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Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: hippie] #7143057
01/18/21 04:07 PM
01/18/21 04:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Bruce T Offline
trapper
Bruce T  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Trout and salmon cool


Nevada bound
Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: hippie] #7143060
01/18/21 04:08 PM
01/18/21 04:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,689
pa
H
hippie Offline OP
trapper
hippie  Offline OP
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H

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,689
pa
They must need better, or worse water than we have now..
Fish and rats disappearing. Only thing still living in it are junk fish like carp and catfish.

Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: hippie] #7143064
01/18/21 04:10 PM
01/18/21 04:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62,660
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline

trapper
330-Trapper  Offline

trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62,660
Minnesota
Very sad deal

Can you contact the DNR or a university research professor?

Or the News


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: hippie] #7143075
01/18/21 04:15 PM
01/18/21 04:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,689
pa
H
hippie Offline OP
trapper
hippie  Offline OP
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H

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,689
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They've been studying it, the whole Susquehanna river basin is being studied. Lots of ideas being thrown around.

Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: hippie] #7143078
01/18/21 04:15 PM
01/18/21 04:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,323
se South Dakota
NonPCfed Offline
trapper
NonPCfed  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 6,323
se South Dakota
I don't want to make this too technical, but optical sensors on satellites are only seeing part so the electromagnetic spectrum, mostly visible light and those readings just off of that, such as near infrared. The produced images are how light is reflected or absorbed on the surface. Often images are seen in various combos of "bands" that the satellite's sensor is using, just using blue, red, or green bands is pretty boring. Features can look pretty dull. Typically, one of the infrared bands is used, either as the "leading" band in say a 3-band combo, or somewhere in the combination. By changing the combinations, you can change the "colors" of the Earth features seen. So, when its reported, and remember if its a media report, they have to be able to translate what a scientist or technician is telling them--I've met some fairly dense reporters-- that the river is changing from "blue to green to yellow" is this over time, with the same band combos used, or is it one time but using different band combinations, or both...? It sort of depends.

As for nutrient pollution in rivers, point source pollution has been cleaned up a lot from say when the first Landsat satellite was launched in 1972. Non-point nutrient pollution not so much by say stopping such pollution but perhaps more from better nutrient management being done on the land. Decomposed fertilizer that is not used efficiency in land-use ends up being wasted money. "Precision agriculture" application of say crop fertilizer decreases the amount of nutrient pollution either coming overland into streams or through groundwater infiltration into streams. but its not across the board that all waterways have less nutrient enrichment. Its complicated...


"And God said, Let us make man in our image �and let them have dominion �and all the creatures that move along the ground".
Genesis 1:26
Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: hippie] #7143082
01/18/21 04:18 PM
01/18/21 04:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
M
Mike in A-town Offline
trapper
Mike in A-town  Offline
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M

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
Originally Posted by hippie
The river I live on, the Juniata which use to be billed as the Blue Juniata is now green.

Years ago it had nice weedbeds along the shallow portions. Not hardly any now. Below the bridge leading into Port Royal its shallow and would choke clean shut with weeds.
Don't see any now.


Where at along the Juniata? I spent a few weeks up in the Huntingdon/Mt Union area in 2017 (IIRC) and would spend my Sundays off just driving around and hiking the state park there around Huntingdon.

That's some of the most beautiful country I've had the privilege of seeing.

I even bought a car while I was there. laugh

Mike

Last edited by Mike in A-town; 01/18/21 04:19 PM. Reason: I bought a car.

One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: hippie] #7143084
01/18/21 04:19 PM
01/18/21 04:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,689
pa
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hippie Offline OP
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hippie  Offline OP
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Down river, around Port Royal.

Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: hippie] #7143088
01/18/21 04:22 PM
01/18/21 04:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,147
Fontana KS
A
Andrew Eastwood Offline
trapper
Andrew Eastwood  Offline
trapper
A

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,147
Fontana KS
Did otter show up at the same time as the decline in rats and fish? Don't know if it is coincidence or not, but when otter started showing up around here the fish and rat numbers in small tributaries started declining. Now that otters are very prevalent, rats and fish are almost nonexistent in those tributaries. The other thing I noticed around the same period is widespread use of herbicides instead of cultivation for weed control in farming. These herbicides running off may contribute to the decline in water based vegetation causing a decline in rat and fish habitat.
These are the things I have thought about as to rat population decline and they could contribute the color change as well.

Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: hippie] #7143091
01/18/21 04:24 PM
01/18/21 04:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
M
Mike in A-town Offline
trapper
Mike in A-town  Offline
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M

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
Originally Posted by hippie
Down river, around Port Royal.


Bit north and east of where I was then.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: Andrew Eastwood] #7143107
01/18/21 04:33 PM
01/18/21 04:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Bruce T Offline
trapper
Bruce T  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Originally Posted by Andrew Eastwood
Did otter show up at the same time as the decline in rats and fish? Don't know if it is coincidence or not, but when otter started showing up around here the fish and rat numbers in small tributaries started declining. Now that otters are very prevalent, rats and fish are almost nonexistent in those tributaries. The other thing I noticed around the same period is widespread use of herbicides instead of cultivation for weed control in farming. These herbicides running off may contribute to the decline in water based vegetation causing a decline in rat and fish habitat.
These are the things I have thought about as to rat population decline and they could contribute the color change as well.

Not here.Always been alot of otter here.


