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ATF Reverses Course #7103406
12/24/20 09:54 AM
12/24/20 09:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 16,988
Fredonia, PA.
Finster Offline OP
trapper
Finster  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 16,988
Fredonia, PA.
ATF Reverses Course, Withdraws Guidance on AR Pistol Reclassification

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) withdrew the guidance on its proposed AR pistol reclassification Wednesday.

This is a stark reversal of the ATF’s steady push toward changing rules and placing some AR pistols with stabilizer braces under the purview of the National Firearms Act (NFA) and/or Gun Control Act (GCA).

On November 18, 2020, Breitbart News reported that the ATF was working with President-Elect Joe Biden to go after AR pistols with stabilizer braces. This pursuit resulted in the ATF being posed to reevaluate and reclassify a number of AR pistols with stabilizer braces, placing them under the same registration and taxation rules as suppressors, machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, and short-barreled rifles.

On December 22, 2020, Breitbart News informed readers that the ATF had posted guidance for AR pistol reclassification to the Federal Register. On that same day, Rep. Richard Hudson (R-NC) and 89 other U.S. Reps. sent a letter to the ATF demanding they reverse course and correct the “injustice” of reclassifying AR pistols.

On Wednesday, December 23, 2020, the NRA announced that the ATF had withdrawn the guidance for its proposed AR pistol reclassification:

The ATF’s withdrawal announcement says:

Upon further consultation with the Department of Justice and the Office of the Deputy Attorney General, ATF is withdrawing, pending further Department of Justice review, the notice and request for comments entitled “Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with ‘Stabilizing Braces’,” that was published on December 18, 2020. As explained in the notice, the proposed guidance was not a regulation. The notice informed and invited comment from the industry and public on a proposed guidance prior to issuing a final guidance document.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...se-withdraws-ar-pistol-reclassification/


I BELIEVE IN MY GOD, MY COUNTRY AND IN MYSELF.
Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Finster] #7103421
12/24/20 10:03 AM
12/24/20 10:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,922
2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
Blaine County Offline
trapper
Blaine County  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,922
2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
I saw this too. I expect "they" are waiting until late January/February to restart the whole mess.

Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Finster] #7103422
12/24/20 10:03 AM
12/24/20 10:03 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,162
Green Bay, Wisconsin
tlguy Offline
trapper
tlguy  Offline
trapper

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,162
Green Bay, Wisconsin
The article I read said something to the effect that they could "revisit" this issue at a later time after more consideration.

Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Finster] #7103467
12/24/20 10:30 AM
12/24/20 10:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,150
Tennessee
Scuba1 Offline
"color blind Kraut"
Scuba1  Offline
"color blind Kraut"

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,150
Tennessee
Meanwhile they are creating a gun registry with the documents they got from the 500 walmart gun counter closures and every other closed LGS that shut shop in the past. Completely against the law but they are still doing it.


Let's go Brandon

"Shall not comply" with morons who don't understand "shall not infringe."
Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Finster] #7103476
12/24/20 10:38 AM
12/24/20 10:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,750
williamsburg ks
I have always thought the illegal insta check scam was to create a gun owner registry. No need to try and track all the untraceable guns in this country if you just know who owns them.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Finster] #7103491
12/24/20 10:44 AM
12/24/20 10:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,377
Green County Wisconsin
G
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper
GREENCOUNTYPETE  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,377
Green County Wisconsin
my son was telling me in a few days time they had more than 50K official letters when M855 was up for banning it brought 80K letters total.
maybe they decided the push back was going to be too great

around 5.5 million pistol braces out there is the claim , millions of new felons well that would be too many all at once apparently.

also with the talk that ATF could do expedited free tax stamps well that doesn't sit well , if they could do that for 5.5 million pistol braces why can't they manage to process the much smaller number of normal stamps in a reasonable time.

the hole thing stinks , they regulate with illegal tax based on an interstate commerce clause . to gain defacto registration then they claim they could do it free and expedited when they are currently taking months to process something that they get 200 dollars for and have had more than 80 years to get figured out and can't or more likely Won't .


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Finster] #7103539
12/24/20 11:13 AM
12/24/20 11:13 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 16,988
Fredonia, PA.
Finster Offline OP
trapper
Finster  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 16,988
Fredonia, PA.
My theory is they are waiting for Creepy Joe and the Hoe. There will be no stopping it then, especially if Americans lose the senate.


I BELIEVE IN MY GOD, MY COUNTRY AND IN MYSELF.
Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Finster] #7103917
12/24/20 03:20 PM
12/24/20 03:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,238
The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane Offline
"HOSS"
Leftlane  Offline
"HOSS"

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,238
The Hill Country of Texas
I'm not sure who we should defund first: top of my list would be the IRS, the ATF, and what has passed for an FBI here lately but I am sure I am forgetting some other notables.


“What’s good for me may not be good for the weak minded.”
Captain Gus McCrae- Texas Rangers


Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Leftlane] #7103921
12/24/20 03:22 PM
12/24/20 03:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,689
pa
H
hippie Offline
trapper
hippie  Offline
trapper
H

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,689
pa
Originally Posted by Leftlane
I'm not sure who we should defund first: top of my list would be the IRS, the ATF, and what has passed for an FBI here lately but I am sure I am forgetting some other notables.


Imo, we need a reset button on all the ABC agencies. They're all infested

Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Finster] #7103936
12/24/20 03:29 PM
12/24/20 03:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,238
The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane Offline
"HOSS"
Leftlane  Offline
"HOSS"

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,238
The Hill Country of Texas
Ok ya talked me into it. I'm easy to convince you could say when it comes to BS like we get out of DC.

I hear everyone talking about draining the swamp but I say we drown a bunch of SOBs first LOL


“What’s good for me may not be good for the weak minded.”
Captain Gus McCrae- Texas Rangers


Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Finster] #7103991
12/24/20 04:07 PM
12/24/20 04:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
M
Mike in A-town Offline
trapper
Mike in A-town  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
In my opinion AR pistols are about as useful as bump stocks, I wouldn't own one. Having said that, it's an arbitrary reversal of policy and just another example of infringement. So I went to the ATF website and commented on their proposal. I wasn't hateful, didn't threaten, didn't call them a bunch of no-good, dirty, so-and-so's... even though they are. But I made it abundantly clear that a good portion of the American gun community are thoroughly disgusted with unelected bureaucrats changing policy on a whim when political agendas/aspirations present the opportunity.

Considering the "challenges" we've all faced this year... Covid, lockdowns, civil unrest, a contentious (putting it mildly) political landscape and election... And some unelected peckerneck decides that this is a good time to just spontaneously change a policy?

I had heard some scuttlebutt that some ATF field agents weren't real keen on trying to enforce this... Seems they figured it was a quick way to get a lot of people fitted for body bags. I wonder if that had some influence on the decision... I doubt it but who knows.

They'll try again as soon as they can.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Leftlane] #7104012
12/24/20 04:26 PM
12/24/20 04:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
M
Mike in A-town Offline
trapper
Mike in A-town  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
Originally Posted by Leftlane
Ok ya talked me into it. I'm easy to convince you could say when it comes to BS like we get out of DC.

I hear everyone talking about draining the swamp but I say we drown a bunch of SOBs first LOL


I honestly believe that a lot of folks in DC think that we are all soft and scared and will trade comfort for freedom... And they're partially right, a LOT of us are... But not all.

A lot of people believe in liberty, and the constitution, etc... And there will be those who resist because of that. But there's also a certain percentage of people who will fight simply because they feel like it... Their favorite thing is to poke 'The Man' in the eye when he says you aren't allowed to do something, just because.

There is a certain percentage of people who will, just for kicks, die in a pile of brass surrounded by the bodies of dead agents. For whatever reason, nature wired them that way.

Lot of "Cool Hand Luke's" out there.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Finster] #7104065
12/24/20 04:55 PM
12/24/20 04:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,001
USA MN
Snowpa Offline
trapper
Snowpa  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,001
USA MN
The problem would be uniting . As I see it without getting a number a good number to follow a leader we would stand no chance .


