definitions help everyone stay on the same page.

I'm in the the Bible is the word of God young earth camp.

The creation story in the Bible is a very simple story. GOD CREATED. We just tend to make it complicated.
It is interesting to ponder though.

There has never been a proven example of interspecies mutation. You can't move species to species to species without it. Evolution is a theory, as there are many theories in science. My thesis was on transmutability in an invertebrate species back in my noodle-head grad school days, so I got to see first hand what research science was all about;

Mostly scientists setting out to prove their own personal presuppositions (what they already think). We all have presuppositions, and we really don't like to change them once we land on them.
Does anyone really think that there's a human alive, at a higher educational research level that is a "blank slate?"
Heck no.

There are scores of environmentalists right now, researching "environmental science" to prove (to everybody else) what they already "know."
It is the very opposite of unbiased.

Blessings,
Mark

Mark if you ever make plans to make it up to the creation museum or Ark in Ohio seems me a pm and let me know and I will try to make it at the same time.

PM,

That'd be cool. Absolutely. I need to get my butt up to see my sister and hubby in Ashland, so stay tuned.

Blessings,
Mark

C.S. Lewis is one that immediately comes to my mind. I don't think he would consider himself an evangelical scholar or in any way a theologian. But I would feel comfortable considering him both a scholar and a conservative evangelical that held the Bible as the infallible Word of God. He definitely didn't believe in a young earth.


Personally, I don't know how old the earth is. I know there's evidence that would seem to say it is much older than 6,000 years. But, I believe in the supernatural. I'm not even sure that time itself is what we think it is. So, maybe it is only 6,000 years old. I couldn't say for certain that it would be impossible. Heck, it could be only ten minutes old for all I know. Or maybe the the entire existence of the universe is only like a flash of lightning to the Almighty. Or, maybe God created the world exactly like it is now immediately after Noah's flood. There's so many possibilities it's hard to imagine.

You know Kart29,

I really hope your tribe increases and you get top billing to say a few words wherever your wanders take you.

If our faith in Christ rests upon proving these types of things, is it really faith through Christ (not in Christ) at all?

Blessings,
Mark

This has been my favorite thread in awhile. Academic, intellectual, theological, informative and very respectful. Thanks Waggler, Mark and you other guys that have contributed.

Hey Waggler, I'd very much like to hear your personal theories/ideas about the age of earth vs the Bible narrative. You stated that you don't find conflict there, and mentioned some respected sources, but I'd like to hear you elaborate on your own thoughts if you'd care to.

Why should we believe God let us in on all his secrets? He created all things, who's to say he didn't experiment with growing some dinosaurs before deciding to wipe the slate clean and create Adam? In my opinion the more you study the sciences with an open unbiased mind, the more you realize the only answer to it all is GOD.

Much like the Bible. The more we study it, the more we learn; this Book is simple, yet deep beyond description.
My professors here at DTS are all scholars. To the person. Talk about smart.
ALL of them admit, all of them,
that as younger folks, they thought they knew, a whole bunch more, than life has shown them they really knew.

They admit they will die on this earth, not knowing all there is to know about the depths of Gods Word.
And that may be why we need all eternity to praise the Name of the Father, Son, and Spirit and keep on learning.
And still we will not be gods. We are still His children, created by the Glory of God.
That gives me pause every time they humbly, with a big smile on their face, profess it to all of us students.

Blessings,
Mark

I have not read this entire thread but I will put in my two cents.

God doesn't need millions of years to create the Earth or the universe. He could have if he wanted too, but he can speak it all into existence if he wants. He exists outside of time and space, those are concepts that apply to us, not to Him.
Evolution is going on around us every day. Survival of the fittest, adaptation, extinction, etc. Does anyone really believe that there were dozens of different kinds of deer on the ark, for example? Well I do not. Today there are whitetails, mule deer, roe deer, red deer, blacktails, moose, elk, and a dozen others in the deer family that could have easily all come from a pair of deer on the ark that didn't look anything like the members of the deer family we have today. Did it take 6,000 years to get to this point? 10,000? who knows. Heck, I've only been here for 60 years how would I know what the deer looked like even 1,000 years ago?

If you do some research on the flood and it's consequences, there are a lot of things that fall into place and make sense to what we see in our environment and climate today, including petrified wood. The petrified forest in the western US is entirely made up of trees with no root wads on them. They sunk there in a gigantic lake that covered most of North America. Yet the park service has signs that says they grew there and have been there for millions of years, which is impossible.

People will believe what they want to believe, they are more interested in validating their own opinions than they are in valuing truth. The entire Darwinian evolutionary thought process that's being taught in schools these days is built on that house of cards: adding those evidences that support your agenda and discarding the evidences that don't.

I am at peace with the fact that I cannot know everything about the history of the Earth and the galaxy and beyond, and I am also at peace with the knowledge that once I arrive in heaven, I will probably have answers to these questions. At this point in my life, I don't feel the need to know everything about God and the things he did well before my time. I am more interested in knowing Him, than knowing about Him.

You know for a bear hunting, trap setting, fish catching kind of guy BB, you are a pleasure to read.


Blessings,
Mark