No Profanity *** No Flaming *** No Advertising *** No Anti Trappers ***NO POLITICS
No Non-Target Catches *** No Links to Anti-trapping Sites *** No Avoiding Profanity Filter


Home~Trap Talk~ADC Forum~Trap Shed~Wilderness Trapping~International Trappers~Fur Handling

Auction Forum~Trapper Tips~Links~Gallery~Basic Sets~Convention Calendar~Chat~ Trap Collecting Forum

Trapper's Humor~Strictly Trapping~Fur Buyers Directory~Mugshots~Fur Sale Directory~Wildcrafting~The Pen and Quill

Trapper's Tales~Words From The Past~Legends~Archives~Kids Forum~Lure Formulators Forum~ Fermenter's Forum


~~~ Dobbins' Products Catalog ~~~


Minnesota Trapline Products
Please support our sponsor for the Trappers Talk Page - Minnesota Trapline Products


Print Thread
Hop To
Ammo Preference.....what they like #7087244
12/13/20 11:03 AM
12/13/20 11:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,207
Missouri
H
HayDay Offline OP
trapper
HayDay  Offline OP
trapper
H

Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,207
Missouri
Wasn't until I got into air rifles that I was exposed to the notion that rifles have a preference for what ammo they like. Find the right pellet and groups will shrink from an inch to nearly touching the same hole. Not only do groups open and close, but group centers move too. Now realize the powder burners do the same thing.

My question is......does anyone know why? I can understand open vs. tight groups, but why move up, down and sideways. Would think all ammo sent down the barrel would all head for the same place.

Re: Ammo Preference.....what they like [Re: HayDay] #7087248
12/13/20 11:09 AM
12/13/20 11:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 7,236
West Michigan
G
Getting There Offline
trapper
Getting There  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 7,236
West Michigan
I think it is the quality of the ammo. A lot of 22LR ammo is not that good, but buy match grade and you can shoot a much better group.
JMO.


To Old
U.S. Army 60-63 SGT.
Re: Ammo Preference.....what they like [Re: HayDay] #7087249
12/13/20 11:09 AM
12/13/20 11:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,241
The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane Offline
"HOSS"
Leftlane  Offline
"HOSS"

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,241
The Hill Country of Texas
Google terms like barrel harmonics and you might see some things that make sense of it,


“What’s good for me may not be good for the weak minded.”
Captain Gus McCrae- Texas Rangers


Re: Ammo Preference.....what they like [Re: HayDay] #7087331
12/13/20 12:24 PM
12/13/20 12:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,386
Green County Wisconsin
G
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper
GREENCOUNTYPETE  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,386
Green County Wisconsin
weight , friction and barrel harmonics


also are you shooting a spring air gun ?

spring air guns are special they recoil in the wrong direction at at all the wrong times to get more consistent "artillery hold" is used this is to hold the gun not tight into your shoulder but to basically just give it a platform to free recoil from exactly the opposite of shooting a real gun


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: Ammo Preference.....what they like [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #7087349
12/13/20 12:51 PM
12/13/20 12:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,117
Northern Wisconsin,Rhinelander
Hodagtrapper Offline
Muskrat Master
Hodagtrapper  Offline
Muskrat Master

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,117
Northern Wisconsin,Rhinelander
Originally Posted by GREENCOUNTYPETE
weight , friction and barrel harmonics


also are you shooting a spring air gun ?

spring air guns are special they recoil in the wrong direction at at all the wrong times to get more consistent "artillery hold" is used this is to hold the gun not tight into your shoulder but to basically just give it a platform to free recoil from exactly the opposite of shooting a real gun


^^^^True^^^^

Chris


>>In God we trust<<
Re: Ammo Preference.....what they like [Re: HayDay] #7087357
12/13/20 01:02 PM
12/13/20 01:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,207
Missouri
H
HayDay Offline OP
trapper
HayDay  Offline OP
trapper
H

Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,207
Missouri
I understand all that, but still find it odd that even if I let a springer air rifle "float" on my bag rests.......and one set of pellets will all head for one spot, and another set head for another.

And I kinda get that Beeman 7.9 Trophy pellets will do one thing and 7.9 Crosman premier lites will do another. If quality and consistency were an issue......like you could weigh and sort for........that you would get open groups from one........but still find it odd that one gun will shoot the Trophy through the same hole, but spread the PL's and another gun do the opposite......spread the Trophies and shoot a tight group with the PL's.

And as for .22's or any of the big bores........I can understand the difference you ought to get with group sizes between cheap factory ammo and what you ought to get from match grade or hand loads.........but still find it odd that even with the latter, the group will print in different locations.

Re: Ammo Preference.....what they like [Re: HayDay] #7087360
12/13/20 01:06 PM
12/13/20 01:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,207
Missouri
H
HayDay Offline OP
trapper
HayDay  Offline OP
trapper
H

Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,207
Missouri
That is outside what ballistics will dictate. Would not expect same drop from a 75 grain bullet loaded for velocity vs. a 100 grain in same gun. But would think they still ought to print in line up and down......and not drift to one side or the other. There must be a reason for it, just never knew what it was.

