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Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030739
10/28/20 07:55 PM
10/28/20 07:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,399
wisconsin
cowboy2005 Offline
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Danny Clifton, It seems as tho all religions share things in common with Christianity. Almost as if it were the base of all others?
It has become apparent to me that many many farmers in the US believe in God. Not all but alot, as a farmer myself I can tell u danny that it is probably because when u work outside 365 days a year you start to realize that there is no way there isn't a God. Everything is too carefully thought out and designed. I could give you hundreds of examples if you like. Take the cow for instance, she has 4 stomachs and complex digestive system, that if it had to evolve without the help of God, to become what it is, the cow probably would be gone by now. You said that no Christian could give you a rational argument, I challenge that. I'm a Christian but I do struggle with my faith ALOT its only natural but when I look at nature I realize that there has to be a God. There has to be someone out there who's helped me thru all the tough times I've been thru. One could argue that it's not the God I believe in. But I know there is a God. It takes faith to believe i can't explain everything so that no faith is needed but with God's help I can give you a rational argument.
So danny, if your man enough to except my challenge explain the cow to me, explain the universe, the earth
for Pete's sake explain the human but do it without the use Of a god or it just happening. I'm all ears.
-Garrett

Last edited by cowboy2005; 10/28/20 08:00 PM.




Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030749
10/28/20 08:03 PM
10/28/20 08:03 PM
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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Mark, most of the time I have no idea what point your trying to make. I am trying to make the point that even when someone says they are all going to fly up to a spaceship, where no one has a gender, so castrate yourself and take poison, some people will go along. I can not imagine any way possible they could believe that tripe, but they want it to be true so fiercely they become believers.

It is the same strategy con men employ. They find people so greedy, or so desperate for love, they wont listen to reason no matter how obvious the truth is.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #7030752
10/28/20 08:05 PM
10/28/20 08:05 PM
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MN
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Donnersurvivor Offline
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Originally Posted by danny clifton


It is the same strategy con men employ. They find people so greedy, or so desperate for love, they wont listen to reason no matter how obvious the truth is.


What an excellent quote.

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: Donnersurvivor] #7030769
10/28/20 08:16 PM
10/28/20 08:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,399
wisconsin
cowboy2005 Offline
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Originally Posted by Donnersurvivor
[quote=danny clifton]

It is the same strategy con men employ. They find people so greedy, or so desperate for love, they wont listen to reason no matter how obvious the truth is.


Your saying that, Christianity and all other religions are scams. And while I'd agree (Christianity excluded) Id also argue that evolution and all science based views are scams too. Im saying that, while people take advantage of Christianity, the religion as a whole isn't a con. You're dismissing all religions as cons but offering no alternative? What gives? I thought you were the all knowing guru? Nope, your a con man as well. Congratulations your point has been proven, as has mine. I took advantage of your views in order to taught you. Agian, just because Christianity is taken advantage of doesn't make it a con.





Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7030870
10/28/20 09:12 PM
10/28/20 09:12 PM
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Davisfur Offline
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What if Jesus was just another Jim Jones or Manson? If Jim Jones had told 12 of his closest followers to write a book about his life after he died that would prove to the world that he was the son of God, how many fictitious miracles would they have said he did to convince people? Not saying that Jesus never existed because I believe he did as was mentioned above there were numerous other places in history that gave mention to him, but also not saying he was who he claimed to be. And on that same note if he was the son of God that gave his life to save us all was it really as big of a sacrifice as everybody wants you to think? My point being that Jesus knew that he would only be dead 3 days and then be brought back to life and get to go back to heaven to live the good life with his dad. Was that really much of a sacrifice? Seems to me there have been an untold number of people in this world that have gladly laid down thier lives to save the world without knowing they would be brought back in 3 days and really never knowing what was going to happen to them when the lights went out. To me that takes more sacrifice than knowing you would be brought back and live the good life.

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #7030893
10/28/20 09:30 PM
10/28/20 09:30 PM
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white marlin Offline
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
It is the same strategy con men employ. They find people so greedy, or so desperate for love, they wont listen to reason no matter how obvious the truth is.


but what is Truth?

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: Davisfur] #7030905
10/28/20 09:53 PM
10/28/20 09:53 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,399
wisconsin
cowboy2005 Offline
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Originally Posted by Davisfur
What if Jesus was just another Jim Jones or Manson? If Jim Jones had told 12 of his closest followers to write a book about his life after he died that would prove to the world that he was the son of God, how many fictitious miracles would they have said he did to convince people? Not saying that Jesus never existed because I believe he did as was mentioned above there were numerous other places in history that gave mention to him, but also not saying he was who he claimed to be. And on that same note if he was the son of God that gave his life to save us all was it really as big of a sacrifice as everybody wants you to think? My point being that Jesus knew that he would only be dead 3 days and then be brought back to life and get to go back to heaven to live the good life with his dad. Was that really much of a sacrifice? Seems to me there have been an untold number of people in this world that have gladly laid down thier lives to save the world without knowing they would be brought back in 3 days and really never knowing what was going to happen to them when the lights went out. To me that takes more sacrifice than knowing you would be brought back and live the good life.

See the alot of Jews held the same belief, they even called him the prince of demons. One very convincing reason that Jesus isn't another jim Jones is what Jesus taught. He taught us to love one another, Jesus was love. He healed the sick, and promised enteral life to those who followed him (wait didn't jim Jones promise the same? Yes, but Jesus never made anyone drink cool aid.) If you read the Bible you see that Jesus showed love to everyone. But he still could have been a jim right? Well, let's say for a moment that he is, what would he possibly gain? He gained no money no power nothing he gained nothing. So why preach love to everyone if your jim jones? And as far as his sacrifice being pathetic, imagine for a minute that he really was the son of God. He was slain for the sins of man, when he was perfect absolutely perfect. The death of the son of God was so horrendous that God hid his face. Nowhere else in the bible did God look away like that, not when people were having sex with animals in Sodom and gamora not when Jesus's disciples died. Only when Jesus died, its hard to imagine just how big of a sacrifice this was because we aren't gods. But also it showed people he really was the son of God because he beat death.





Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #7030993
10/28/20 11:18 PM
10/28/20 11:18 PM
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Alaska and Washington State
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waggler Offline
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
Mark, most of the time I have no idea what point your trying to make. I am trying to make the point that even when someone says they are all going to fly up to a spaceship, where no one has a gender, so castrate yourself and take poison, some people will go along. I can not imagine any way possible they could believe that tripe, but they want it to be true so fiercely they become believers.

It is the same strategy con men employ. They find people so greedy, or so desperate for love, they wont listen to reason no matter how obvious the truth is.

Danny, The encouragement to reason is one difference that sets Christianity (Judaism) apart from most other belief systems.
Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool."


"My life is better than your vacation"
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #7030995
10/28/20 11:22 PM
10/28/20 11:22 PM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
Mark, most of the time I have no idea what point your trying to make. I am trying to make the point that even when someone says they are all going to fly up to a spaceship, where no one has a gender, so castrate yourself and take poison, some people will go along. I can not imagine any way possible they could believe that tripe, but they want it to be true so fiercely they become believers.

It is the same strategy con men employ. They find people so greedy, or so desperate for love, they wont listen to reason no matter how obvious the truth is.


And when you give examples it's the aberrants, the weird stuff. You tend to use negative (contrarian) examples.
Jonestown and spaceships as examples of religion?
You're our logic, empiric, humanist, reductionist, science guy by your own words.
I'm justing wondering why you see the world through the prism of weird negatives?

There are blessings all around us.
Our spouses, children, pets, work, hobbies, even language and communication, creation & God are all blessings beyond description if we stop in the present long enough (in our fast paced world) to gaze at all of it.

No religious debate serves to bring someone to the Christian faith so... no agenda here... other than set a few things back on the tracks.
As you and I chatted about in Kansas, it's all between friends sir and it's all cool.

I just find it interesting that some will latch on to man's great ideas and always strive to find "more" truth, yet when it comes to faith, they draw a hard line, and say that's that?
Could it really be that Satan long ago planted seeds that suggests to us that anything of God - though man - must be "perfect?" That's not biblical in the slightest. Can't be in this side of death. So, why do some expect a perfect theology on earth? The orthodox Christian Church teaches otherwise.

Regrettably, there has been too much "bad" teaching in the name only of the Western orthodox church. Much of it started during the same era as science emerged; the mid-to-late 1800's. Is that a timing thing? God wanted to get a word or two out during the 1800's? Nope. People are people. If great discoveries are being made in all fields and Christianity is now designated, as it was in the 1800's, as another "category" than they want to head it up! I had a vision! I had a dream. God told me!
Ah. No.
So, then entered 1800's sects and cults of Christianity that mimic the era before/during the time of Christ. Polytheistic paganism. Man wanting to be gods. All the paganism then, and all the paganism now, are rehashed heretical versions of the original Hebrew faith that was given to the Gentile nations after Christ's sacrifice.
The only religion where God came to be a man and not the other way around.

