The Marcions were a sect of Christianity in the 2nd century deemed heretical by the Catholic (Universal) Church in 144 AD. Marcionites believed that there were two separate Gods, a God of Wrath in the Old Testament and a separate God in Christ in the New Testament. Marcions Christology didn't allow him to believe in a Triune God, or the OT. He was severely excommunicated as a false teacher, but like many things, ideas live on. There are still sects of "Marcionites" (under different names) alive today.

The narrative of the Bible is 66 Books in the Protestant faith and 73 Books in the Roman Catholic faith. The Eastern Orthodox lies between these two depending on the region. Bottom line, Christ was the fulfillment of the Law and the prophets oracles in the Old Testament, and you can't teach/preach/understand the story accurately without reading the whole canonical book. It is available for us today via supernatural divine providence.

There is no unrighteous wrath in the Old Testament. The 2nd most important word in all of the OT (after Yahweh) is found in the crucial passage of Exodus 34:60-7. These are the revealed characteristics of our Creator. A covenantal love for His created image bearers called hêsed in Hebrew. We have no English language word that can even describe the love of God for us, so the English translators invented a new word centuries ago in an attempt.... they merged "loving" with "kindness" to try and capture Exodus 34:6-7... and called this new word; lovingkindness.



Blessings,
Mark

The way I understand it, is we have to repent from our sins before welcoming Christ into our lives. I think while God may love us no matter what, we cannot spend our entire live sinning and expect a place in Heaven with no remorse felt for our sinful actions....

^^^^^^^
Repent means to turn around and go the other direction. That happens after confession of sin and accepting Jesus's offer of eternal life.
You could never really truly repent without the help of the Holy Spirit, which we receive upon trusting in Jesus.

Someone who says they are a Believer yet has not, and refuses to turn away from sinful practices is walking a dangerous path imo.

I am not saying a Believer will not sin; the important word that is found in the new testament warns against those who "continue to practice" a particular sin. Practice implies repetition; kind of like "practice makes perfect", (but not in a good way).

I am just reading and not answering ... Learned my lesson

At this seminary, we're being taught the hermeneutical exegetical method to teach/preach Holy Scripture.
Meaning;
1. Observation: read it
2. Interpret it
3. Application of it

Wondrously our first courses starting with Genesis in the Old Testament are taught with absolute encouragement (and grades) related to ONLY doing #1 in the hermeneutical exegesis.
It's almost impossible. I mean, no interpreting, no application. Flat read it only, noting plot, characters, antagonist, protagonist, all the stuff you do if you read any other book or magazine article.

The American Church is about 50% application. 45% interpretation. 5% observation. In that order. Sadly, many pastors, preachers, priests, and ministers only spend a minimal amount of time in #1: reading the Word. Americans like it hot: whatcha got for me? What do I need to know. I'd say read it. Without trying to parse every word and sentence.

Important question: If you don't read the story front to back, yet you bring preconceived interpretations to the story, plus you're always mind drifting to "what does this mean to me?"... how accurate may your #1 really be?

I'll tell you on behalf of all I attend with, they are retooling us - and it's a wondrous thing. We just read, use the original Hebrew and Greek languages as we go, and it's pretty cool to watch unfold. God's story about Him, revealed for us to know Him, gets deep into our created souls as intended if we stop trying to figure out #2, and #3 all the time. They apply. But not until you really let the Word sink deep. Otherwise, misinterpretation is a real concern.

Try it. Read the Bible using only #1. No #2 and absolutely stay away from #3 while you do it. It's actually easier for someone brand new to the faith as they don't have many old sermons and "teachings" parked in their mind already.

If you do, you'll no doubt experience just how wondrous the Logos (Word) was meant to be.
Donna and I began to read like this early last year when I started my studies. A bit every night as a couple. We got about 10 chapters into Exodus, not a particularly emotional portion of the Good Book, and my bride got emotional. I asked her how come? She told me, "I'm understanding the story of God like never before, and I don't know, it's just getting to me." I smiled of course. And then she asked me a really good question; "How come churches don't do something like this?" Um. I told her they try. But we all can

Blessings,
Mark

It sure seems like to me that the saving by a god, from the gods wrath, is a little misplaced. Wouldn't it make more sense just to not to threaten people with torture in the first place?

I like the bacon analogy.

I like to tell people to put a bowl of candy out in plain sight of little kids that are playing. Tell them not to eat one then hide and watch. As soon as they do beat them without mercy and hold the candy theft over their head for the rest of their lives.

Looks to me like the god of the bible changed his mind also.

Now I know you are supposed to suspend rational thought to enter into a religious frame of mind but I have a real hard time doing that. I have tried but I just can't believe all those legends . Or make any sense out of stuff like worship me says god because I love you, and if you dont then I will torture you. The torture will be your fault for not loving me.

Sounds a lot like what all those people convicted of domestic abuse would say.

^^^^^^
Where did you get the idea that a person must "suspend rational thought to enter into a religious frame of mind". There is so much misunderstanding out there about faith, belief, and the nature of God; such as He will "torture" us if we are out-of-line.

Unfortunately a lot of misinformation is probably the result of centuries of poor theology and teaching by people who identify as Believers.

They were in a garden full of fruit trees, and God said don't eat from that one.

They so doing, by eating from that tree, decided how to define right and wrong for themselves, and not let God define it for them.

