No Profanity *** No Flaming *** No Advertising *** No Anti Trappers ***NO POLITICS
No Non-Target Catches *** No Links to Anti-trapping Sites *** No Avoiding Profanity Filter


Home~Trap Talk~ADC Forum~Trap Shed~Wilderness Trapping~International Trappers~Fur Handling

Auction Forum~Trapper Tips~Links~Gallery~Basic Sets~Convention Calendar~Chat~ Trap Collecting Forum

Trapper's Humor~Strictly Trapping~Fur Buyers Directory~Mugshots~Fur Sale Directory~Wildcrafting~The Pen and Quill

Trapper's Tales~Words From The Past~Legends~Archives~Kids Forum~Lure Formulators Forum~ Fermenter's Forum


~~~ Dobbins' Products Catalog ~~~


Minnesota Trapline Products
Please support our sponsor for the Trappers Talk Page - Minnesota Trapline Products


Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030163
10/28/20 07:49 AM
10/28/20 07:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
Posco there are Billions of people who will agree with you. Most of them are talking about a different belief system than you.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: KenaiKid] #7030164
10/28/20 07:51 AM
10/28/20 07:51 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by KenaiKid
The most widespread and pervasive religion in Western society is the one that's not called a religion. It's the one James subscribes to, as he confessed in his post. That is: Greek Philosophy and its fruit, rationalism.

"I've noticed that religion tends to inoculate itself against intellectual challenges by rationalizing away those challenges."

The premise is that rationalism trumps spiritualism, that spiritual matters must be subjected to and approved by the intellect. Of course, this in turn requires belief that the human brain is, essentially, god- the definer and gateway of truth.

None of this is new, of course, nor is it as organic as one might think. It was the Greek philosophers, Plato, Aristotle and Socrates, who introduced the idea, and it spread through the Roman Empire and became a pillar of European culture and worldview. It's worth noting that the philosophers didn't reject spirituality, they just segregated it. Dualism is a key tenet in Greek teaching: they viewed the physical, intellectual and spiritual as separate and opposed forces in a human, and required that one "be in charge." There were many debates about whether a man should be first spiritual or intellectual, but the intellect won out. Therefore the greatest virtue and identifier for Greek man was HIS THOUGHTS.
"Cogito, ergo sums -- I think, therefor I am". The Greeks invented the academic class and higher education because they determined that intellect was highest part of a man, and therefore the most worth investing in. The Greeks invented occupations such as Philosopher, Scientist, and Professor so they could abstain from the physical and spiritual and invest wholly in the intellectual.

Now this is not to say that rationalists must be atheists- many of the Greeks had spiritual beliefs, and many do today. But their spiritualism can only go so far as their intellect allows. It's a matter of which is the "higher power."

Like I said, this philosophy is the strongest single influence in Western culture, including our religions. Christianity especially was strongly tainted with Greek influence due to to Roman Empire, and that influence persists today.


May your tribe increase KK.

We are a culture of philosophy. We can't help ourselves. It is all we know well. Logic and logical thinking.
Only when the philosopher withers within us do we declare, I'm outta here.

Our country struggles while we watch "logic" as the dividing "philosophy" compete for the minds of the masses.

Religion is not a mind decision and that seems crazy dumb, superstitious heretical to our head.

But there is an example even the Greeks could not categorize with accuracy and it bothered the greatest thinkers
Love. A seemingly spiritual concept.
The Greek language has 7 categories of love and still they could not explain it with accuracy with 100,000's in the stands during great coliseum debates. Love it seems, evades even the Platos and Aristotles of this world. These were men, called the "brightest" in contrast to the "light" of the world. They were smarter than any God and "Brighter."
We still talk like those Greeks today, don't we?
yet, how is it that a "concept" so indwelled in us (love) has had centuries of the brightest thinkers to explain it... still it is beyond our explanation reach?
"You know it when you see it," is the wisdom of 3,000 years.

Could it be, as some believe, there's more to this world than we can know?
Maybe that's the plan. See who holds on with all their intellect with their minds and who allows affections, as Jonathan Edwards explained, to view their surroundings and lay down their head for their heart as the Greeks picture it?

