Hey guys, I hear a lot of talk on this subject. I got my check from fha yesterday, and I’m really wondering if this is end of the industry as we know it. I know there’s a lot of variables to it, but in what’s your opinion? Will the market ever come back?

I freaking hope so.

Gonna take awhile, but it will improve. To what level may be the question.

As long as ranch fur is over produced at times the market will be up and down but will be here for ever .

It may not be in our life times but I believe a time will come when fur will be in such great demand the concern for the well being of fur bearing species will exist once again.

.no more

[quote=walleyed]


I loath drugs and I don't drink at all, I find it turns people into What have you obviously been drinking?

If it survives it will be in a different form than it used to be. Prices will stay low until we deal with China in some way.

Not going to happen anytime soon unless foreign markets open up relations with china are in the tank right now and that is what brought the market back. Use of synthetics is not helping and then with the anti fur and fashion designers not using it does not help.

Until gas is 6 dollars a gallon and EVERYTHING you buy says Made in China; the market will be tanked

I believe It's the beginning of the end of the fur Industry.

With synthetics and ranch fur I do not see the market coming back strong. Even if rats were worth 10 and coons 30 would that be anything to get excited about? Not many guys are going to be full time fur trappers in the future, end of a era.

Define "industry" As to size, scope, impact etc. The fur industry like many has been centralizing and standardizing for decades and that was in response to a growing market. If we are in a declining market the will the centralized fur industry continue to shrink and maybe disappear. If so we will wind up with thousands of small cottage fur businesses worldwide which will survive and maybe thrive but at much different size and scope as to what we have seen the last decades. Most of us will not find a way to participate in a small cottage type industry that is basically a side income for many and not much world impact financially.

I would be one if I did not have a commercial market I would not be sourcing out firms that want a couple furs of each species etc. that is something others can do. It does look like even at my advanced age a small scale ADC trapping component would work better for me with a whole lot fewer aspects of the harvest to invest in and work on.

Bryce

I think it will be around, but it will be different. Remember a place called Montgomery Ward, and Kmart, and many other businesses that refused to change, and they thought the world needed them a whole lot more than they needed the world. Things are a changing and if the fur industry doesn't change it will fall by the way side. This is just my opinion of course.

di·ver·si·fi·ca·tion

And just what change do you propose?

[quote=Donnersurvivor Even if rats were worth 10 and coons 30 would that be anything to get excited about?[/quote]
Yes

I also think the industry will look different but will still be around.

I also think the industry will look different but will still be around.

Zing.

I think we'll see improvement starting next year, not much mind you, 2 to 3 years I believe we'll see levels approaching the last mini boom.

Call me crazy.

just rember.......what bill tyler said.......beaver will shine again.......and he was right. most ofr the mountain men thought fur was done and buried in the mid 1830s.....the fur industry is a roller coaster ride...........not for the faint of heart.

Yallz want to be prophets again! What do ya win for having the right answer? I'm gonna trap every year I have left on this earth, and the market has always been a rollercoaster. ALWAYS! Will trap for what I can still sell and for other uses. PERIOD!

I typically would only sell my marten in auction. All the beaver/mink/otter get tanned,wolves get rugged, skulls get cleaned. Everything gets sold to tourist traveling thru on cruise ships.. I’ve talked to hundreds of tourists from all over the world that want fur and bones. so I believe the fur fashion/fur demand will never die but the auction houses may downsize and trappers without a local market might not show up until the next boom.

x2 well put Lee!

Nope the fur industry is not over. Probably never will be. Currently fur is in almost every major fashion designers lineup. In my opinion the fur auctions have done a terrible job on the promotion side. Fur is green, and green is in these days. Its a big subject and lots of angles to look at but I believe fur will be around for a long time. The auctions need to hire outside PR firms that know what they are doing.

Fur market and fur industry is going to continue to get worse. If fur industry ever gets any better the fur will have to be dirt cheap, When something becomes of no value the product eventually dies.

I really don't see much growth in the fur markets in the future.

China will be looking for fur pretty soon. If Biden gets elected and works out an agreement it should bring some of it back.

Screw chinah.

ya he does have a track record of china deals doesnt he !!

I'd definately give up the fur market....what is left, not to have biden for a year, much less four!

Biden couldn't slap himself on the arse let alone put anything together.
I think fur will always be fashionable the same as beef and pork will be fashionable. People will consume it as long as someone else takes the dirty work out of it.

Long as people want to fight the elements for a dime an hour there will be some sort of fur 'market'. Here in the south hasn't been one for over 30 years now outside a few years

of sky high otter price's. Glory days are gone, what a time it was.

Good point, Grackle.

Is a frogs butt water tight?

49ER nailed it.

Yep He is crazy.

Forget coons I think we're gonna see 30 dollar rats this year! Lol no matter what the prices are guys who love it are still going to trap and alot of new guys are getting interested in trapping as well. My youngest brothers doing his course this year if he can get a spot, apparently the trapping courses are booked.

That's not grackle, that's Joey Marshrat from NYS.

I dont think you can compare fur to food or call meat "fashionable".

Gaga would disagree.

Turn off the heat and put on a fur coat. Save the planet from global warming, or climate change what ever you want to call it.

Stick a fork in it the fur market is done. I've been trapping for 50 years I have seen the market go up and go down but nothing like today Sadly it is over.

Nope^^
Its cheap, but it aint over.

Everyone said the fur market was over in the late 90's. We are in unique times though.
Mike

One or two more stimulus packages followed with more QE will put the DXY(dollar market) at levels as low or below the last lows.

It will be a good time to be in commodities.

Fur market is not over, if you have the lifespan for a few more years in the game.

Looks like a lot of people dont know much about the fur industry historically.
It has been far worse off than now several times over the last 500 years.
It always goes up and down,and will go up again.

Yeah, he’ll make Hunter his fur czar.

Boco, you need to keep in mind when we get $1.00 for something you get $1.30 or thereabouts.

This is the worst I've seen it and I wouldn't be afraid to say it's the worst it's been in 150 years.

Correct me if I am wrong but Ranch fur and warm, durable synthetics were never available like they are now. I see that as the difference.

You are wrong-silk killed the beaver hat market 180 years ago.
Also nothing manmade is as warm as real fur.

Are your traps for sale? What ya got?

I really have no idea what it will take. Maybe it is finishing (getting your fur tanned) all your fur and selling it directly to the finale customer, or a large warehouse that sells directly to the customer. At this point I think GFW has the best business model going. Hopefully he can find a way to keep moving fur. I guess I am just saying we need to start thinking outside the box. All I know is the current business model (auction house) doesn't seem to be working. I hope I am not getting anyone all fired up, I am just trying to get people to think a little different.

You are not wrong. Many things are way different than the first 400 years of the fur industry. The last 100 years are the only relevant years. Many things are way different from when I started trapping. There is so much more competition for luxury spending today than just 50 years ago.

Thank you Lee!

Dale

Hi Dale. Long time no see! I heard you were running a resturant down there in them hills! Hope you are doing great. I'll see you one of these days again, I hope. Take care, bud!

I have to agree with Boco. Ups and downs. Doesn’t matter what you are involved in things change but still have value. I said 15 years ago kids started school in a one room school house in western Kansas in the 1800’s and will eventually start in a one room school house in the 2000’s. Just watching a satellite TV or computer for classes instead of a teacher. Find the new market when the old one fades-away

Agreed Pawnee.
If things more than 100 years old are not relevant anymore then Your constitution is irrelevant too.
Thats the trouble with people nowadays,they dont consider how relevant the historical record really is to what we are today and how things unfold in a predetermined way,to a certain extent,based on what went before.
History is a foundation on which everything else is built on.
You disavow the foundation you are on shaky ground to say the least.
That is why the anarchists who want to destroy the current paradigm attack the foundation first-wipe out the history-destroy the foundation and everything crumbles.