Re: Ammo Preference.....what they like [Re: HayDay] #7089550
12/14/20 07:33 PM
12/14/20 07:33 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 91
Idaho (north central)
K
Katcatcher Offline
trapper
Katcatcher  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 91
Idaho (north central)
It is not at all odd that particular rifles (air rifles included) seem to like particular bullet shapes or weights. There are far too many reasons for this that even firearms experts with years of experience do not understand all of them.
I definitely am not one of these "experts" but I live in Lewiston, Idaho where there is one of the largest ammunition, bullet and primer manufactures in the US.
As a former part time gunsmith I know several of them personally and have talked to them extensively. Why a bullet shape or weight will simply not shoot good groups in a particular rifle is often as puzzling to them. Generally glass bedding and action and free floating the barrel works or with the occasional rifle that wants some forend pressure to make the shoot well.
Recently I bought 2 American made .308 rifles that have an extremely good reputation for out of the box accuracy. I was a gunsmith for over 20 years and sighted in lots of rifles for customers each year. Without a doubt these 2 rifles were the worst shooting rifles I had ever shot. They both shot multiple 5 shot 6" to 8" that looked more like a pattern than a group. This was from a lead sled that I can shoot 1/2" 5 shot groups with my varmint rifles. I even had my son come and shoot the rifles and the results were the same. So I ruled out the shooter and bench rest equipment. I was using a well respected and high priced factory ammo. [Yes it was made here in Lewiston but does not have their name on it.] I checked and rechecked the scope mounts and bases and found nothing wrong. I replaced one of the rifle scopes and still no change. So I pulled both of them out of their stocks and checked the bedding and retightened them to specs but still the problem was still there. I had by then I shot well over 100 rounds through these 2 rifles.
I finally decided it was possible that these 2 rifles did not like the ammo although I was extremely skeptical so I tried a box of less expensive but a different bullet weight and both rifles shot two 5 shot, under 1 1/2", groups. I have NEVER seen this before. Yes I have seen rifles that didn't group as well but never multiple 6 and 8 inch random groups. To have them change to get 1" & 1 1/2" groups was far different than I would ever thought possible. I was hoping to find a load that would shoot under 3" groups.
Because I don't like the bullet shape and expansion rate of the box of ammo I bought I will be loading my favorite Hornady hunting bullet in them in the same bullet weight as the inexpensive "Big Green" factory ammo.
The good thing is I have enough powder and different bullets to get them to shoot now that I know what they are capable doing. I miss having my own 100 to 500 yard private rifle range off my back porch but there are other much more important things that I had to considered in life.
For those that might be wondering why I bought factory ammo to start with rather than handload to start with. It was simply a timing thing and I could use the brass for reloading and neck size only each of them next year. As it happened it took far more time and we used totally different rifles that I already had because of the poor initial shooting of the new rifles.
Building a rifle and making a handload for it to match the animal intended to harvest with it is not as fascinating as it was when I first started in the mid 50's but I still enjoy it. I was handloading for my sporterized 30-06 Enfield right after the first Speer manual came out.


BETTER WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT BY GAME MANAGERS
LISTENING TO "REAL" KNOWLEDGEABLE HUNTERS AND TRAPPERS
Re: Ammo Preference.....what they like [Re: Leftlane] #7089565
12/14/20 07:40 PM
12/14/20 07:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62,661
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline

trapper
330-Trapper  Offline

trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62,661
Minnesota
Originally Posted by Leftlane
Google terms like barrel harmonics and you might see some things that make sense of it,

Absolutely

Choose 9 shells

3 of each brand could be 12, 15,18

Just fire 3 shot groups same bench rest same all else....

Dosent matter where on the target they land. You're just looking for the tightest group.

Move that group, type to center. Barrels are individual


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Ammo Preference.....what they like [Re: Getting There] #7089653
12/14/20 08:21 PM
12/14/20 08:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 91
Idaho (north central)
K
Katcatcher Offline
trapper
Katcatcher  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 91
Idaho (north central)
"I think it is the quality of the ammo. A lot of 22LR ammo is not that good, but buy match grade and you can shoot a much better group.
JMO."

GETTING THERE
You are someone even older than I am. I get that from the early 60's US Army. I am guessing you at about 80 and I am only in my mid70's. I do not like to disagree with anyone but "especially" someone older than I am.

And although I would "generally" agree with your statement it is not ALWAYS true.
I have shot match grade .22 rifles that on occasion would shoot as well if not better with a particular batch of regular CCI or Federal ammo. I had never experienced any match grade ammo ever shooting poorly in any of my rifles but I believe that it could happen.

The fact is match grade ammo is made on the same presses, with the same bullets, the same powder mixture and priming cases and components. It is when they are tested that a batch becomes selected as match grade and not before. The match grade batch is then shot in a few different match grade rifles to be sure and then they are put into "match grade" allotment boxes. It is when they quit shooting into the "match grade" specs that they are moved back into the regular ammo.

