No Profanity *** No Flaming *** No Advertising *** No Anti Trappers ***NO POLITICS
No Non-Target Catches *** No Links to Anti-trapping Sites *** No Avoiding Profanity Filter


Home~Trap Talk~ADC Forum~Trap Shed~Wilderness Trapping~International Trappers~Fur Handling

Auction Forum~Trapper Tips~Links~Gallery~Basic Sets~Convention Calendar~Chat~ Trap Collecting Forum

Trapper's Humor~Strictly Trapping~Fur Buyers Directory~Mugshots~Fur Sale Directory~Wildcrafting~The Pen and Quill

Trapper's Tales~Words From The Past~Legends~Archives~Kids Forum~Lure Formulators Forum~ Fermenter's Forum


~~~ Dobbins' Products Catalog ~~~


Minnesota Trapline Products
Please support our sponsor for the Trappers Talk Page - Minnesota Trapline Products


Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Other faiths than Christianity #7030023
10/27/20 11:53 PM
10/27/20 11:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
J
James Offline OP
"Minka"
James  Offline OP
"Minka"
J

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
I thought it might be interesting to talk about what we know about other faiths than Christianity. I'll open with a discussion of what I know and think about Shintoism, the native religion of Japan. I think Shintoism is a con job much like Scientology, but much older.

A good friend of ours in Tokyo had her husband die not too long ago. He was a devoted Shintoist. Before his death she used to complain to us bitterly about how her husband spent all his free time and a lot of their money on the church. She was raising two boys all by herself.

Shintoism is a polytheistic religion; Shintoists believe in a god of the forest, a god of the river, and so on. Everything has a god attached to it. God of the peanut shell, I guess.

Shintoism offers no afterlife for believers. Everything ends for you when you die--maybe one of the reasons Shintoism hasn't thrived in modern competition among religions. In terms of survival of the fit, Shinto has not done well. The number of believers has been in steady decline since the end of WW II.

Shintoists believe that if you shower the gods, or kami, with worship and gifts (especially money for the monks), kami will in turn shower you with long life, health, and prosperity.

Our friend's husband, as I said, was a true believer. Our friend herself was and is a non-believer. He showered kami with devotion and money. To the point that he was never a father for their two sons. You could say he was obsessed.

A few years ago he died of a rare form of cancer, at the age of 58. Our friend is convinced Shintoism conned her husband. The kami had reneged. Her mother-in-law continues to insist there must have been some flaw the kami found in her son's devotion. So she would worship harder.

Instead of coming to the conclusion there were no kami and that she had been wasting her time and money all those years, she finds a rationalization for redoubling her belief.

I've noticed that religion tends to inoculate itself against intellectual challenges by rationalizing away those challenges. Christianity is not exempt or alone in this characteristic--and probably is not the worst.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030028
10/28/20 12:04 AM
10/28/20 12:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 297
ny
S
Starcraft_Dart Offline
trapper
Starcraft_Dart  Offline
trapper
S

Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 297
ny
Very true James.

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030035
10/28/20 12:15 AM
10/28/20 12:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,153
Alaska and Washington State
W
waggler Offline
trapper
waggler  Offline
trapper
W

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,153
Alaska and Washington State
I'm not trying to make this a debate that Christanity is the one true faith (although I believe that), but is there any other faith system where the emphasis is about God reaching out to man?
Every other belief system seems to revolve around man's attempt to reach or applease God.


"My life is better than your vacation"
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030036
10/28/20 12:17 AM
10/28/20 12:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,525
MN
D
Donnersurvivor Offline
trapper
Donnersurvivor  Offline
trapper
D

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,525
MN
I'll describe what I subscribe to.

Agnosticism- doesn't know if there is a God or not. Do not know if any religion is correct or not. Basically don't even pretend to know.

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030042
10/28/20 12:46 AM
10/28/20 12:46 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 15,520
Champaign County, Ohio.
K
KeithC Offline
trapper
KeithC  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 15,520
Champaign County, Ohio.
I sell to a lot of people who follow Santos and Santaria. Both related religions seem very unbelievable to me, but the people that I sell to, who follow them seem otherwise very rational. All of the people I have dealt with who practice them are successful, to very successful, if you count happiness and great wealth as signs of success.

I know more about Santos than Santaria, from talking to one very frequent customer, who has become a friend of mine. In Santos they basically combine a Catholic saint with an African deity. You have a main helper you pray to, who intercedes for you and others for specific problems.

Sacrifice of live animals is a great part of Santos and Santaria. The most common animal used is a rooster, whose sacrifice allows you to get an answer to a yes/no question. In Santos you take a coconut and split it into 4 equal parts. You take a rooster, twist off it's head with your right hand and hold the blood in with your left hand, while holding it high above you. You pray to your helper and ask your yes/no question. You then throw the 4 pieces of coconut, so that they roll on the ground. The best positive answer is 2 white sides up and 2 brown sides up because it's balanced. 4 white sides is a yes. 3 white sides is a yes. 3 browns is a no. 4 browns is a hard, bad no. If you get 4 browns, you will have misfortune until the spirit completely leaves the rooster. The way you know when the spirit has left the dead rooster, is by laying it out in the woods, in a pristine spot, to decompose. Once it stops smelling, the spirit is supposed to be gone.

The other, more popular option, if you get a hard no answer, is to talk to basically a witch doctor, who tells you what you need to sacrifice to fix the problem. Once you know, you go see your friendly voodoo pharmacist, me and buy what you need to fix your problem.

Baby chicks are used for rejuvenation. Guineas are used for strength. Pigeons are used for far seeing and are also used for cleaning bad energy out of a house. I don't know what quail are used for, but their use is common. Hens are used to feed your spiritual helper. Goats are used to feed your spiritual helper on their feast day.

My Santos customers are all African Americans. My Santaria customers are mostly Cubans and Hondurans.

I also sell to a lot of Africans, mostly Ghanans. They have to eat certain animals of certain colors, while sacrificing part of the animal to their specific sort of deity, several times a year. Most follow the same deity and typically they need red roosters in the Spring, white roosters in the Summer and black roosters in the early Fall. There's one day in the Spring they need all 3 colors of roosters. They use white and colored pigeons on different days too. The African men don't believe they can perform sexually if they can't get the right color rooster, when it's needed.

I sell to a lot of Muslims who release pigeons to cure their wives' postpartum depression. They release one black, one blue and one white pigeon.

During the 28 days of Ramadan, Arabic Muslims eat lamb and chicken every night after sunset. African Muslims eat goat and guinea everynight after sunset. Guineas bring huge money here during Ramadan.

Keith

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030046
10/28/20 12:58 AM
10/28/20 12:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,323
se South Dakota
NonPCfed Offline
trapper
NonPCfed  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,323
se South Dakota
I remember watching a movie, Jimmy Smits was in it, about Santaria. Spooky stuff, no thank you, I'll stick with Jesus!!

James- I thought Shintoism also got into ancestor worship? That's one reason why the Japanese wouldn't surrender in WII, they would dishonor their ancestors who were watching them...


"And God said, Let us make man in our image �and let them have dominion �and all the creatures that move along the ground".
Genesis 1:26
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030051
10/28/20 01:29 AM
10/28/20 01:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
J
James Offline OP
"Minka"
James  Offline OP
"Minka"
J

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,379
Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
Shintoism does involve ancestor worship, though I don't know how or to what degree.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030052
10/28/20 01:29 AM
10/28/20 01:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,153
Alaska and Washington State
W
waggler Offline
trapper
waggler  Offline
trapper
W

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,153
Alaska and Washington State
KeithC

You said;
"I sell to a lot of Muslims who release pigeons to cure their wives' postpartum depression. They release one black, one blue and one white pigeon."
So are these homing pigeons? If so, do your customers know they return to you. If so, I guess you are just renting the pigeons.
If they aren't homing pigeons, why not?

That Santos or whatever sounds like a pretty complicated deal.


"My life is better than your vacation"
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030061
10/28/20 03:08 AM
10/28/20 03:08 AM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,500
Kenai AK
K
KenaiKid Offline
trapper
KenaiKid  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,500
Kenai AK
The most widespread and pervasive religion in Western society is the one that's not called a religion. It's the one James subscribes to, as he confessed in his post. That is: Greek Philosophy and its fruit, rationalism.

"I've noticed that religion tends to inoculate itself against intellectual challenges by rationalizing away those challenges."

The premise is that rationalism trumps spiritualism, that spiritual matters must be subjected to and approved by the intellect. Of course, this in turn requires belief that the human brain is, essentially, god- the definer and gateway of truth.

None of this is new, of course, nor is it as organic as one might think. It was the Greek philosophers, Plato, Aristotle and Socrates, who introduced the idea, and it spread through the Roman Empire and became a pillar of European culture and worldview. It's worth noting that the philosophers didn't reject spirituality, they just segregated it. Dualism is a key tenet in Greek teaching: they viewed the physical, intellectual and spiritual as separate and opposed forces in a human, and required that one "be in charge." There were many debates about whether a man should be first spiritual or intellectual, but the intellect won out. Therefore the greatest virtue and identifier for Greek man was HIS THOUGHTS.
"Cogito, ergo sums -- I think, therefor I am". The Greeks invented the academic class and higher education because they determined that intellect was highest part of a man, and therefore the most worth investing in. The Greeks invented occupations such as Philosopher, Scientist, and Professor so they could abstain from the physical and spiritual and invest wholly in the intellectual.

Now this is not to say that rationalists must be atheists- many of the Greeks had spiritual beliefs, and many do today. But their spiritualism can only go so far as their intellect allows. It's a matter of which is the "higher power."

Like I said, this philosophy is the strongest single influence in Western culture, including our religions. Christianity especially was strongly tainted with Greek influence due to to Roman Empire, and that influence persists today.


Originally Posted by Dirt
Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
Boco couldn't catch a cold.

But if he did, it would be Top Lot.
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030094
10/28/20 06:09 AM
10/28/20 06:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
I have never been to Greece. I have noticed that by far MOST religious people believe in the religion taught them by their parents from birth. A three year old has no trouble accepting wild stories as true. Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are popular figures in a day care.

Quote

I've noticed that religion tends to inoculate itself against intellectual challenges by rationalizing away those challenges.


that statement pretty well sums up how I see religion


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030113
10/28/20 06:45 AM
10/28/20 06:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,213
NE
M
Marty B Online content
"arbitrary noob"
Marty B  Online Content
"arbitrary noob"
M

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,213
NE
Has there ever been a rational discussion of religion, or politics?



Has there ever been a more fertile habitat for scammers than in religion, and politics?

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: Marty B] #7030117
10/28/20 06:48 AM
10/28/20 06:48 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,364
east central WI
K
k snow Online content
trapper
k snow  Online Content
trapper
K

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,364
east central WI
Originally Posted by Marty B
Has there ever been a rational discussion of religion, or politics?



Has there ever been a more fertile habitat for scammers than in religion, and politics?




I have had many rational discussion about religion. The biggest factor is that the people having the discussion must be willing to accept other people's beliefs for what they are, their beliefs. You cannot have a rational discussion if one or more people are convinced they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030121
10/28/20 06:56 AM
10/28/20 06:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
You can not discuss any religion rationally with a believer. There are no religions based on rational thought. None I am aware of anyway.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030127
10/28/20 07:02 AM
10/28/20 07:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 5,570
Dunbar, Wisconsin
P
Pike River Offline
trapper
Pike River  Offline
trapper
P

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 5,570
Dunbar, Wisconsin
Originally Posted by James
Shintoism does involve ancestor worship, though I don't know how or to what degree.

Jim

From what I know of Shinto is that involves a lot of ancestor worship.

Regarding your friend's husband, they guy seemed to have the obsessive - addictive personality. If it wasn't Shinto it could've been anything else, trapping or booze or drugs.

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #7030133
10/28/20 07:10 AM
10/28/20 07:10 AM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,057
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Yes sir  Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,057
Marion Kansas
Originally Posted by danny clifton
You can not discuss any religion rationally with a believer. There are no religions based on rational thought. None I am aware of anyway.

Thats because your bases for rational thought is no god could have any intelligence or power above those possessed by man. Which sure narrows the possibilities. Seems if there is a God it would be rational they would have traits greater than mankind.

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030136
10/28/20 07:17 AM
10/28/20 07:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,030
Coldspring Texas
Savell Offline
"Wilbur"
Savell  Offline
"Wilbur"

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,030
Coldspring Texas
..., you need to call ICE Kieth lol


Insert profound nonsense here
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030140
10/28/20 07:18 AM
10/28/20 07:18 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
Quote
Seems if there is a God it would be rational they would have traits greater than mankind.


I can believe that.

Quote
In Hinduism the universe is millions of years old. In line with the Hindu belief in reincarnation, the universe we live in is not the first or indeed the last universe.

For Hindus the universe was created by Brahma, the creator who made the universe out of himself.