We have had so much change in our society the last 2-3 generations we don't even realize it. Our 9 month school year is totally based on a rural economy and population yet today with 2% of the nation as farmers. We vote in November for most elections as that allowed farmers and families to vote after the harvest was over. Just after WW11 our national corn yield average was 50-60 bushel, today it is almost 3 times that. The average dairy cow was milked in a stall barn, maybe by hand and milked 4,000 lbs. Today they average about 5-6 times that much. In 1927 the county I live in had roughly 50,000 cows with 127 active milk processing plants or factories. Today there are 55,000 cows and we have 3 places in the county that process dairy products. We had hotels and stables about every 15 miles to handle travelers and horses up until after WW1 here. Now that distance is about half the normal 30-40 minute commute for the average worker. When items are fashion statements instead of utilitarian in usage we should anticipate the the wide and wild swings. just look at the leather industry as well as fur.
If we indeed do see a huge swing to at home work that will change the garment industry tremendously over the next years and decades.

Bryce

Even with the ups and downs, how long is a person going to be supplying product til it goes back up to profitable?

I lose money every year but I admittedly don't trap for income. I do it for management and because I enjoy it. The checks I get offset expenses. Higher prices simply offset more expenses.

The world is changing. Things we think are good or important are hated by or just don't matter to a growing percentage of the human population.

Animal use of any sorts will be extinct within 100 years. Fur, meat ,etc. will be grown in a petri dish eliminating any use for the real deal.

Nuisance trapping will be the competition that creates the next fur boom.

Trapping will always be around. What pays may change.

How exactly?

True words from the man who makes the industry's best J-hook! Just bought another one from Jeb @ Okie Trap Supply while we were all at the KS get together. Showed a few trappers why they needed to get one also. Great device. Thanks Ron.

Good comments on the thread. Boco and Bryce have good food for thought especially.

Could it be that during the last 100 years our US economy (and lifestyle) has so far outpaced so much of the rest of the world. What we call a dollar, and spend 3 of them for a cup of coffee, much of the world calls a weekly wage. Many of the people in the world, save the elites in them as they're often called, earn dollars per week on par with our money. We want $20 coon. The average wage in Cuba is $33/month.

We've just outpaced the rest of the world in lifestyle and what we call a few bucks, they call a week's wages.
Fur as a fashion item needs the elites in Asia, Europe and the Middle East to bolster any hope for retail wild fur.
My thoughts at least.

Blessings,
Mark

Not sure about boom but market, yes. Maybe a good one.

I trap thousands of acres of land owned by neighbors around my farm. Some of those really frugal farmers would likely pay me to do it. Not a lot but I am not even sure what I would charge--which I won't so it's academic.

When you are paid to catch them processing becomes an option. If fur buyers want it, they will have to make it worth the trappers time to process it.

What you do has value. That increases with how well you do it.

And...when prices are down, go knock on doors. Can pick up a lot of land access when others throw in the towel...then work hard in down years to keep it all.
Just bought some new (used) traps this year. Got them for a song from someone getting out of it.
Almost felt bad paying what little I did for them, too. Almost.

Early 80s There was good money in fur.Every body and their brother went out and got traps to join in on the "EASY MONEY".Then,,when they found out all that easy money wasn't so easy after all,,I bought loads used once, or not used at all traps for pennies on the dollar.

I would guess that people will always exchange money for what they want done and don't or won't do themselves.
The future of trapping is tied to this principle and "trapping" will remain as long as ^^^^^^^ applies.
Can't speculate about the "fur" part.

Morning

Hobbie Trapper- Only when there is a fur market. A lot of ADC trapping is during the summer with worthless pelts.

Then why are things going the other way? Talk to any butcher and you will find out they have never been as busy as they have during this scamdemic. I just got through guiding a fellow from Alberta on a moose hunt. He has owned and operated a butcher shop in southern Alberta for decades. He said he has never been so busy and every butcher he knows is saying the same thing. They actually just changed the laws in Alberta so that ranchers can now sell directly to the public. They made that change because the demand was so great that the stores couldnt handle it. Panic buying?? Maybe, but the fact remains that the demand is there and growing.

Yup, try buying laying hens in Ontario this fall. Better get your name on a list if you want any in the spring. Imagine if there was an actual real catastrophic change in the world.

Really? Why in the world would you skin, flesh and board a $5 coon when they are a nuisance year around?

I’ve made more money catching groundhogs, guess how many of those I skinned.

The OP is asking about the fur market. ADC is a whole other ballgame.

"We’ve struggled with low fur prices for a long time, but over the past few years I’ve predicted the low prices would bottom and start to rebound around 2020. That prediction is based on the production cycle for ranch fur and the clearing of the overproduction of fur in the market. That is happening right now. After several years of rock bottom prices, mink ranchers around the world have pelted out and gone out of business over the past 2-3 years. Their excess production continues to work through the supply chain, and there won’t be nearly as many ranch mink entering the market until a couple of years after fur prices recover.

As a general rule, most wild fur follows ranch fur prices. That’s because if given a choice, buyers prefer the ranch product due to its large quantities of uniform goods. It just makes large scale production of most items much easier. When ranch fur gets expensive, it is often substituted with wild fur, and wild fur prices go up. So as the availability of ranch mink and fox dries up, and demand returns, we should begin to see increasing prices of wild mink, muskrat, beaver, otter, raccoon and fox. That’s a big ‘if’, but I think we’re headed in that direction.

The fur market also depends on demand from the major fur consuming countries, mainly Russia and China. Both countries’ economies are struggling, and the strength of the U.S. Dollar makes fur even more expensive for them to purchase. The lack of a solid trade deal with China has been a challenge as well. Most folks would look at these factors and think we’re in a worst case scenario for fur across the board. I look at them and see a bottom that the market should begin crawling out of over the next couple of years."

I really don't know what the fur trade prior to 1900's where there was little to no ranch fur, the fur was supplied mostly by natives, and sold in Europe, and there were few bunny huggers, and little mass production, has to do with the current situation?

I think we also have to realize that high or very good prices for very select grades or species does not make an industry as we have known it. 45 years ago 200 early and mid season central USA coons may have all sold at say $25 each. Getting $30 for the better 15 of those does not support an industry but does control the population some if you toss every 10th one away to get the better ones.

Bryce

2020-21 forecast and summary of FHA August auction

Then yes, it’s over, as in Fat Lady singing.

Industry is on it's last legs for sure, but as an end user the pricing for my inventory could not be better and someone always needs a little extra dollars or wants show show the kids how to handle pelts.

Sad this country is to backwards to something that was a great source of starting it so many years ago !!

A friend of mine sold his fur skun, but green to a local buyer.
He had one coyote he got $60 for. The rest of the coyotes went for a little over $10.
He had 2 buck mink he got $4 each for and one female he got $1 for. Needless to say, the stopped trapping mink.
His best coon was $12. Some they wouldn't even buy from him.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't skin a cold coyote for $10 and I have a skinning machine.

This is the problem, even if prices tripled I wouldn't get excited.

To really make it worth the time to take off work and trap or trap hard before/after work like I did as a teen I would need

Rats $20
Coons$40
Beaver$40
Coyotes$100

I do not see those prices coming down anytime soon. I think if most guys were honest to themselves on what it cost to trap they wouldn't go as hard. Traps, lure, stakes, vehicle depreciation, boots/waders etc.

I don't see the fur industry shuttering but I do see the wild fur industry having a rough go with possibly a couple exceptions for things like bobcat/lynx.

I see this all the time. People need to get a whole lot smarter as to what to skin and what to throw away. I see mangy coyotes, bad rubbed coons and beaver, blue sow coons that people put the time into skinning and sometimes put up, and take to their fur buyer or send to auction, that is not worth anything. I cannot count the times I've seen on here where someone proudly boasts that "if I caught it, I'm not gonna waste it"! What a load of crap, all it does is help clog up the system. Do you feel guilty (white guilt?) driving by all those dead critters laying along the road? Makes about as much sense as getting a putty knife and scrapping the remains off the hyway! The last thing the fur trade needs is more junk. Educate yourself as to what is good and throw the rest....it is a surplus that cannot be used. One of the guys that taught me the trade when I started buying years ago, told me, " you can sell good fur, it is the junk that will kill you". That still holds true today!

Great point Lee! Trap when it’s prime, and skin the good ‘uns! Buzzards gotta eat, same as the worms!

I love that old Clint E. movie.

Some good ideas there. Selling direct to consumers as a novelty. Most of the general public are not exposed to wild fur and bones. Finding a place to do it like you have is the key. If enough trappers did this , it would raise the price on fur to the point fur buyers would have to offer more to compete.

We are then obviously heading into the era of harvesting and sorting as to value and worth to time and effort. I have been on this forum for maybe over 20 years and have read thousands of threads regarding not using what one harvest as wasting nature or being unethical etc. etc. Do we need to teach the art of sorting out the good bad and ugly when we mentor new trappers? I also know by waiting two or even three weeks in the markets we have today may lower the number of pelts with no value but they sure are far, far from being a minority of the pelts. It seems many suggest that those landowners removing animals in the spring and summer are doing us all a favor by lowering the population that we are unwilling to harvest.

Bryce

Dumping every pelt on the international fur market has never been an option since I started trapping here 30 years ago. Not a new era. We sorted out the crap even during the fur boom. However, this is not the problem with the fur industry.

Obviously new trappers, need better mentors.

My good stuff isnt selling LOL.

My crystal ball is broken!!!!

Yes Bryce, sorting out the junk from the good end needs to be taught. That critter will prolly die before it's time, if not caught. The only way it gets used then is if you caught it. Dead is dead, and a large part of the population of furbearers will die one way or the other. Trapping ethics has to do with humanly trapping and treating other people well. It has nothing to do with whether you use that animal or not. I do not know of a state where wanton waste applies to furbearers. If there was, they would have to try and arrest everyone who runs over one on the road! lol. For me this year, I will skin my 4&5X coons, and only if they are pristine. If they wont make a select, in theditch they go, along with everything smaller. It's the least I can do to control the population and not load anymore on the fur market. Will try to just trap four species, coyotes,skunk,beaver and rats. That's it, but I'll be trapping and doing my part!

Well that brings up the real issue by who's definition is "good"? I sold 2xl 111 grade off color coon even 5 years ago for more than a 5xl 1 grade B color coon sells for today. It appears then that we need to teach or discuss markets while we teach new trappers how to trap if they are interested in any commercial aspect of the venture.

Bryce

Guys could cut down on a lot of the junk(not all) by trapping when fur is prime or just coming on to prime.
And using species specific sets to avoid some of the lesser valued species.
In some areas it is more work trapping later in the season,and for land fur it means less animals.

Trap Shed forum ought to be full of good deals, sounds like.

My wife can sell my traps when I'm dead!

I'm impressed....Probably one of the most profound things I've read in a while. Type it out and hang it on the wall. Good insight Boco

Personally, for myself, I could care less what the market looks like. When I have dreams about trapping, it's never been about the fur check. I dream of yellow eyes in headlights, or a big boar coon with its' hand in a tube. For me, its never been about money, and most of the time when I sell my fur to our local buyer, I just ask for store credit instead of a paycheck so its less of a financial strain on him. I guess I'm just grateful to be able to trap, and have many years ahead perfecting my craft. I tell my brother how lucky I am to love a hobby that has little to no competition, and that adds REAL VALUE to our local farmers and conservationists. I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to have other trappers all around me. As far as trying to figure out how to make it financially work, if you "rely" on the fur check to get you through the winters, I suggest working harder in the summer doing something different to save up. A common theme on this thread has been how all the profitability is out of trapping. IMO, this is correct, and it's not going to change. I'm just going to continue to embrace every season with nothing but gratitude and a positive attitude, and if the price of furs go back up in 30 years, I'll be able to make a (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) of a nice side income. Until then, Ill just keep doing it for free. It sure beats the heck out of sitting on a couch staring at TV.