All is in and through Him.
Blessings,
Mark

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7031020
10/29/20 12:03 AM
10/29/20 12:03 AM
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Florida
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bjansma Offline
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I am a Christian. That is my worldview, full disclosure. I am also a logical and rational person. I felt like I came up with a rational argument for Christianity when I was wrestling with my faith years ago. If someone is seeking a logical, rational argument for Christianity I hope this helps. Its not a perfect argument but it helped me.

Here it goes....

I feel as if the opposition, by the amount of persecution, proves that Christianity is real. Let me make an example. I don't spend(nobody does) arguing with flat earthers that they are wrong. They can believe it, preach it in the streets, etc, but I don't need to waste my time. I can shake my head, crack a joke, and go on about my day. But some people seem to declare it their life's purpose to disprove, or belittle Christianity.

Christianity endures all kinds of persecution. There aren't rock bands dedicated to making fun of and belittling Islam, or a belief in big bang theory, or(list anything you can think of) but there are many that make fun of Christianity. It seems as if the argument against proves the argument for. There is a concerted effort to discredit Christianity from all directions. It could be from personal attacks, government, science, education or music. The attacks come from every facet of the world we live in. No (fill in the blank, anything), has received so much effort to disprove it. Why? And, with such an effort, for 2000 years now Christianity has continued to grow.

I would argue that people would rather spend their lives to trying to discredit Christianity than allowing themselves to believe in its truth. Because believing that Christianity is true means you have to do what it says. Namely, submitting to God, and dealing with your sin by asking for forgiveness, and accepting Jesus' redemptive work on the cross. And that is too difficult for them.

Just another way of looking at it that I really haven't heard put out there before. Hope this helps someone.


Bob Jansma
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: cowboy2005] #7031042
10/29/20 12:34 AM
10/29/20 12:34 AM
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Illinois/Indiana (depends on t...
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Originally Posted by cowboy2005
I've not taken the time to read this thread but the little bit I glanced over it seems as tho Christianity is yet again being challenged. And I dont mean to get too involved in a conversation I'm not really going to take the time to be apart of but I will say this, if i die and find out that there is infact no God, Im a lot better off then if i live as tho there isn't and find out there is. I've heard it said also that "I know God exists because I met the devil." I think alot of us have whether we accept it or not. The difference is who was swayed by him and who wasn't, and i think we can all agree that there is a devil because the world seems to worship him (i.e Halloween) so if there's a devil then there's a God. Because if not we are all screwed.



We're all screwed regardless.

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7031049
10/29/20 01:04 AM
10/29/20 01:04 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



From time to time I'll post a chapel from DTS and this 39 minute chapel is from Dr. Scott Horrell titled;
Who am I? What am I?

Dr. Horrell is a wonderfully brilliant theologian who I had as my professor for Trinitarianism. Foundational is all I can say.
He's moved 37 times around the world in the past 40 some years and I'll have him once more for Angelology, and Anthropology next fall before he retires.

He discusses other religions including atheism a bit in the message.
He and I are having lunch tomorrow where I plan to ask him for pointers about a ministry project my daughter Katie, who attends nurse practitioner school, and I have invited to go on down in the Amazon jungle of South America. Dr. Horrell has been to SA many times.
The best teachers are usually the toughest in any education or vocation... he's one of those, and we all love this brilliant man with a huge love for other people.

https://voice.dts.edu/chapel/a-brief-theology-of-person/

Blessings,
Mark

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7031068
10/29/20 02:46 AM
10/29/20 02:46 AM
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Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline OP
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Atheism isn't a religion, Mark, it's a belief system. There are the words "theist" and "atheist," and they are opposites. The letter "a-" is a prefix that means the opposite of, like the in the word "atypical."

Buddhism is an interesting religion. It originated in India and spread throughout the Far East in the way Christianity spread through the West. The Buddha was said to have performed miracles, like levitating in the lotus position.

Buddhists believe everything is nothingness. We are essentially just holographic projections. A true master, or lesser buddha, avoids all attachments to things and people in the earthly world.

Buddhism had a big impact in Japan, where it's kind of melded with native Shintoism. Japanese people call a Buddhist monk for a birth and a funeral, but call a Shinto priest for a marriage. Go figure.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7031069
10/29/20 02:47 AM
10/29/20 02:47 AM
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Coeur d' Alene, Idaho
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James Offline OP
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Twolines, I'm glad you found peace in your soul and happiness in your life.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7031118
10/29/20 05:59 AM
10/29/20 05:59 AM
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central Haudenosaunee, the De...
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white marlin Offline
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Originally Posted by James
Buddhism is an interesting religion. It originated in India and spread throughout the Far East in the way Christianity spread through the West. The Buddha was said to have performed miracles, like levitating in the lotus position.

Buddhists believe everything is nothingness. We are essentially just holographic projections. A true master, or lesser buddha, avoids all attachments to things and people in the earthly world.

Jim


so did Linda Blair.

so, what GOOD does "avoiding all attachments to things and PEOPLE" do for anyone?

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7031139
10/29/20 06:37 AM
10/29/20 06:37 AM
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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I think its interesting that people are so quick to defend the religion they are raised in. Hindu, Buddhist, Jew, it doesn't matter. Most of the time they carry on like you have insulted them, they get angry in fact, when you tell them you have a different belief. Fortunately, most religions don't have a requirement for the faithful to proselytize. I am polite when approached until the proselytizer gets insistent. I feel like I am just sticking up for myself in the face of rude behavior at that point.

I have noticed a lot of interest in ancient religion the last few years. Asatru in Iceland and Pagan goddess worship in Britton that has taken root here in the U.S. is called Wicca now. A lot more American Indians have begun to practice their religion's as well. Pagan religion never really disappeared from Europe. This in spite of the persecution practitioners were subjected to. So resurgence doesn't really surprise me now that persecution has abated a bunch. American Indians were punished for their beliefs as well so again, resurgence today is only natural.

It seems a commonality amongst all humans worldwide to invent a religion that becomes intertwined with their culture. Defining morality as well as giving explanation to some common questions/mystery's all humans have. The biggy of course is the beginning of life.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: danny clifton] #7031142
10/29/20 06:42 AM
10/29/20 06:42 AM
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white marlin Offline
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
It seems a commonality amongst all humans worldwide to invent a religion that becomes intertwined with their culture. Defining morality as well as giving explanation to some common questions/mystery's all humans have. The biggy of course is the beginning of life.


how does Christianity fit your cultural norm thesis?

it was anything BUT!

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7031149
10/29/20 06:55 AM
10/29/20 06:55 AM
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danny clifton Offline
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It also appears to me that religion's gradually change to fit culture changes. Attitudes change about what is acceptable behavior and those changes incorporated into religious belief.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7031153
10/29/20 06:58 AM
10/29/20 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by James
Atheism isn't a religion, Mark, it's a belief system. There are the words "theist" and "atheist," and they are opposites. The letter "a-" is a prefix that means the opposite of, like the in the word "atypical."

Buddhism is an interesting religion. It originated in India and spread throughout the Far East in the way Christianity spread through the West. The Buddha was said to have performed miracles, like levitating in the lotus position.

Buddhists believe everything is nothingness. We are essentially just holographic projections. A true master, or lesser buddha, avoids all attachments to things and people in the earthly world.

Buddhism had a big impact in Japan, where it's kind of melded with native Shintoism. Japanese people call a Buddhist monk for a birth and a funeral, but call a Shinto priest for a marriage. Go figure.

Jim



So what do we know about "Shaolin"? I was a huge fan of the series Kung Fu as a kid and really for ever or at least until David Carradine managed to shatter his image.

Re: Other faiths than Christianity [Re: James] #7031160
10/29/20 07:13 AM
10/29/20 07:13 AM

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Mark June
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Mark June
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Originally Posted by James
Atheism isn't a religion, Mark, it's a belief system. There are the words "theist" and "atheist," and they are opposites. The letter "a-" is a prefix that means the opposite of, like the in the word "atypical."

Buddhism is an interesting religion. It originated in India and spread throughout the Far East in the way Christianity spread through the West. The Buddha was said to have performed miracles, like levitating in the lotus position.

Buddhists believe everything is nothingness. We are essentially just holographic projections. A true master, or lesser buddha, avoids all attachments to things and people in the earthly world.

Buddhism had a big impact in Japan, where it's kind of melded with native Shintoism. Japanese people call a Buddhist monk for a birth and a funeral, but call a Shinto priest for a marriage. Go figure.

Jim


I should have used the word "and" rather than the word "including."
You got me counselor. grin

Blessings,
Mark

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