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Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: danny clifton] #7000811
09/26/20 10:07 AM
09/26/20 10:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 180
Flint Hills, KS
J
jht Offline
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jht  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 180
Flint Hills, KS
Originally Posted by danny clifton
It sure seems like to me that the saving by a god, from the gods wrath, is a little misplaced. Wouldn't it make more sense just to not to threaten people with torture in the first place?

I like the bacon analogy.

I like to tell people to put a bowl of candy out in plain sight of little kids that are playing. Tell them not to eat one then hide and watch. As soon as they do beat them without mercy and hold the candy theft over their head for the rest of their lives.

Looks to me like the god of the bible changed his mind also.

Now I know you are supposed to suspend rational thought to enter into a religious frame of mind but I have a real hard time doing that. I have tried but I just can't believe all those legends . Or make any sense out of stuff like worship me says god because I love you, and if you dont then I will torture you. The torture will be your fault for not loving me.

Sounds a lot like what all those people convicted of domestic abuse would say.


I think you speak for a lot of people with these points. However, if we’re talking about a god that tortures people for misbehaving, condemning them to eternal torture in a fiery pit, then we are no longer discussing the god of the Hebrew Bible. That’s Greek/Roman Tartarus, imported into Christianity through the writings of people like Dante or Milton. In the Bible, people torture themselves and each other, and God is trying to rescue them from that. His wrath is against oppressive, cruel people or nations whose only goals are destruction and death. Even then, He always offers a way out.

The God of the Bible absolutely changes is mind. Read the golden calf narrative as an example. He is portrayed as having emotion and being willing to change his plans based on what any situation requires. What is described as unchanging is his attitude and purpose in restoring people and the world to their original purpose.

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: jht] #7000833
09/26/20 10:40 AM
09/26/20 10:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by jht
Originally Posted by danny clifton
It sure seems like to me that the saving by a god, from the gods wrath, is a little misplaced. Wouldn't it make more sense just to not to threaten people with torture in the first place?

I like the bacon analogy.

I like to tell people to put a bowl of candy out in plain sight of little kids that are playing. Tell them not to eat one then hide and watch. As soon as they do beat them without mercy and hold the candy theft over their head for the rest of their lives.

Looks to me like the god of the bible changed his mind also.

Now I know you are supposed to suspend rational thought to enter into a religious frame of mind but I have a real hard time doing that. I have tried but I just can't believe all those legends . Or make any sense out of stuff like worship me says god because I love you, and if you dont then I will torture you. The torture will be your fault for not loving me.

Sounds a lot like what all those people convicted of domestic abuse would say.


I think you speak for a lot of people with these points. However, if we’re talking about a god that tortures people for misbehaving, condemning them to eternal torture in a fiery pit, then we are no longer discussing the god of the Hebrew Bible. That’s Greek/Roman Tartarus, imported into Christianity through the writings of people like Dante or Milton. In the Bible, people torture themselves and each other, and God is trying to rescue them from that. His wrath is against oppressive, cruel people or nations whose only goals are destruction and death. Even then, He always offers a way out.

The God of the Bible absolutely changes is mind. Read the golden calf narrative as an example. He is portrayed as having emotion and being willing to change his plans based on what any situation requires. What is described as unchanging is his attitude and purpose in restoring people and the world to their original purpose.


Careful.


-Goofy-
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: amspoker] #7000842
09/26/20 11:00 AM
09/26/20 11:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,399
wisconsin
cowboy2005 Offline
trapper
cowboy2005  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,399
wisconsin
Originally Posted by amspoker
Quote
.. and the Adam and Eve story is the equivalent of putting a piece of bacon in front of a puppy and then torturing it for taking a bite


They were in a garden full of fruit trees, and God said don't eat from that one.

They so doing, by eating from that tree, decided how to define right and wrong for themselves, and not let God define it for them.

God knew that that ultimately leads to unhappiness.

That's why they weren't allowed do eat from the other tree, and have access to eternal life.

God doesn't want give eternal life to someone just to have them be eternally miserable.

They have to understand how God wants them to live, so they can know true happiness, before they can receive eternal life.


The Adam and Eve story may be like putting bacon in front of a puppy but my sister has hers trained to the point where she can and that dog will NOT eat it till she says so. But back to the point, God gave man free will and put him on a perfect earth and said "you can eat from any of these trees but that one" so its like giving kids bowls and bowls of candy and saying don't eat the gum drops. If God had never made that tree or giving Man free will we'd be nothing more than puppets on a string. And i know that some stories from the Bible are hard to believe, but theres NO scientific reason why the human body should function, they can't explain life, the worlds smartest people can't explain why the universe should exist. So that right there is proof of a God.





Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7000853
09/26/20 11:20 AM
09/26/20 11:20 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



The greatest theologian since the Apostle Paul is probably Augustine of Hippo.

He just had a simple ways with complex thoughts.

His solution to those in his day, faced with questions about the big questions in life.

“Believe so that you may understand.”