Never Confuse Stupid With Crazy
Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Snowpa] #7104130
12/24/20 05:41 PM
12/24/20 05:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
M
Mike in A-town Offline
trapper
Mike in A-town  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
Originally Posted by Snowpa
The problem would be uniting . As I see it without getting a number a good number to follow a leader we would stand no chance .


Don't unite.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Mike in A-town] #7104235
12/24/20 06:50 PM
12/24/20 06:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,377
Green County Wisconsin
G
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper
GREENCOUNTYPETE  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 18,377
Green County Wisconsin
Originally Posted by Mike in A-town
In my opinion AR pistols are about as useful as bump stocks, I wouldn't own one. Having said that, it's an arbitrary reversal of policy and just another example of infringement. So I went to the ATF website and commented on their proposal. I wasn't hateful, didn't threaten, didn't call them a bunch of no-good, dirty, so-and-so's... even though they are. But I made it abundantly clear that a good portion of the American gun community are thoroughly disgusted with unelected bureaucrats changing policy on a whim when political agendas/aspirations present the opportunity.

Considering the "challenges" we've all faced this year... Covid, lockdowns, civil unrest, a contentious (putting it mildly) political landscape and election... And some unelected peckerneck decides that this is a good time to just spontaneously change a policy?

I had heard some scuttlebutt that some ATF field agents weren't real keen on trying to enforce this... Seems they figured it was a quick way to get a lot of people fitted for body bags. I wonder if that had some influence on the decision... I doubt it but who knows.

They'll try again as soon as they can.

Mike


while I did not find the bump stock useful nor did I own one , it was and is not a Machine gun under any portion of the definition . if they really found it that much of an issue they went about prohibiting use all wrong.

I must respectfully disagree very strongly on AR pistols especially those that have braces

I will let Paul help make my point with some excellent data collected for you in video form

notice how accuracy is virtually the same as the rifles

then take notice of how much faster his transitions are


in this second video notice the velocity and effectiveness on targets at 200 yards he is comparing 20 to 10.5 is you run the same PSP rounds in 55gr through a 16 inch barrel I think you will find they are about 2950 that would put the 10.5 at 93.6% of the velocity taking the 10.5 to basically 222rem velocities and that has proven plenty effective



agencies and the military have gone on at length in reports about the usefullness and effectiveness of the PDW personal defensive weapon and it's role. making a strong point why police depatments , LE agencies and both combat and support units benifit

the only difference is as civilians we must use a brace or pay a 200 dollar tax stamp , register and have difficulty transporting across some state lines.

should the ATF simplify and all guns less than 26 inches with a barrel length less than 16 inches just be considered short arms / handguns restricting the purchase of them to 21 and up , yes
however smart that would be I don't see it happening so braced pistols are it for now.

US special agent ret set a new long distance handgun record this year with a brace https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/victor-avila-sets-new-world-record-for-longest-handgun-shot-301132805.html#:~:text=RENO%2C%20Nev.%2C%20Sept.,target%20with%20a%20Glock%2023.

speaking more to the effective use of braces


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Mike in A-town] #7104304
12/24/20 07:40 PM
12/24/20 07:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 484
MO
T
trap master Offline
trapper
trap master  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 484
MO
Originally Posted by Mike in A-town
Originally Posted by Leftlane
Ok ya talked me into it. I'm easy to convince you could say when it comes to BS like we get out of DC.

I hear everyone talking about draining the swamp but I say we drown a bunch of SOBs first LOL


I honestly believe that a lot of folks in DC think that we are all soft and scared and will trade comfort for freedom... And they're partially right, a LOT of us are... But not all.

A lot of people believe in liberty, and the constitution, etc... And there will be those who resist because of that. But there's also a certain percentage of people who will fight simply because they feel like it... Their favorite thing is to poke 'The Man' in the eye when he says you aren't allowed to do something, just because.

There is a certain percentage of people who will, just for kicks, die in a pile of brass surrounded by the bodies of dead agents. For whatever reason, nature wired them that way.

Lot of "Cool Hand Luke's" out there.

Mike



Thats because some people would rather fight and die being free than live as a slave...Kinda like how this country was founded, guess some of us still believe in it. I would also say if you not willing to die for your cause, you should probably just turn your guns in when they tell you to.

Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Finster] #7104316
12/24/20 07:45 PM
12/24/20 07:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 381
Southern Ohio
O
Ohiowoodchuck Offline
trapper
Ohiowoodchuck  Offline
trapper
O

Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 381
Southern Ohio
I seen where a atf agent came to get a shotgun from a guy who wasn’t suppose to have one and he didn’t answer the door and called the police on the atf agent. The Columbus police or the Franklin County Sheriff held him on the ground at gun point until they could figure out who he was. I still don’t think they took the guys shotgun. The atf agent was nine kinds of mad over the incident. I’ll see if I can find the article.

Last edited by Ohiowoodchuck; 12/24/20 07:47 PM.

“If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.”
— Thomas Paine
Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: Finster] #7104321
12/24/20 07:50 PM
12/24/20 07:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 381
Southern Ohio
O
Ohiowoodchuck Offline
trapper
Ohiowoodchuck  Offline
trapper
O

Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 381
Southern Ohio
Here it is. They don’t like it when there tactics are used against them. https://www.google.com/amp/s/local1...after-he-was-tased-on-the-job-cincinnati


“If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.”
— Thomas Paine
Re: ATF Reverses Course [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #7104365
12/24/20 08:15 PM
12/24/20 08:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
M
Mike in A-town Offline
trapper
Mike in A-town  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
Originally Posted by GREENCOUNTYPETE
Originally Posted by Mike in A-town
In my opinion AR pistols are about as useful as bump stocks, I wouldn't own one. Having said that, it's an arbitrary reversal of policy and just another example of infringement. So I went to the ATF website and commented on their proposal. I wasn't hateful, didn't threaten, didn't call them a bunch of no-good, dirty, so-and-so's... even though they are. But I made it abundantly clear that a good portion of the American gun community are thoroughly disgusted with unelected bureaucrats changing policy on a whim when political agendas/aspirations present the opportunity.

Considering the "challenges" we've all faced this year... Covid, lockdowns, civil unrest, a contentious (putting it mildly) political landscape and election... And some unelected peckerneck decides that this is a good time to just spontaneously change a policy?

I had heard some scuttlebutt that some ATF field agents weren't real keen on trying to enforce this... Seems they figured it was a quick way to get a lot of people fitted for body bags. I wonder if that had some influence on the decision... I doubt it but who knows.

They'll try again as soon as they can.

Mike


while I did not find the bump stock useful nor did I own one , it was and is not a Machine gun under any portion of the definition . if they really found it that much of an issue they went about prohibiting use all wrong.

I must respectfully disagree very strongly on AR pistols especially those that have braces

I will let Paul help make my point with some excellent data collected for you in video form

notice how accuracy is virtually the same as the rifles

then take notice of how much faster his transitions are


in this second video notice the velocity and effectiveness on targets at 200 yards he is comparing 20 to 10.5 is you run the same PSP rounds in 55gr through a 16 inch barrel I think you will find they are about 2950 that would put the 10.5 at 93.6% of the velocity taking the 10.5 to basically 222rem velocities and that has proven plenty effective



agencies and the military have gone on at length in reports about the usefullness and effectiveness of the PDW personal defensive weapon and it's role. making a strong point why police depatments , LE agencies and both combat and support units benifit

the only difference is as civilians we must use a brace or pay a 200 dollar tax stamp , register and have difficulty transporting across some state lines.

should the ATF simplify and all guns less than 26 inches with a barrel length less than 16 inches just be considered short arms / handguns restricting the purchase of them to 21 and up , yes
however smart that would be I don't see it happening so braced pistols are it for now.

US special agent ret set a new long distance handgun record this year with a brace https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/victor-avila-sets-new-world-record-for-longest-handgun-shot-301132805.html#:~:text=RENO%2C%20Nev.%2C%20Sept.,target%20with%20a%20Glock%2023.

speaking more to the effective use of braces


Pete, perhaps I should've said I have as much desire to own an AR pistol as I do a bump stock... I know folks who own them and love them. Just not my thing. But if someone wants one, by God they should have the freedom to own one... And I think if you want to put a brace, shoulder stock, sling, scaffolding, heat-seeking missile, etc... on it, you should be able to.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
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