I'll say it for you Dirt..... Enough of the touchy , feely crap....lol

Seems like a lot of people arent trapping this year. Are trapping supply places suffering?

Im not buying into the "junk" fur is killing the market. My best coon would be a lower grade Minnesota coon but premier to a Georgia coon or any species for that matter.

Good question, I placed an order with Ken at the trap store at FHA and they were having difficulty filling orders due to back orders from some suppliers. Not sure if that's an anomaly.

Fur industry is booming here.
Gotta make a delivery of tanned beaver to an out of town customer on Thursday.
Shipped a bunch of beaver to a new tannery a couple weeks ago.This guy does heavier leather(but nice and supple) than International Fur Dressers (I checked out his product a while back) but that is good,the heavy leather beaver are better for mitts,so its nice to have both the thin leather for hats etc and thicker leathered beaver on hand for custom orders.

And here I had to put my hip boots on for that post by Boco that you found so profound.

That wasn't what I said. I said it is plugging up the market. When you have thirty thousand II DMG coons in 1X size that you can't move, the auction house will throw them away, after all your work you put into them. That's the reality of this, or they may sell them for 25 or 50 cents. Because no one wants them, and it is very selective demand for the best. What I am trying to get across is don't put the time into the poor end, you will regret it. It will change one day, but for the time being, that's what needs to happen. And the rona go away, wishful thinking! lol

Just like any other industry-those who adapt to the new will thrive,those who dont will wither.
But there will always be a fur industry.

No idea. It could be. Covid has lot do with it. Temporary thing ? Long time improve. Just when things get slightly better, ranch fur cause bad fur market. Nafa close. Groenwold is doing pretty good in bad times. Lucky he still buying an surving

Tanned fur should still sell?

Hopefully the tanned fur still sells.

If the market does go the way some of you are saying it might, my friends and family will have lots of fur clothes and blankets

If the industry decentralizes then the smaller firms can and will be willing to handle smaller lots of fur and that may encourage more individuals over time to procure the pelts and develop markets and relationships with many different firms. I don't know how many pelts were sold or produced in the 30s to 70s when New York and Europe were the main production places but that may give us some idea of what a smaller but active market may look like or use. I would just guess that wild fur numbers would have been higher then the last couple decades and the ranch fur worldwide would have been lower. It would take some time and some hiccups to get that new old model back up to speed.

Bryce

Supply and demand and sub-par fur economy .
Until we hold ourselves to account selling because someone will take it off your hands for a couple bucks prices will not change until they have to raise the price,,, until someone will go catch them.
Sending in everything just will hurt you and us in the end .
Moderation,
Trapping will be demand for years to come just might not be selling fur in demand.
Beef steaks, lamb chops, chicken ,and eggs and bacon cost money.
And protecting them has a price also. Bartering, or cash, or lease for hunting and fishing. All have value imo.

OK, got it, I read ya wrong. But, as I said early on, my good stuff isnt getting much more if it sells at all. At least thats how my print out looks to me..Yes- many things need to happen for it to get straightened out.

I don't think you all understand. No shops of luxury items are open in Europe and Asia. Millions of garments that were made for last season are still there. The auction houses are full of unsold furs as well as every speculator and fur buyer has a stock pile.

Then you got people thinking they can still make it trapping. Its over for a while. Maybe a loong time. LLL

There are still plenty of people out there willing to pay to have nuisance animals removed. Sometimes you just gotta find another way.

Yet, as a number of people mentioned Groenwold is still moving (buying and selling) product at very low prices, and some are applauding his business model. While it is encouraging that some fur is still moving, it makes you wonder if this will be the final nail in the auction house and competative marketing of fur.

Maybe Groeney is just doing it for fun also, and isn't concerned about making money at it?

Fur will shine again. But who knows when. Maybe it'll be after the zombie apocalypse, at the rate things are going.

Imagine Groney makes a pretty good penny off wool and other things in addition to what wild fur he sells.