God knew that that ultimately leads to unhappiness.

That's why they weren't allowed do eat from the other tree, and have access to eternal life.

God doesn't want give eternal life to someone just to have them be eternally miserable.

They have to understand how God wants them to live, so they can know true happiness, before they can receive eternal life.

You never stop sinning while you are here.

The “torturing God” folks will ask, “If He is all knowing, then He knew they would eat from that tree and what would become of them, so why did He do that?”


As trappers we should understand this probably more than anyone. When we take to our trapping grounds, we set into motion a change of events that lead to a prescribed response. When that chain is broken we become intrigued by the creature and try different methods of guidance. Some even will think of this critter as “special”. We know it’s going to happen but we don’t do anything different until it does.

Just because you know everything about something doesn’t stop you from doing it.

Because we have free choice.

I don't believe in eternal torture, but that isn't my point.

God can't create someone with good character.

It has to be developed.

God said trust Me, live this way, I will show you how to live.

The snake said God's lying to you, life is better this way..

Paul said that the lessons of the OT are for our example.

You go on to read story after of people who didn't trust God.

In judges you read the common refrain "everyone did was right in their own eyes" and things were a mess.

The fruit looked good in Eve's eyes.

So God is letting mankind see for themselves.

For now.

You say to Petr, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Actually you brand him as a type of person who tells untruths (like all of us tell sometimes unfortunately). Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.
What good does it do to call him out?

Then sir, you feel the prideful urge to comment on this thread where people don't believe what you do or how you do, starting your comment with "it seems to me" as you give us how you would set it up if you were god.
Where did you get your omnipotent world view?

I mean no disrespect, and you are certainly welcome to an opinion in a free country as everyone tells us we live in.
Free from what?

My grandfather, who now resides in heaven, awaiting the trumpets of the 2nd Adam, used to say when he saw people rioting on the streets or mayhem on the evening news.
"Look at all those know-it-alls. What's this world coming to. Sure wish they'd all eat a bit of humble pie."


It's not what you say.
It's how you say it.
Blessings,
Mark

Thats funny you calling me prideful. I have to go change shirts. Blew coffee all over this one.

I'm prideful. The deadliest of the seven deadly sins perhaps. The nation of Edom were the prideful ones, prone to anger. They aren't among us anymore, but we can read about them and learn if we care to.

Your typing on this forum comes across the web as prideful.
Perhaps you didn't realize it.
I thought I might lend you a brotherly hand and point it out .

We can exchange ideas about Christianity on this thread if you'd care to.
And no worries, the Spirit convicts, not me.
I'm just a trapper saved by the blood of the Lamb.


Blessings,
Mark

Are you a sinner? Does God view you that way and do you view yourself that way? That's the important question to answer.

I stay off most of these threads. I do think what I believe is as important as what you believe.

Unlike AR folks I dont try to claim your way of life needs to be outlawed. Just like to remind folks that not everyone believes in the supernatural.

Sure we're all sinners. We have to be. We're still here in a fallen world not yet made new.
We someone places their faith in Christ, (made righteous legally - my sin debt has been paid in a judicial sense) we as Protestants believe past, present, and future sins are covered by the Son's blood before our perfect Holy Father. Roman Catholics believe a bit different. Christ died only for past sins a person has. Roman Catholic faithful work with the Holy Church for present and future sins.

But sure, we still sin in this life. Head into any church and we see it. We wish it wasn't so perhaps, but Scripture clearly points out justification is instantaneous but sanctification is not.

As a Reformed Protestant, we believe that just like Adam and Eve didn't technically drop dead when they ate the fruit in the garden (sin), we don't drop in the spot in this life when we sin (it's a good thing right there), but we are dead in the greatest sense before God.

No one can stand before God as a sinner. His Glory doesn't allow it. All sinners die. Even Moses caught a glimpse, not the full on Glory. Adam and Eve would have died had God not covered them in skins. That's what the sacrifices were in the OT. A covering. No one has seen the Father except the Son, who can stand perfect in the full on Glory. The Glory that created all of everything that we rationally try and figure out.

The Good News of the OT and the NT was always a Messianic message of - It's all about resurrection. The next life. And our covering is the blood of the Son.
People say, "your God should show Himself to prove he's God." I tell 'em.... ah, you can have that, but you'd be dead. Happened all the time in the OT. Every time someone touched or peaked in the Ark - bam - dead on the spot.

Scripture tells us the wages of sin are death. We're all gonna die because all are sinners and all have sinned.
It's all about the next home.
And of course, the Spirit is promised to the redeemed, so we get scrubbed up a bunch while we wait. Usually kicking and screaming because we love to "everyone was doing evil in the sight of the Lord." Small stuff. Big stuff. I try and go 20 seconds with sinning and I smile victory! Then, bam.
Good thing God has hêsed for His chosen.

Simple to envision.
Hard to explain and figure out.
I don't really try that much.

Blessings,
Mark

Sure.

But I would offer,
it's not illogical.

Rather, it's supra-logical.

Thanks for not advocating outlawing. That'll happen soon enough.

Blessings,
Mark

not from me. i am big on freedom

Agreed.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, we could prolly sit down together trapping brother, sip a cool beverage under a big ol' oak tree, and figure out what each of us likes to be free from.

Blessings,
Mark