Nevada bound
Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: hippie] #7143113
01/18/21 04:40 PM
01/18/21 04:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,147
Fontana KS
A
Andrew Eastwood Offline
trapper
Andrew Eastwood  Offline
trapper
A

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,147
Fontana KS
Thank you Bruce. We just recently got them (otter), but it correlated with the timing of no till farming and river changes. If you have always had them and still had the changes, that would lead me to think the otter did not change anything. This information leans me more toward the herbicide idea, admittedly this was my strongest idea anyway. I remember many more weeds and grasses along the tributaries and rivers pre wide spread herbicide than what I see today.

Last edited by Andrew Eastwood; 01/18/21 04:41 PM.
Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: Bruce T] #7143117
01/18/21 04:44 PM
01/18/21 04:44 PM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,922
east central WI
D
Dirty D Offline
trapper
Dirty D  Offline
trapper
D

Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,922
east central WI
Originally Posted by Bruce T

I won't fish where it is catch and release.


good, less crowds and more fish for me.

Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: Andrew Eastwood] #7143131
01/18/21 04:52 PM
01/18/21 04:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Bruce T Offline
trapper
Bruce T  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Originally Posted by Andrew Eastwood
Thank you Bruce. We just recently got them (otter), but it correlated with the timing of no till farming and river changes. If you have always had them and still had the changes, that would lead me to think the otter did not change anything. This information leans me more toward the herbicide idea, admittedly this was my strongest idea anyway. I remember many more weeds and grasses along the tributaries and rivers pre wide spread herbicide than what I see today.

All that grass is the key to large populations of muskrats.


Nevada bound
Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: Dirty D] #7143133
01/18/21 04:54 PM
01/18/21 04:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Bruce T Offline
trapper
Bruce T  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Originally Posted by Dirty D
Originally Posted by Bruce T

I won't fish where it is catch and release.


good, less crowds and more fish for me.


Enjoy.I'm fishing somewheres where I can catch something to eat.


Nevada bound
Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: hippie] #7143136
01/18/21 04:55 PM
01/18/21 04:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,446
Tug Hill, NY
S
Squash Offline
trapper
Squash  Offline
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S

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 2,446
Tug Hill, NY
Here in northern NY some of our rivers are turning from blue to white, it’s called winter.

Last edited by Squash; 01/18/21 04:55 PM.
Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: Squash] #7143140
01/18/21 04:55 PM
01/18/21 04:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Bruce T Offline
trapper
Bruce T  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 41,592
Northern Maine
Originally Posted by Squash
Here in northern NY some of our rivers are turning from blue to white, it’s called winter.

laugh


Nevada bound
Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: SNIPERBBB] #7143212
01/18/21 05:33 PM
01/18/21 05:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 131
PA
4
41cal Offline
trapper
41cal  Offline
trapper
4

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 131
PA
Originally Posted by SNIPERB🦝
There was an article out recently about a researcher saying that better water quality hurt muskrats.


this one? https://www.timesleader.com/sports/674760/is-cleaner-water-to-blame-for-fewer-muskrats

Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: hippie] #7143235
01/18/21 05:42 PM
01/18/21 05:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 131
PA
4
41cal Offline
trapper
41cal  Offline
trapper
4

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 131
PA
Here is a penn state study. One biologist captured some rats and implanted transmitters so that they
could track the muskrats.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200608114658.htm

Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: 41cal] #7143610
01/18/21 08:24 PM
01/18/21 08:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,293
East-Central Wisconsin
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bblwi Offline
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bblwi  Offline
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B

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,293
East-Central Wisconsin
If rivers are turning green rather than more blue it shows probability of more algae, which means the nutrients are there but other vegetation that would use those nutrients is not utilizing those nutrients. Does it reflect less vegetation or more nutrients. We also have to understand that the river water may be running a bit warmer then in the past which would allow the algae longer growing seasons (warm season algae) both earlier and later.

As to rats and rivers, to me that may well be an issue but from my experience there are far more rats in marshes and swamps then in rivers and these areas are nutrient sinks so if those areas stay wet there will be rats.
This year we have rat huts in places we have not had huts in in 20 years. Rat numbers here have really increased with the last 2-3 years of more water. So far many places can't be trapped due to poor ice and that means the rats are not being frozen out either. When we get dry again we will have a big reduction in rat numbers.

When we are working at cleaning up rivers and lakes we need to understand the magnitude of the order at hand. It takes 30 parts of P to grow almost any common crop and most ground has 2-3 times that much P. It only takes about 3-5 parts of P to get full growth in water so we need to understand that reducing runoff is critical but we also need to understand to lower the growth in water substantially we need huge reductions in runoff from soil
.
Bryce

Re: U.S. rivers changing color [Re: Bruce T] #7143761
01/18/21 09:12 PM
01/18/21 09:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,238
The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane Offline
"HOSS"
Leftlane  Offline
"HOSS"

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,238
The Hill Country of Texas
Originally Posted by Bruce T
Originally Posted by 330-Trapper
Only if it changed what grows there.

It sure did here.Muskrats needs are food and cover.


They do now anyway, when I was 16 years old any pond in a pasture with a few cat tails held rats and lots of them. Most of these didn't have a tree w/i a 1/4 mile but there were rats by the 5 gal bucket load- they only time they had cover was when they dove under which they did when they would notice you fishing or setting traps. This was after DDT had softened up all the birds of prey eggs.

I am not trying to Shanghai the original post but the only thing thing I see different in these exact same ponds is that there are birds of prey everywhere and not a single rat.


“What’s good for me may not be good for the weak minded.”
Captain Gus McCrae- Texas Rangers


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