The other way around is an endless and hopeless road where the opposition wants us to travel with him.

Augustine is great reading.

Blessings,
Mark

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7000860
09/26/20 11:32 AM
09/26/20 11:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,460
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
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white marlin Offline
trapper
white marlin  Offline
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W

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,460
central Haudenosaunee, the De...
Hobbie,

read the story of Jonah and God's attitude towards Ninevah...

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7000867
09/26/20 11:42 AM
09/26/20 11:42 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,482
Ne pa
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Jerry Jr. Offline
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Jerry Jr.  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,482
Ne pa
Originally Posted by Gone Trappin.
So I’ve been trying to connect with god and I’m making sure I have all the logic I need to support myself in an argument. And I found Deuteronomy 13 which basically says to kill infidels... if there is no better context nor further evidence that negates this, what makes Christianity different than Islam, or even good at all if we are supposed to kill non-Christians?


It isn't. Millions of non christians have died at the hands of christians for not believing in their god. Same can be said about islam.


Time is more precious than gold if you know how to spend it
.... but what do I know, I'm just a dumb farmer.~My Dad
NRA LIFE MEMBER, Endowment Member
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: ] #7000870
09/26/20 11:43 AM
09/26/20 11:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,717
Maine
M
Mac Offline
trapper
Mac  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,717
Maine
Soon to be Rev Mark, you basically slammed Danny as you explained how he was wrong slamming an anti.
Where does it say Judge not least be judged?

Who is right or who is wrong? Not for me to decide.
I simply hate to see someone basically tell someone tell someone else take a flying leap in a rolling donut, and blessing to ya, enjoy the trip.

I realize you may or may not meant to put him down, but like so many educated theologians, "it seems to me" that you simply dress up the words a tad when calling someone prideful. Give me a break Marky. It it is all true, we ALL will be judged. If it is not, at least we can be decent human beings.

You will be a great salesman for God. Of that there is little doubt. Get a big church they pay well, better than coyotes.

Everyone should be more interested in a personal relationship with Jesus than sweating the small and big stuff. There off my soap box.

Oh yea, never trust a suit.

Blessings to all,
Mac



Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7000902
09/26/20 12:23 PM
09/26/20 12:23 PM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



I was trying on a thread forum to humbly ask another trapper to not call names, while first admitting my sinful nature.
Is this judging Mac?

Asking someone to not call others liars? Would that be judging?

No need to call me a salesman with fancy words. Marky? I didn't mean to strike any nerve. That noun means I did. I apologize.

Iron sharpens iron, true?
Judging may be better viewed as "I don't do it, but you do."
I never, and will never claim perfection. Quite the opposite. I started each time with a humility as best I can muster. Prolly could do better.

I was just trying to ask another man if he'd notch it down a tad as he calls others names.
Asking him to reconsider that stance would not be calling him names.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'll not be pastoring a large church, or a small one either.
Donna and I are blessed to enjoy what we do, and not need more money. We thank God.

I would agree, we have already been judged.

Blessings,
Mark

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: white marlin] #7000906
09/26/20 12:30 PM
09/26/20 12:30 PM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by white marlin
Hobbie,

read the story of Jonah and God's attitude towards Ninevah...


Jonah had a heart like those he mistrusted and hated > gentiles. Jonah was as they were however: hard-hearted and self-righteous.
He was the only prophet God called, among the 16 prophets of the Bible, that did not have a heart for God.
He would not repent. He hated the pagan Assyrians. And he didn't want to go to Nineveh with a repent message from God.
God had him go anyway.

Glad us pagans are grafted in. If Jonah had his way, no dice.
God wins.
It's another Yahweh of the Old Testament love story.

Blessings,
Mark

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: white marlin] #7001134
09/26/20 05:29 PM
09/26/20 05:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by white marlin
Hobbie,

read the story of Jonah and God's attitude towards Ninevah...


Sorry, I forgot the sarcasm font. I keep thinking people read my post and know me. lol


-Goofy-
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: HobbieTrapper] #7001247
09/26/20 07:30 PM
09/26/20 07:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,293
East-Central Wisconsin
B
bblwi Offline
trapper
bblwi  Offline
trapper
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,293
East-Central Wisconsin
The citizens of Nineveh repented and turned to God. (they changed, they came to believe) and Jonah did not feel they deserved forgiveness of their sins. He sat out side of the city and pouted. Many stop in Jonah at the whale, some stop with Jonah's bias and dislike, some read all the way and see that it also is hugely about Nineveh and how people and societies can change and that message can even come from real prejudiced doubters if we listen to God and not the messenger.

Bryce

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7001255
09/26/20 07:46 PM
09/26/20 07:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,829
KY.usa
rex123 Offline
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rex123  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,829
KY.usa
Mark June you are a lot of things but humble ain't one of them brother.

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: bblwi] #7001549
09/27/20 05:45 AM
09/27/20 05:45 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by bblwi
The citizens of Nineveh repented and turned to God. (they changed, they came to believe) and Jonah did not feel they deserved forgiveness of their sins. He sat out side of the city and pouted. Many stop in Jonah at the whale, some stop with Jonah's bias and dislike, some read all the way and see that it also is hugely about Nineveh and how people and societies can change and that message can even come from real prejudiced doubters if we listen to God and not the messenger.

Bryce


X2

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: rex123] #7001552
09/27/20 05:58 AM
09/27/20 05:58 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by rex123
Mark June you are a lot of things but humble ain't one of them brother.


I'll ask for grace when it comes to folks mocking those who seek religious faith. Some may think, "no big deal." I haven't quite got to that point yet.

Sadly, on the morning of November 5, 2017, a young man walked into a church 7 miles east of where Donna and I were attending church that sunny Sunday morning, and killed 26 people, and wounded 20 more. The shooting at the church in Sutherland Springs, Texas. The visiting pastor and 7 of his family were all shot and killed at point blank range. In the chaos of that Sunday morning, our church's phone rang, with the county sheriff's department declaring a state of emergency, and an urging of our church (as the next local church to the carnage occurring), to immediately vacate, lock down, and secure. It was a terrible morning.

All of us lost friends and friends of friends that day. Now stands 27 white crosses (including one for the shooter who was shot and ultimately took his own life) on the roadway next to this small country Baptist church.

Asked what could have made this happen? How could it be? Only God knows.
But a news summary of the man commented;
According to some of his former high school classmates, he was constantly "trying to preach his atheism" and describing people who believe in God as "stupid", causing them to delete him as a friend on Facebook for his posts.

Yes. I'm far too thin skinned on the shallow mocking of the religious in our nation. I plead guilty. And I wish it had never been so.

Blessings,
Mark

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7001564
09/27/20 06:29 AM
09/27/20 06:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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williamsburg ks
Mark you can get as upset as you like. It won't change the fact that some people are just not going to believe in things supernatural.

When somebody claims humans are not a part of the natural world it IS a lie. Whether that persons worships Gaia, Vishnu, Allah, Jehovah, or believes solely in the big bang and evolution, humans are here naturally. I suppose the Scientology people could say otherwise. They believe we were put here by intelligent creatures from outer space.

Petr made reference to Gaia. So I don't think he is a Church of Scientology type.

So I still unashamedly say that the A.R. philosophy " humans are not a part of the natural world ", is a lie.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Gone Trappin.] #7001569
09/27/20 06:36 AM
09/27/20 06:36 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



I can agree we are part of the natural world. 100%.
I wouldn't call what I am upset though.
Thin skinned = defensive.
But I'm not upset.
Never was.
I'd put it more in the "sad about the situation" file.

I don't P off very easy. Never have.
Except the time in 4th grade.
That was wild.


Blessings,
Mark

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: ] #7001571
09/27/20 06:52 AM
09/27/20 06:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
HobbieTrapper Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"
HobbieTrapper  Offline
"Chippendale Trapper"

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 28,715
Eastern Shore of Maryland
Originally Posted by Mark June

I don't P off very easy. Never have.
Except the time in 4th grade.
That was wild.


Blessings,
Mark


I disagree.


-Goofy-
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: jht] #7001583
09/27/20 07:38 AM
09/27/20 07:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,650
Southeast Ohio
amspoker Offline
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amspoker  Offline
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Southeast Ohio
Originally Posted by jht


I think you speak for a lot of people with these points. However, if we’re talking about a god that tortures people for misbehaving, condemning them to eternal torture in a fiery pit, then we are no longer discussing the god of the Hebrew Bible. That’s Greek/Roman Tartarus, imported into Christianity through the writings of people like Dante or Milton. In the Bible, people torture themselves and each other, and God is trying to rescue them from that. His wrath is against oppressive, cruel people or nations whose only goals are destruction and death. Even then, He always offers a way out.

The God of the Bible absolutely changes is mind. Read the golden calf narrative as an example. He is portrayed as having emotion and being willing to change his plans based on what any situation requires. What is described as unchanging is his attitude and purpose in restoring people and the world to their original purpose.


Well said


Levi
Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: rex123] #7001887
09/27/20 01:00 PM
09/27/20 01:00 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,491
Southern Illinois
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Foxpaw Offline
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Foxpaw  Offline
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,491
Southern Illinois
Originally Posted by rex123
Mark June you are a lot of things but humble ain't one of them brother.



I wouldn't worry too much Mark, if a popularity poll was taken today to see who was the most humble person in the bible, I doubt Moses would score too high.

Re: I have a question about Christianity. [Re: Foxpaw] #7001907
09/27/20 01:25 PM
09/27/20 01:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,293
East-Central Wisconsin
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bblwi Offline
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bblwi  Offline
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East-Central Wisconsin
During the time of the Old Testament writings and living the lands were crammed full of "stiff necked people" and funny thing is after 2,000 years of Christianity the world is crammed full of them yet! Lots and lots of work to be done and done by those who are willing to change and turn around.

Bryce

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