Being "smart" has nothing to do with any of it.
Plenty of bright people in any philosophy or theology.
Superstition has no place either in orthodox theology.
All is well "thought" out.

Great post KK. Thank you. Gotta love you AK folk!
Blessings,
Mark

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030187
10/28/20 08:30 AM
10/28/20 08:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 2,092
NB, Canada
MySide 🦝 Offline
trapper
MySide 🦝  Offline
trapper

Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 2,092
NB, Canada
Classic James. grin


All for the Greater Glory of God
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030190
10/28/20 08:35 AM
10/28/20 08:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,374
Green County Wisconsin
G
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper
GREENCOUNTYPETE  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,374
Green County Wisconsin
everybody needs a hobby , for some people that is religion.

some people have addictions , for some people that is religion.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030217
10/28/20 09:23 AM
10/28/20 09:23 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62,658
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline

trapper
330-Trapper  Offline

trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62,658
Minnesota
God doesn't seek your Analytical mind.

But does seek your Heart. He created in US, free will.


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #7030226
10/28/20 09:36 AM
10/28/20 09:36 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,482
PA
P
PAskinner Offline
trapper
PAskinner  Offline
trapper
P

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,482
PA
Originally Posted by danny clifton
You can not discuss any religion rationally with a believer. There are no religions based on rational thought. None I am aware of anyway.

Oh boy. Where does rational thought come from? How do you know which thoughts are rational? Could it be that your whole rational thought worship is based on what western society has taught you?


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #7030228
10/28/20 09:37 AM
10/28/20 09:37 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,482
PA
P
PAskinner Offline
trapper
PAskinner  Offline
trapper
P

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,482
PA
Originally Posted by GREENCOUNTYPETE
everybody needs a hobby , for some people that is religion.

some people have addictions , for some people that is religion.


True and false. We all follow the paths that lead us to drugs or Jesus as the song says. But while religion may be just a hobby, a relationship with one's Savior is everything.


Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030238
10/28/20 09:46 AM
10/28/20 09:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
Many very ancient belief system's hold that the creator is feminine. Gaia has re-emerged as a figure of worship for example. There are figurines in Europe of a seated fat woman with large breasts that are thought to be representations of this earth mother.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #7030251
10/28/20 09:59 AM
10/28/20 09:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,153
Alaska and Washington State
W
waggler Offline
trapper
waggler  Offline
trapper
W

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,153
Alaska and Washington State
Originally Posted by danny clifton
You can not discuss any religion rationally with a believer. There are no religions based on rational thought. None I am aware of anyway.

Danny, you need to get out more. I have had plenty of rational discussions with people who don't believe the same as I do. And regarding your second point, the first century Christians we're very rational in their beliefs, since they were based on first or second hand experiences. With many of them willing to die not for some fairytale, but for something that they had actually witnessed and experienced.
Not to say that many people have not also died for irrational ideas.


"My life is better than your vacation"
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #7030457
10/28/20 03:12 PM
10/28/20 03:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,586
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
T
Trapper7 Offline
trapper
Trapper7  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,586
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
Originally Posted by danny clifton
You can not discuss any religion rationally with a believer. There are no religions based on rational thought. None I am aware of anyway.

You can turn that statement around. You can not discuss any religion rationally with a non-believer either.


I don't care how nice the hand soap smells, you should never walk out of the restroom sniffing your fingers.
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030462
10/28/20 03:27 PM
10/28/20 03:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
There is nothing rational about claiming a person can become "enlightened" by meditating under a banyan tree for example. People just choose to believe in spite of everything they know. Usually because it was taught to them as children by people who told them not believing would cause them problems. Like I said earlier, children believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy.

When children are taught the universe was created by Brahma, the creator who made the universe out of himself. After Brahma created the world, it is the power of Vishnu which preserves the world and human beings. As part of the cycle of birth, life and death it is Shiva who will ultimately destroy the universe. When it is believed and taught by all the adults they have contact with, those children believe it as adults in spite of what their rational minds tell them.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030463
10/28/20 03:30 PM
10/28/20 03:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,586
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
T
Trapper7 Offline
trapper
Trapper7  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,586
MN, Land of 10,000 Lakes
Most of Jesus' followers died a martyr's death for what they had experienced while they were with Him. Hard to believe they were all irrational. He had to have done something that convinced them of something that they were willing to die for.

Some say Jesus never even existed. Yet, the Jewish historian, Josephus wrote about Jesus's existence. He, himself was not a follower of Jesus, but reported rumors of miracles some claimed to have seen. He mentions Jesus twice in his writings.


I don't care how nice the hand soap smells, you should never walk out of the restroom sniffing your fingers.
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030464
10/28/20 03:35 PM
10/28/20 03:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,194
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
trapper
Posco  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,194
Maine, Aroostook
I honestly think people aren't near so skeptical of Christianity as they are in their earnest efforts to escape the claims it makes on them. As though their argument is so compelling, even God will have to pardon them, should he in fact exist.

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030547
10/28/20 05:42 PM
10/28/20 05:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,399
wisconsin
cowboy2005 Offline
trapper
cowboy2005  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,399
wisconsin
I've not taken the time to read this thread but the little bit I glanced over it seems as tho Christianity is yet again being challenged. And I dont mean to get too involved in a conversation I'm not really going to take the time to be apart of but I will say this, if i die and find out that there is infact no God, Im a lot better off then if i live as tho there isn't and find out there is. I've heard it said also that "I know God exists because I met the devil." I think alot of us have whether we accept it or not. The difference is who was swayed by him and who wasn't, and i think we can all agree that there is a devil because the world seems to worship him (i.e Halloween) so if there's a devil then there's a God. Because if not we are all screwed.





Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030612
10/28/20 06:21 PM
10/28/20 06:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
This thread is not about christianity. If your not going to read it then why comment??????????


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030618
10/28/20 06:28 PM
10/28/20 06:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
I never could figure out how Manson convinced people he was a deity. I suppose copious amounts of LSD helped. Still every few years another cult starts. jonestown and stargate come to mind off the top of my head.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #7030631
10/28/20 06:42 PM
10/28/20 06:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,399
wisconsin
cowboy2005 Offline
trapper
cowboy2005  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,399
wisconsin
Originally Posted by danny clifton
This thread is not about christianity. If your not going to read it then why comment??????????

Because why not? And Christianity is certainly present in this thread.





Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030656
10/28/20 07:02 PM
10/28/20 07:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,472
Northern Ohio ...
S
Sullivan K Offline
"Keith"
Sullivan K  Offline
"Keith"
S

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,472
Northern Ohio ...
My religion revolves around whiskey, tobacco, masturbation, and squirrel hunting. My God, and I, get along pretty good.


My name ain't Keith
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030657
10/28/20 07:02 PM
10/28/20 07:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,963
Central Ontario, Canada
C
Crit-R-Dun Offline
trapper
Crit-R-Dun  Offline
trapper
C

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,963
Central Ontario, Canada
Thumper magnet.

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #7030678
10/28/20 07:16 PM
10/28/20 07:16 PM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by danny clifton
I never could figure out how Manson convinced people he was a deity. I suppose copious amounts of LSD helped. Still every few years another cult starts. jonestown and stargate come to mind off the top of my head.


You always use the outlying as if it were the normative.
Contrarian arguments too. Interesting. You argue for what is by arguing what is not but most modern day philosophers have moved away from contrarianism because once thought to be accurate and "true", it's been researched and discovered that many beliefs claimed by people are simply a psychological "mask" of sorts.

True, sects and cults you mention would be considered faiths other than Christianity, but you use too broad a brush to paint some faiths.
If I move to a Kansas WIHA tomorrow, and I marry myself and my dog, would I be a Kansas resident? Am I legally married in Kansas? Are there laws or commonly held beliefs, or doctrine regarding such things? Sure. Forged in time and culture and religious heritage.

It's easier to discuss (apologetics) when the core orthodox principles are offered.
No, I'm not a Kansan in this scenario, says the state residency laws.
No, I'm not married says the state and religious law.

So no need throwing out scenarios that have no relation to the orthodox.
They're just aberrants.

Blessings,
Mark

Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread