This thread would need more pages if the listing is faiths other than Christianity that are not widely believed in. Who knows how many? Does it matter? Any other resurrection stories fulfill their writings like Christ did of God's promise of a Messiah to the 1st woman in the garden who had sinned in Genesis 3:15? And then perfectly laid out through 39 books and 1500 years of writers and prophecies? All was fulfilled. Pretty miraculous. Sure it is.

The Hebrew narrative is the intact ancient religious story that begins at Creation, is continued through the documented times of great pagan rulers, and is prophesied and written of days to come, that remains, is routinely used and in place today. Many other stories of things grand and small simply faded as did their theologies. Sure you can dig up a remnant of a long ago story and make it here and now, but that's just green eggs and ham, Sam I am. All other theology stories, while some include floods, creation narratives, dragons, and a host of gods, are not literal from beginning to end, and have eroded like the peoples that worshipped them.

The early Hebrew Scripture, know as the Torah, and the Books of the Judges, Kings, Chroniclers, Job, Prophets, Wisdom, and more was fulfilled entirely by one person who died and rose again in 33AD and now we are blessed to get to read the entire story.

God continues to call His children to repent and accept His story that has survived like none other. Even now. That's a lovingkindness (hêsed) the English language has no word for.
Pretty miraculous. Sure it is. For His glory, not ours.

Blessings on a Thursday y'all!
Mark

Ye Gads! Christianity has taken over the thread!

Who'd have expected it?

Jim

Mark June, do you customarily have a booth at the NTA convention?

It's too bad you weren't posting here in the days when I went to the NTA convention. It would be interesting to meet you. I might have dozens of questions to ask.

If the Old Testament prophecies are fulfilled so clearly and neatly by Jesus' death and resurrection, then why don't the Jews (who have the same holy book as the Old Testament) recognize Him as the Messiah?

Jim

Sorry James, but it's easier to talk about something you are familiar with. As a simple Christ follower I can talk about that or Mormonism of which I've studied about a lot (no I don't adhere to their beliefs one bit) but I don't want to talk about that here since I think we have a few Mormons on here.

I do know a bit about Zen Buddhists since my brother is one, I also know a bit about Teravadah Buddhism. My brother is somewhat of a scholar in the subject and has translated books into English for Thai Teravadah Buddhist scholars/monks.

From what I have learned from my brother is that Buddhism in general does not offer any hope of an afterlife. But Buddhists have snuck that into their belief system (primarily from Hinduism) since mankind's desire for hope in an afterlife is so strong.

My brother knows the Hebrew/Christian Bible very well. An interesting quote from him; "Your typical Southeast Asian knows about as much about the real teachings of the Buddha as the typical Roman Catholic knows about the Bible"; in other words not much. Sorry my R.C. friends and brothers, but it's true.

^^^^^^^
Another interesting thing my brother told me is that the Buddha essentially admonished people to not worship him, but that there would be someone coming who was great than him.
Sound familiar?
Just some history; this was about 500 years before Christ's appearance on earth.

That's like asking why they vote Democrat, it's inexplicable.

Read the Book of Acts James, specifically the part about Stephen. He was filled with the Holy Spirit and was telling a story based on known fact to make a point. What point was he trying to make right up until they took him out and stoned him to death....?

Israel and many of the Jewish people will remain stiff-necked and stubborn.......,That is until the fullness of the gentiles comes in.

Many, many Jews are coming to recognizie Yeshua as the Messiah as I type this out. Messianic Jews are increasing substantially throughout the world.........Soon our prayers of Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven will be fulfilled. Praise YHWH.

^^^^^
What Chauncey said

James, Yep, we've had a booth at every NTA with 3 exceptions since 1984. Sure wished I'd have saved all those convention buttons.
We'll be at the Spencer, IA convention front and center. Mark June's Lures is the Demo area sponsor each year at the NTA.
At least that is if Covid says we all can go????
Would love to talk any ologoy you care to and we play nice.
Look us up!

Blessings,
Mark

Oh and the Q about why Judaism didn't recognize the Messiah when He stood in their midst, preformed miracles like blind men seeing (symbolism) healing the sick (symbolism) and raising Lazarus from his putrid grave (symbolism)?

Same reasons as to why people don't recognize Him today. We imagine how we would run this here world and if God doesn't fit our explanation, we toss Him out as hogwash.
The Book of John is explicit and probably the plainest Greek text on the jealousy of the religious of Christ's day. They had to turn Jesus in for crimes. He was unsetting their apple cart.

Me, myself, and I are tough high priests to convince. They get fed personal sin food like pride, greed, anger, lust, envy, etc. and they like the taste. Messiah. We don't need no stinkin' Messiah!

Blessings!
Mark

Why do today's Jews continue to deny Jesus?

I think Danny is on to something: how you are raised usually determines what faith you belong to.

I met a Jewish lawyer, successful, who with his partners bought an old funeral home to convert to their law office. Before the Jewish lawyer would work there, he called in a rabbi to perform an exorcism of the evil spirits that were left behind.

I submit that most people don't come to a belief like that on their own. They're raised in it.

Jim

I don't see what the big deal is, Jim...you were raised (for the most part, I suspect) with a set of belief systems, too. I'll bet your father (or other significant male ROLE MODEL) valued certain characteristics and thought patterns, that you looked up to and admired. I'll bet that person valued reason and intellect over faith.

that doesn't make you better than anyone else...just different.

your arrogance makes you feel superior to others, who don't think like you do.

I don't know about James, but I don't discuss religion with my folks. Makes my mother cry and my Dad angry. Both are devout pentecostals. I just do like I do in any group setting when someone wants to pray. Remove my hat, bow my head, stand or sit quietly, and respect their freedom to believe.

You are a good man, danny...I respect that!

The way you are raised being the "reason" makes "sense" to the intellect but the history of the world shows us this is "not" a pre-determinant in your faith.
Here's the accurate "fact" of the faith.
Among persecution, it rises.
Among prosperity it withers.
Among those raised in the faith, it doesn't hurt, but it doesn't help.
We just took a survey as a matter of fact of the students here at DTS that bears this out in our modern world.
60 nations, the most diverse non-denominational seminary in the world by that count.
Now consider, it is a sacrifice of time, resources, and "doing other things," to attend any graduate level institution so they always question all of us as to our intent. Why are you here? What is your calling? Where are you headed? Our answers are usually I don't know. I'm not sure. And I have no idea.

To your thesis James here's this year's answers from DTS;
Outside the US,
4% come from a Christian home.
96% do not come from a Chrsitian home.
61% come from a nation that persecutees Christians
Over 90% plan to return to their home nation and church plant.
I study with men from Russia, West New Guinea Africa, Rwanda Africa, and New Zealand. 3 of the 4 are from persecution cultures. 1>Rwanda is scary dangerous as a fact.

From the US
43% come from a Christian home.
57% do not come from a Christian home.
Note: I'd say half of my professors were not raised Christians.

I think it's evident from the comments that there's one overarching theme that prevails;
Some of us believe there is a higher power that is bigger than "me". A world of facts bigger than "my" mind can imagine.
Most non- Christians begin their sentences always the same way; "I think." Renee Descartes; "I think, therefore I am."
All who are Christian also use, "I know, and I think often," but sometimes we back up and say "He does, or He can."

It's not where or how you were raised. That's why the Jews struggle to this day, but their nation (a remnant) will be delivered in the last days.
Perhaps they as a people, made up of individuals, suffer from what we all suffer from, sin of the flesh. Their Law no longer makes them righteous and Christ came to tell them it never ever did. Some still hold to it like they hold to voting for a political party that makes no sense. The political party that hates them more but "promises" them earthly treasures best. Men has fallen for that (Satan) since we were made in HIs Image.

It's always a remnant that remains faithful to God more than a whole people.
If we did it, we'd make it "fair." Our fair of course. My way is best. The Jewish Levite Priests turned 10 commands from God into 613 laws of man. There's your sign as Foxworthy says. We'd make everyone the same and not like that God who has his "subjects" on a string like a puppet.
Um, making everybody the same like you would want is being a puppet master. We think it's cool God gives us rational will to choose. Maybe that's the plan. Choose.

That's is the big story of Yahweh, Elohim, Adonai, God. His restoration of creation according to His Will.

Blessings James!
You coming to Spencer counselor?
Mark

A thought-provoking response as usual, Mark.

I don't disagree that a lot of people come to faith independently without an influence of their upbringing. After all, that was my son's experience; I didn't raise him to be a Christian. My wife, a cultural Buddhist, and I didn't take our kids to church or teach them about Jesus. Our son found Jesus on his own.

But by and large, I think (yes, I think, since we can't know these things for sure) most people wind up adopting their parents' faith, even if they don't get around to it for a while. My own parents are Christians because their parents were. My friend's Shintoist husband had been raised to be a Shintoist.

Jim

I think the reason Jews deny Jesus is because nominal Christianity doesn't actually follow what the Bible actually says. You may find my reasoning too simplistic. If you don't agree, I understand.

I have talked to a Messianic Jew. I find it a little unfair to lump all Jews into one boat. There's only a gazillion different strains of Judaism. Some Jews have come to know Jesus. The early church was roughly 90% Jewish background or more.

It is all beyond our knowing for sure.
Examples here. Examples there.

Some just say we can't figure it out like a Monday night football game planning session.
Who to beat. When to score. When to pass. When to take a timeout.

I'm one, who like king David, loves the outdoors. Wonders "why" do I love to trap? Most people don't trap. A lot of people hate trappers. I should just be like other people. Why have I always not liked to be inside? Why have I always been fascinated with things of creation? How it works. How it operates. How none of it needs anything from me yet works just fine without me. I marvel at the design of nature. There is complex. There is incredibly complex. And then there is the untold gad-zillion-trillions of atoms hovering around the untold trillions of universes in harmony. My body stops breathing for 3 minutes, I'm no more. Yet I breath each 3 minutes for 100 years. How'd my molecules up from the soup of invertebrates figure that out? Why not 1000 years? I like years. Why more than 10 on average? Survival of the fittest? Are atoms and systems fittest? If so, I'd pick 1000 fittest years. Darwin, as a theory, has been all but discounted as bunk. Only the elites who like it and hang on to teaching it remain. The zealots. There are always zealots. Anyone looked at the upper echelon of our teachers lately? Not the classroom teachers. The power brokers. The zealots. They like power. They like what they say goes. I never really wanted to be a zealot.

Nope I'm an outdoors lover. Always will be. And somebody put all this in place. And I prefer coyote trapping & studying things I don't have to know 100% to accept better than raccoon trapping, finding my way in life through vices, and being an indoors man.

It has no bearing on who raised you. That's a compass maybe. How many trappers on here come from trapping families? Some. Not most.
Tiss the same with our Lord's kingdom. Share the gospel of His plan and His Son and kind of like trapping, most shown it, will do other things they prefer to do.

If I had "my" way, I'd have people get outdoors more and look up at the stars instead of drinking too much, doping, swallowing pills, watching porn, beating their spouse, scheming for their next buck, and on and on. But it's not my way. Thank God. His are the ways that are good.

Blessings and Happy Friday!
Mark

Good stuff, good thread.

James, sorry it got taken over by Christianity. It would appear that T-man (primarily conservative North American outdoorsmen) are not a religiously diverse group. Predictably.


Why don't Jews accept Jesus? Different reasons historically. In Jesus time, there were 2 reasons: one, as noted, the religious leaders were comfortable, entrenched and didn't want the boat rocked. Second, even for the ones who believed the prophecies, Jesus didn't fit their preconceived idea. As people under occupation, they naturally assumed that a "Messiah" would free them from the Romans, and he didn't. Thousands of Jews did believe in Jesus, but the religious core didn't convert.
Later in history, various strains of "Christianity" turned anti-semitic. This widened the rift. Martin Luther, for example, wrote about exterminating Jews in Germany, and helped inspire Nazism. Jews have understandably developed a cultural distrust of Christianity.
Today, many Jews have never even heard that Jesus is related to the Torah, much less the Messiah. Many Rabbis essentially teach that Christianity is a completely different religion like Buddhism and not worth attention. But like Chancey said, this is changing today.




No, not primarily. To be a true Christian first of all means submitting to him. Christ is Lord. Not just an influence or a role model, but Lord. With that perspective all you have to to is read His words. He tells us what to do.

One of the problems that comes with rationalism is the desire to understand before we experience. I suppose that desire is natural, but rationalism sometimes makes a rule out of it.

Imagine if I said "I want to understand what skydiving feels like before I do it."
Using Mark's analogies, imagine someone saying "I want to understand why you love trapping BEFORE I'll go along.
How about saying "I want to understand love, and what causes it, and how it feels, before I try experiencing it."

All of these examples illustrate one point: We humans are experiential creatures, not purely rational. We are also spiritual. Sometimes we do things we don't understand, believe things we don't understand, and feel things we don't understand. Usually the understanding comes with the experience, though sometimes slowly.

Faith is not rational to anyone outside it. It's not supposed to be. It's spiritual and experiential, and to those who have experienced it it become the most logical thing in the world. We always want to understand from the outside, and some things just don't work like that.