After Brahma created the world, it is the power of Vishnu which preserves the world and human beings.

As part of the cycle of birth, life and death it is Shiva who will ultimately destroy the universe. This is not necessarily as bad as it might sound because it allows Brahma to start the process of creation all over again


It is this kind of stuff I can find no rationality in. No evidence of truth. A wild tale taught to children so they grow up believers. a tale whose purpose is to console people about their own mortality and possibly their hard life.

Last edited by danny clifton; 10/28/20 07:20 AM.

Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: KeithC] #7030145
10/28/20 07:30 AM
10/28/20 07:30 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by KeithC
I sell to a lot of people who follow Santos and Santaria. Both related religions seem very unbelievable to me, but the people that I sell to, who follow them seem otherwise very rational. All of the people I have dealt with who practice them are successful, to very successful, if you count happiness and great wealth as signs of success.

I know more about Santos than Santaria, from talking to one very frequent customer, who has become a friend of mine. In Santos they basically combine a Catholic saint with an African deity. You have a main helper you pray to, who intercedes for you and others for specific problems.

Sacrifice of live animals is a great part of Santos and Santaria. The most common animal used is a rooster, whose sacrifice allows you to get an answer to a yes/no question. In Santos you take a coconut and split it into 4 equal parts. You take a rooster, twist off it's head with your right hand and hold the blood in with your left hand, while holding it high above you. You pray to your helper and ask your yes/no question. You then throw the 4 pieces of coconut, so that they roll on the ground. The best positive answer is 2 white sides up and 2 brown sides up because it's balanced. 4 white sides is a yes. 3 white sides is a yes. 3 browns is a no. 4 browns is a hard, bad no. If you get 4 browns, you will have misfortune until the spirit completely leaves the rooster. The way you know when the spirit has left the dead rooster, is by laying it out in the woods, in a pristine spot, to decompose. Once it stops smelling, the spirit is supposed to be gone.

The other, more popular option, if you get a hard no answer, is to talk to basically a witch doctor, who tells you what you need to sacrifice to fix the problem. Once you know, you go see your friendly voodoo pharmacist, me and buy what you need to fix your problem.

Baby chicks are used for rejuvenation. Guineas are used for strength. Pigeons are used for far seeing and are also used for cleaning bad energy out of a house. I don't know what quail are used for, but their use is common. Hens are used to feed your spiritual helper. Goats are used to feed your spiritual helper on their feast day.

My Santos customers are all African Americans. My Santaria customers are mostly Cubans and Hondurans.

I also sell to a lot of Africans, mostly Ghanans. They have to eat certain animals of certain colors, while sacrificing part of the animal to their specific sort of deity, several times a year. Most follow the same deity and typically they need red roosters in the Spring, white roosters in the Summer and black roosters in the early Fall. There's one day in the Spring they need all 3 colors of roosters. They use white and colored pigeons on different days too. The African men don't believe they can perform sexually if they can't get the right color rooster, when it's needed.

I sell to a lot of Muslims who release pigeons to cure their wives' postpartum depression. They release one black, one blue and one white pigeon.

During the 28 days of Ramadan, Arabic Muslims eat lamb and chicken every night after sunset. African Muslims eat goat and guinea everynight after sunset. Guineas bring huge money here during Ramadan.

Keith


Interesting. I'll ask my running buddy here in Dallas, who is from W. New Guinea about this religion. 'Djaba will probably smile when I ask him.

Blessings,
Mark

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030147
10/28/20 07:34 AM
10/28/20 07:34 AM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,057
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Yes sir  Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,057
Marion Kansas
Ive got into watching some debates on YouTube between some of the great minds in there fields. Rational thought is not always simple ive learned, it can take it much deeper than us common people do BUT if its rational it does make sense when they explain it.

I do get your point Danny. Thanks for making it clearer for me

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #7030152
10/28/20 07:37 AM
10/28/20 07:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,194
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
trapper
Posco  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,194
Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted by danny clifton
You can not discuss any religion rationally with a believer. There are no religions based on rational thought. None I am aware of anyway.


I'm sixty years old and I've been a believer for roughly half my life, I'm well equipped to speak from either side of the fence. There's no question in my mind God is real and makes himself known to people. You can't provoke God to reveal himself to you but he can provoke you to seek him out if that's his desire. Whether that's done or not is entirely in God's hands.

Last edited by Posco; 10/28/20 07:43 AM.
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread