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Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #6999476
09/24/20 10:24 PM
09/24/20 10:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,032
Coldspring Texas
Savell Offline
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.... you’d have had to kill yourself back then to be in compliance ... Old Testament and New Testament is a contradiction.. basically an all knowing and all powerful perfect creator changed his/her/it’s mind

... and the Adam and Eve story is the equivalent of putting a piece of bacon in front of a puppy and then torturing it for taking a bite

... it’s a Levantine religion book. The same as the.. Quran.. Talmud... Torah......And maybe Lord of the Rings lol


... I know people that feel the call can find peace... wether it’s real or a mind trick .. it’s peace just the same I guess... I apologize for being a contrarian on this type of thing

Last edited by Savell; 09/24/20 10:29 PM.

Insert profound nonsense here
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #6999482
09/24/20 10:35 PM
09/24/20 10:35 PM
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Florida
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bjansma Offline
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The Bible is a rich history of God's salvation for his people. Some of it can be hard to understand.

God's chosen people, the Isrealites were given an impossible set of rules to follow. These rules were put in place to show their inability to be justified by following a set of rules. Rather, it showed their need for a new deal, if you will. It showed their need for Jesus. Its good to keep this in mind when trying to interpret some of the stuff you read in the OT.


Bob Jansma
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: bblwi] #6999491
09/24/20 10:47 PM
09/24/20 10:47 PM
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Posts: 9,154
Alaska and Washington State
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waggler Offline
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Originally Posted by bblwi
I can see and work with the asking Jesus to come into my heart but is there a need to ask Jesus personally for forgiveness when God had him put to death on the cross to forgive us for our sins? So that promise from God is not freely given I or we have to ask for it?

Bryce

I don't really see where we need to ask for forgiveness; but we have to confess our sins to God, we have to agree with him that we are sinners and and He will then forgive us of sin through the "work" of Jesus Christ's suffering, death, and taking on the penalty for our sins. We then need to have the attitude of repentance, which means turning 180 degrees away from practicing a rebellious attitude (sin) towards God. If we don't exhibit this attitude and desire of repentance I think there might be a good chance that our initial confession may not have been sincere.


"My life is better than your vacation"
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: waggler] #6999494
09/24/20 10:51 PM
09/24/20 10:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 862
Ohio
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Gone Trappin. Offline OP
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Originally Posted by waggler
Originally Posted by Gone Trappin.
So I’ve been trying to connect with god and I’m making sure I have all the logic I need to support myself in an argument. And I found Deuteronomy 13 which basically says to kill infidels... if there is no better context nor further evidence that negates this, what makes Christianity different than Islam, or even good at all if we are supposed to kill non-Christians?

You have grossly misread, taken out of context, and misapplied Deuteronomy 13; actually the whole book up to that point. I don't mean to come down hard on you but what you are doing is a very common mistake.

This book was written while the Jews were wandering in the wilderness, it was written specifically to them for that particular time; to keep them from going astray.

There is nothing in there directing them to "kill infidels". Read it again without a bias; God is instructing them to put to death any of their own people who start to go astray and follow other gods. Sounds rather harsh, that is true. But for the particular time it was necessary.

This is a good example of scripture that is descriptive rather than prescriptive. There is a huge difference between the two. Many off-base cults have resulted from twisting something that is merely descriptive and making it prescriptive.



Thanks, that really cleared it up for me. I’m a Christian but I’ve been trying to understand the full meaning and all the details of the Bible. I knew that god wouldn’t want me killing people who disagree which is why I asked the question, I was unsure. You cleared it up though, thanks.

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Savell] #6999496
09/24/20 10:53 PM
09/24/20 10:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,063
Marion Kansas
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Yes sir Offline
"Callie's little brother"
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Marion Kansas
Originally Posted by Savell
.... you’d have had to kill yourself back then to be in compliance ... Old Testament and New Testament is a contradiction.. basically an all knowing and all powerful perfect creator changed his/her/it’s mind

... and the Adam and Eve story is the equivalent of putting a piece of bacon in front of a puppy and then torturing it for taking a bite

... it’s a Levantine religion book. The same as the.. Quran.. Talmud... Torah......And maybe Lord of the Rings lol


... I know people that feel the call can find peace... wether it’s real or a mind trick .. it’s peace just the same I guess... I apologize for being a contrarian on this type of thing

Your first point is dead on Savell. Perfect description of the need for Jesus. The point about God changing his mind i feel is more about God teaching us his lesson and teaching us our need for Jesus. I know I've given my kids a little free rein so they might see that the old man knew a little bit about what he was talking about.
What happened to Adam and Eve was a result of God loving us some much he gave us free will to walk with him in perfect harmony but we fell short. Free will without temptation isn't free will.

Your point about the Bible being the same as the others, I would have to ask are you basing that off of the fact that you have a good complete understanding of them or rather just because that narrative fits your preconceived view?

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: waggler] #6999497
09/24/20 10:55 PM
09/24/20 10:55 PM
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Posts: 11,296
East-Central Wisconsin
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bblwi Offline
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Admitting I am a sinner is a whole lot different then having to do it because God did not follow through with his promise to grant forgiveness for our sins and transgressions. If God indeed did create all of us he knew from the beginning we were and are sinners. He brought a savior that he said would take away our sins. Now I can see where my repentance and asking forgiveness is important for me to do so I treat God's fellow humans better. We do seem to take advantage of the grace and mercy of God regularly and some seem to work harder at being better at sinning then others do.

Bryce

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #6999506
09/24/20 11:08 PM
09/24/20 11:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,032
Coldspring Texas
Savell Offline
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Yes Sir

... from my understanding... they all are the “Old Testament “ ... except for the Lord of the Rings lol


Insert profound nonsense here
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #6999514
09/24/20 11:18 PM
09/24/20 11:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,063
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
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Similar yes. But my understanding is there are some differences including the author.

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Yes sir] #6999517
09/24/20 11:26 PM
09/24/20 11:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,032
Coldspring Texas
Savell Offline
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Originally Posted by Yes sir
Similar yes. But my understanding is there are some differences including the author.


... same God ?... and same disgust for us lowly gentiles ?


Insert profound nonsense here
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Yes sir] #6999533
09/24/20 11:46 PM
09/24/20 11:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62,661
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline

trapper
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Minnesota
Originally Posted by Yes sir
Originally Posted by Savell
.... you’d have had to kill yourself back then to be in compliance ... Old Testament and New Testament is a contradiction.. basically an all knowing and all powerful perfect creator changed his/her/it’s mind

... and the Adam and Eve story is the equivalent of putting a piece of bacon in front of a puppy and then torturing it for taking a bite

... it’s a Levantine religion book. The same as the.. Quran.. Talmud... Torah......And maybe Lord of the Rings lol


... I know people that feel the call can find peace... wether it’s real or a mind trick .. it’s peace just the same I guess... I apologize for being a contrarian on this type of thing

Your first point is dead on Savell. Perfect description of the need for Jesus. The point about God changing his mind i feel is more about God teaching us his lesson and teaching us our need for Jesus. I know I've given my kids a little free rein so they might see that the old man knew a little bit about what he was talking about.
What happened to Adam and Eve was a result of God loving us some much he gave us free will to walk with him in perfect harmony but we fell short. Free will without temptation isn't free will.

Your point about the Bible being the same as the others, I would have to ask are you basing that off of the fact that you have a good complete understanding of them or rather just because that narrative fits your preconceived view?

Very Good points


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #6999604
09/25/20 06:05 AM
09/25/20 06:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Eastern Shore of Maryland
Forgiveness is a demonstration, “forgive us as we forgive.”

Romans 10:9

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


-Goofy-
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7000164
09/25/20 04:57 PM
09/25/20 04:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 180
Flint Hills, KS
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jht Offline
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Flint Hills, KS
Interesting topic. It's difficult to discuss these things on the internet because everyone already has their mind made up, their own way of either dismissing these weird and violent old testament stories or of glossing them over with some Jesus-talk (not that Jesus talk is bad, it is as others have said, the point of the book). This is just too tempting to pass up, so I'll throw in my two cents.

This is a much larger topic than can be addressed in an internet post, and I'm afraid I'll leave too many important rabbit trails unexplored. First, the division between the new and old testaments isn't really that helpful here. The Bible is telling one story, and its culmination is Jesus. The god of the old testament is the same as the one in the new testament. Jesus is the embodiment of the old testament God. Understanding the story of the old testament and its meaning is difficult, and it usually leads to issues like the one being discussed here. Many people that are happy to believe the touchy-feely Jesus parts end up having a serious crisis when they begin to read the Torah and Prophets. If you can get a handle on how the old testament authors are telling the story, you'll see that God is every bit as compassionate and gracious as Jesus and that Jesus is often quite snarky and judgemental (at least with "religious" people).

The real underlying question to start with is: What is the Bible trying to communicate? I think many (maybe most) modern western Christians would say that the Bible is a sort of handbook or rulebook that explains the problem with you and your life, the way to deal with that problem (by following rules, having the right mental theology, saying the correct prayer, etc.), and so how to achieve salvation (whatever that means) and go to the happy place when you die. The problem is that the Bible isn't attempting to do that. The Bible is a story about what God is doing in the world. It's asking (and answering) all of the existential questions we all have if we take the time to think about life: Why are we here? What is the nature of the universe? What is the nature of humanity? What is the nature of God? Why is life so full of unmet potential? In addressing those questions, because you are a member of humanity and a resident of the universe, the Bible can help you understand your problems and how to deal with them. It also can introduce the idea of God's salvation and what that actually means. Why do I need to be saved? What am I being saved from?

The answers to all of these questions in the Bible have their roots in Genesis 1-3(ish), and an important part of that is what Savell mentioned about that those trees. The creation story isn't really (perhaps I should say "only") about history; it's about these existential questions that I listed above. The two trees represent a choice. Will people choose the Tree of Life as a gift from God, or will they attempt to become their own gods and so destroy themselves and each other? It's not about God testing and then punishing the people. Leading up to this point in the story, God has created a beautiful world full of potential to become better, and He put humans in that world in order to rule it under His authority. He has taken a chaotic wasteland and turned it into a garden where humans can flourish. The task of the humans was to continue that work: expand the garden, rein in those chaotic waters so that humans can thrive. God has called all of this "good" or "very good". He also says that it is "not good for man to be alone". So up to this point, God is the authority on what is good and not good. Then we are presented with a tree that offers us the authority to know good and not good for ourselves, but God says it will lead to death. I think the choice before the humans is whether or not they will rule the world as God's representatives using His wisdom that leads to life, or will they seize the power and authority for themselves? We know what they chose, because we make that choice every day. We redefine good and evil in a way that is convenient or beneficial for ourselves at the expense of others. It's also important to note that, while God says they will die when they eat of the fruit, God doesn't kill them, in fact He provides for them. They do have consequences, namely they are cut off from the source of God's life, and that's where God's mission to restore humans to their original purpose and potential starts. God isn't running around punishing the people for their choice, He's trying to bring them back and restore the blessing that they had (or could have had) in Eden.

In order to restore the Eden blessing to all of humanity (this is always mentioned as God's purpose), God decides to work with Abraham and his family. Read Genesis, Abraham and all of his descendants make the same choice that Adam and Eve did. As a result, they become slaves in Egypt, but God rescues them from that (again in order to restore blessing to all of humanity). After Israel's salvation from their oppressors, God make an agreement with the whole nation, just like He did with Abraham. Israel as a nation will live by God's wisdom in order to show the world what God's character is like, but just like all of the other humans before, they fail miserably. The Deuteronomy passage that started this thread is Moses, sitting at the edge of the promised land (somewhat symbolic of Eden) and recounting the story of Israel up to that point. He urges them to "choose life". If they, as a nation, were to represent God to the nations, they could not tolerate people who would lead the people of the nations to follow and represent other gods. Moses evidently wanted them to take that very seriously. Read Judges through Kings, and you'll see that just like Adam and Eve and Abraham's family, they do not choose life. They fail miserably. Even the greatest hero kings in the story are terribly flawed. When David has his moment before the tree, he plucks Bathsheba up and becomes an adulterating murderer. Solomon is actually depicted as a new Pharaoh. The prophets really lay into these kings and the people of Israel for failing so miserably, and the old testament ends with the nation having been destroyed the Eden blessing is still far, far away.

I'm spending way, way too much time on this, but it's a big story. Jesus enters the stage at this point as the one who will save Israel and restore that blessing, but he doesn't do it by overthrowing Rome and reestablishing Israel's kingdom or their temple. In fact, he tells them the temple will be destroyed, instead he says that he is the path to life. He then gets himself killed - hanging on a tree!

I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that the Bible is a story about how God is trying to restore humanity and the world from its broken, destructive state. He isn't out to punish people for their mistakes. The natural consequences of those mistakes are more than enough punishment. In fact, the this is the concept of (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) in the Bible. It's not a subterranean torture chamber where God punishes us. It's the world we've created by being our own gods. That's what God is constantly saving people from in the Bible. That's what salvation means. It's not what happens after you die. It's about what you're doing with your life now. Are you unleashing (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) on Earth, or are you expanding the Garden?

Savell is right, by the way, the Lord of the Rings is totally telling the same story. I could go on for hours, but I shouldn't.

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Savell] #7000229
09/25/20 06:20 PM
09/25/20 06:20 PM
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Southern Illinois
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Originally Posted by Savell
Originally Posted by Yes sir
Similar yes. But my understanding is there are some differences including the author.


... same God ?... and same disgust for us lowly gentiles ?


Yeah, but even the puppies get the scraps!

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7000345
09/25/20 07:59 PM
09/25/20 07:59 PM
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Freely it was given and Freely it must be accepted you don't ask for it you declare im on your side i thank you for the gift.


No matter where you go there you are.
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7000436
09/25/20 09:42 PM
09/25/20 09:42 PM
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Like the constitution depends who interprets it and for what purpose, just my opinion but it has been written several times over and everyone gets a different meaning from it. For me it can be interpreted in two words do good, hard to go wrong with that.

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7000474
09/25/20 10:12 PM
09/25/20 10:12 PM
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^^^^^^
Yes, but the writers of both the Bible and the Constitution had specific meaning and intent when they wrote down the words. Neither were written with the idea that future generations should reinvent the meaning and intent.


"My life is better than your vacation"
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7000475
09/25/20 10:13 PM
09/25/20 10:13 PM
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Alaska and Washington State
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waggler Offline
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^^^^^^
Yes, but the writers of both the Bible and the Constitution had specific meaning and intent when they wrote down the words. Neither were written with the idea that future generations should reinvent the meaning and intent.

It can be hard work to arrive at a non-bias conclusion to the original intent of some things, but it is possible to do.


"My life is better than your vacation"
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7000505
09/25/20 10:35 PM
09/25/20 10:35 PM

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Mark June
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There's this guy who's really strong on the Old Testament and I find his insight extremely helpful when I read his commentaries on the Hebrew Scripture.

Paul.

The only scholar better than Paul at commenting on the Old Testament is another strong Christian;

Christ.

The One who wrote it by the Power of His Spirit.

If you church where they do not teach the Old Testament, run, don't walk to a Christian church that does.

Blessings,
Mark

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7000526
09/25/20 11:05 PM
09/25/20 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Gone Trappin.
So I’ve been trying to connect with god and I’m making sure I have all the logic I need to support myself in an argument. And I found Deuteronomy 13 which basically says to kill infidels... if there is no better context nor further evidence that negates this, what makes Christianity different than Islam, or even good at all if we are supposed to kill non-Christians?


You need to look at the forest, not just the trees. God sent his son to die at the hands of the "infidels" yet he never spoke a word against them other than to say that they know not what they do. He allowed himself to be crucified by them although he could have stopped it at any point. He asked his Father to forgive them for their ignorance. That there is the difference. One of Jesus' disciples, Peter, chopped off the ear of an infidel and Jesus chastised his friend for it. Jesus wanted people to hate the sin, but NOT the sinner, believing that every sinner (infidel) stood the chance of being saved.


~~Proud Ultra MAGA~~
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7000533
09/25/20 11:20 PM
09/25/20 11:20 PM
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We are saved through faith by grace. God’s grace because he loves us no matter what. I think it goes I am the Way the Truth and the Life meaning everlasting life. No man shall enter except by me. There is no possible way for mankind to know that Christ lived died and rose again therefore we must have faith that he did and through that faith by grace we will be granted eternity in Heaven.


"Skin that smokewagon and see what happens"
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