One of the people testing all the different types of .22 ammo produced at the CCI factory everyday for many years was the job of a wife a man that I worked with. (That is a fact and not hear say.) She was the one that told me that was how the match grade ammo was selected. She is retired now so she won't get into trouble for giving away company secrets. What she told me is "hear say" and would not be admissible in a court of law but I am pretty confident that it is true.


BETTER WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT BY GAME MANAGERS
LISTENING TO "REAL" KNOWLEDGEABLE HUNTERS AND TRAPPERS
Re: Ammo Preference.....what they like [Re: HayDay] #7089953
12/14/20 10:12 PM
12/14/20 10:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,150
Tennessee
Scuba1 Offline
"color blind Kraut"
Scuba1  Offline
"color blind Kraut"

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,150
Tennessee
This should give you a good idea what is happening

http://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm


Let's go Brandon

"Shall not comply" with morons who don't understand "shall not infringe."
Re: Ammo Preference.....what they like [Re: Katcatcher] #7090015
12/14/20 10:35 PM
12/14/20 10:35 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10,726
SW Georgia
W
Wanna Be Offline
trapper
Wanna Be  Offline
trapper
W

Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10,726
SW Georgia
Originally Posted by Katcatcher
It is not at all odd that particular rifles (air rifles included) seem to like particular bullet shapes or weights. There are far too many reasons for this that even firearms experts with years of experience do not understand all of them.
I definitely am not one of these "experts" but I live in Lewiston, Idaho where there is one of the largest ammunition, bullet and primer manufactures in the US.
As a former part time gunsmith I know several of them personally and have talked to them extensively. Why a bullet shape or weight will simply not shoot good groups in a particular rifle is often as puzzling to them. Generally glass bedding and action and free floating the barrel works or with the occasional rifle that wants some forend pressure to make the shoot well.
Recently I bought 2 American made .308 rifles that have an extremely good reputation for out of the box accuracy. I was a gunsmith for over 20 years and sighted in lots of rifles for customers each year. Without a doubt these 2 rifles were the worst shooting rifles I had ever shot. They both shot multiple 5 shot 6" to 8" that looked more like a pattern than a group. This was from a lead sled that I can shoot 1/2" 5 shot groups with my varmint rifles. I even had my son come and shoot the rifles and the results were the same. So I ruled out the shooter and bench rest equipment. I was using a well respected and high priced factory ammo. [Yes it was made here in Lewiston but does not have their name on it.] I checked and rechecked the scope mounts and bases and found nothing wrong. I replaced one of the rifle scopes and still no change. So I pulled both of them out of their stocks and checked the bedding and retightened them to specs but still the problem was still there. I had by then I shot well over 100 rounds through these 2 rifles.
I finally decided it was possible that these 2 rifles did not like the ammo although I was extremely skeptical so I tried a box of less expensive but a different bullet weight and both rifles shot two 5 shot, under 1 1/2", groups. I have NEVER seen this before. Yes I have seen rifles that didn't group as well but never multiple 6 and 8 inch random groups. To have them change to get 1" & 1 1/2" groups was far different than I would ever thought possible. I was hoping to find a load that would shoot under 3" groups.
Because I don't like the bullet shape and expansion rate of the box of ammo I bought I will be loading my favorite Hornady hunting bullet in them in the same bullet weight as the inexpensive "Big Green" factory ammo.
The good thing is I have enough powder and different bullets to get them to shoot now that I know what they are capable doing. I miss having my own 100 to 500 yard private rifle range off my back porch but there are other much more important things that I had to considered in life.
For those that might be wondering why I bought factory ammo to start with rather than handload to start with. It was simply a timing thing and I could use the brass for reloading and neck size only each of them next year. As it happened it took far more time and we used totally different rifles that I already had because of the poor initial shooting of the new rifles.
Building a rifle and making a handload for it to match the animal intended to harvest with it is not as fascinating as it was when I first started in the mid 50's but I still enjoy it. I was handloading for my sporterized 30-06 Enfield right after the first Speer manual came out.





Please say they were Savage rifles. My son and I were tasked with sighting a couple in a few weeks ago and we both thought we had bumped our heads. These guns were all over the place...and that was before even attempting to move the scope to get them on target. We even swapped rifles (2 different calibers) to see if one of us was flinching maybe.
After about 12 shots in each they both settled down to 1” groups. It was the craziest thing I’d ever seen. We even pulled out our rifles (Rugers but different calibers) to make sure it wasn’t our shooting abilities, but .5” 3 shot groups at 100 told us we were steady.

Re: Ammo Preference.....what they like [Re: HayDay] #7090270
12/15/20 01:26 AM
12/15/20 01:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 828
Hill City,Mn.
R
Rally Offline
trapper
Rally  Offline
trapper
R

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 828
Hill City,Mn.
There have been books written and studies done on this subject to no end. Each shot is different, conditions (external and internal) are different with each shot, unless you are shooting inside in a temp controlled lab/range. Bore changes with each shot, temp, fowling, vibration. The farther from muzzle to target the more effect externals have on bullet impact. If you think your .5" group is good at 70 degrees, go shoot it at 0 degrees and see how much it changes.


Keep your boots dry
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread