He sure makes it sound encouraging!!!

Mark is a straight shooter(and a Trapper).

Dollar losing value will make prices higher along with a very short harvest with maybe coyotes being the exception. If rumors are true it will be interesting to see the results of Groneys auction in China on finished goods. I think prices will advance except for coon which will take a few years or more.

Why would all these so called buyers be calling and asking about fur. When It's already available through buyers like groney
Groney has probably bought more fur then FHA will be selling at auction In April. And I'm told Webkie Is the biggest buyer of coyotes In the USA.

I hope things go well but I can't see a price Increase on fur for this selling season. And If the borders are still closed that won't help.

First time in quite a while the pluses have the minuses outnumbered. Anything can happen in the fur market, as Downey points out it’s just a matter of who benefits. Or who is holding the goods.

smoke and mirrors, if that many buyers are calling why don't they sell all the fur they are holding?

Won't be hard to hold to stronger valuations when they just sold my product for the lowest price in 30 years. A furbuyer here tried that "I'm a Trapper" nonsense with me. He tried to con me into trapping beaver for him. Said how much he was paying more than the other bad prices. I told him since you are" a Trapper" and this is such a good deal you should jump on it.

Kinda defeats the auction purpose of competitive action to stimulate growth.

I'm thankful they are trying. If we don't have an auction option for us trappers , that would be bad news.

.... they sold next to nothing at the last auction they held and cancelled the next that was coming up.....action means more than words

Well It sounds like the borders will still be closed so how can you have a competitive auction. I was going to spend 1000s of dollars I would want to SEE what I was bidding on.

Groney Is offering already dressed fur. If I was buying fur that's where I'd be spending my money.

Plus, since you guys give it to him, he should be able to sell it pretty cheap.

It sounds like he’s trying to get shipments in so they can have something to sell and maintain employment.

I like his comment about the pandemic is nearing the end!!!! Really with two mutant strings spreading rapidly.

I hope he’s correct but I don’t see the market changing for a long time.


B

Supply is off. Demand is the dark horse. With the exception of coon.

From reports,Sojuzpushnina sale was up 30%.
Looking good for the auctions,Still lower than a couple years ago but moving in the right direction.

Maybe there is a reason they don't do this, but instead of sitting around waiting for the Canadian government to let you run your business, move your sale a few hundred miles south into a country that will allow international travel. Bring the samples, ship the rest from Canada. AKA what they were doing in Helsinki.

Why not start your own auction house down there?
Too many Anti fur in the States.

great ideal boco i think i will do that when i get my money from NAFA...the western state auctions sales in usa have out preformed auction house as of late by far.

Back in the day when Seattle Fur Exchange was in business, FHA partnered with them to have wild fur auctions in conjunction with the ranch mink auctions. Seemed to work out good for every one.

I know it was easier for me to go to Seattle (6 hour drive) than to go to North Bay (full day of travel going there).

Not sure where FHA would find a facility in the US that would accommodate them.

penny anti .
Read what Mark wrote again-there is a reason FHA is still going when many have folded,or come and gone like a flash in the pan.

Stoughton Business park.

I also seem to remember NAFA had sale in NY back in the late 90's, maybe?

....dont speak to soon that could change quickly....lol

The part where he was admitting Groeny was kickin his arse?

Never seen Mark write that.
He did say that the carpetbaggers were trying to take advantage of the trappers though when Nafa folded.
You have to understand the History behind FHA to know why they exist-the support they have in Ontario and why they are so strong and solid financially even in fur market downturn.

Dirt - yup, NAFA had sales in New Jersey, in the late 80s or early 90s. Back then they had a presence in New York City. In the once big “fur district”.

Lots of things have changed since the first time I attended a Hudson Bay Company/NAFA Sale.

BOCO,

Don't feed the troll !!! LOL !!!

w

The two upcoming auctions are being held in conjunction with American Mink exchange. Checked out the website and seems like an interesting group that is still owned in North America after NAFA and their umbrella of mink farms got sold overseas.

This has to be killing Mark Downey, the only auction left in North America that is internationally known and they cannot hold an in person auction. We can all argue who, how, where to sell but we all know that there is some truth in what the auction houses say, about them giving trappers an honest look at the market. Just costs us 11% commission to find it every auction!

Three or four state auctions need to get together and start something, we need more than one auction house in North America.

Unless I missed something I dont understand the negative towards a company that's trying to bring value into the wild fur market and is taking the time to communicate with us trappers as to whats going on. If you prefer to do business with someone else I understand but why the negative towards FHA? The trapping industry benefits from there existence.

Because its Canadian.

Best statement on this thread^^^&&

I suggested they try something, instead waiting on the Canadian government. They told me buyers won't buy my product without seeing them. They need to figure out how to get buyers ( not agents) to a sale. A lot of these buyers are former NAFA buyers, they seem to be cautious in the switch. Smart ! IMHO.

If they are trying so hard to communicate, why are they sending checks without telling the shippers what sold and at what price????

exactly!!!

Just once I would like to hear the Auction house tell It like It Is.

The fur market at this time Is In the crapper. But we are tying to do the best we can for our shippers.

Do the same buyers that buy at these country auctions also buy from Let's say FHA? If so and they are buying rats at a $3.00 average from these country auctions why would they pay more at FHA.

Country trapper sales and international fur auctions - basically 2 completely different buyer groups.

Years ago, the trapper sales in Oregon had an international buyer attend a sale on occasion. They didn’t like the way the sale was run and bought very little.

International auctions - graded lots

Country trapper sales - trapper lots.

That is the BIG difference. And it is an important difference!! Each way works for the intended buyer group. Don’t fix what isn’t broke.!!

Thanks for explaining the difference.

But If you can't cross the border you can't see the graded product you probably aren't going to buy. Would you buy any quantity of fur sight unseen?

Depending on the species and grade and price, yes I would buy sight unseen. Here are some examples.

Badger - IIIs and IVs
Ermine - any grade
Skunks - first lot in any size
Otter - IIIs and IVs
Black beaver - first bundle in each size
Bears - anything that sells for under $60.00

to name a few. I’m sure there are others. I know those aren’t the better grades but that is still fur being sold without seeing it.

At the April 2020 sale, FHA had pictures posted on line for the buyer to see. Better goods in most species. All the goods in speciality items like wolverine and white fox. Pictures don’t show everything but along with the catalog description, it works for some buyers.

Last year at this time nobody could have predicted the situation this pandemic would put FHA in. I agree Beav that nobody in their right mind would pull the trigger and spend thousands on fur that they can't even see. That's putting a lot of trust in the graders of a company. All that said, I sure hope FHA can hang in there. We need more than one buyer in North America and right now there only appears to be two for the majority of trappers. What happens if FHA folds? Groney gets to run the show. Has anyone watched some of the videos Groney posts on FB? After gas, equipment costs, and time in the fur shed, people are literally paying him to take their fur for $4 averages on coon, $10 averages on coyotes, $2 averages on rats, $8 averages on otters, and $2 for skunks. It's a shame. I'm always amazed that people don't pull their fur. So what if FHA folds? Now Groney can cut those prices in half and guys have no choice but to start their own small fur business or niche markets or dump fur to him for pennies. This really puts a squeeze on the weekend warrior trapper and young trappers that may not put up enough fur each year to justify shipping and commission costs with FHA. We need more buyers. The few country buyers that are left are fighting tooth and nail to hang in there to prevent a monopoly on the fur market.

Canada has lost fur buying firms just like we have. One now not so long ago 8 major firms and plenty of smaller out lets I am sure. I do give the FHA and its former organizers credit for staying the course and being willing to offer options and outlets for wild fur harvesters. We are fortunate in the Mid West to have two major private firms that deal with a lot of fur annually and having a viable FHA international firm collecting fur in our area is a benefit as well. We do have a few other firms that we can utilize as well. When, and if we see a fur demand increase in species we have here, coon, rats, beavers, reds and marginal yotes then having the international auction will be a good thing. I constantly read where many suspect and actually don't believe what the auction houses state or how they grade etc. I feel that those remarks are not always and in most cases rarely justified. It is good you like your markets and the prices you receive without much explanation or discussion. I sold most fur locally this season and to me it was a good option. I have fur to sell at the auction in April. The one thing I valued the most about the auctions were learning a lot more about grading, color, how damage was assessed and to some extent what was creating the damage, me or other causes. We all talk about selling fully prime and full value fur, but when one reviews the accounts and records one finds that nationwide very little fur is ever sold at prime or full value, at least wild fur. How much and to what extent one gets docked for lower grades, damage, size and color usually determines for me where the better averages come from.

Bryce

Nothing wrong with that.

What are coon mink n rat n beaver from Midwest area that finish bring locally? Have mine to market it, maybe should ship FHA an take out small loan as use extra cash an pay interest, might anyhow as got file taxes up come by end march an doubt can have 2 payment plans on state taxes an owe on UI benifits from $600 stimouls last summer for couple months, the fed u can ad on to existing plan but not state, blew wad cash on pickup an had trapping an stuff , take hit in check acct , gas prices steadily riding here just lately again

Hey coonman,there is a job available for you making traps in a factory in Minnesota.
The guy posted he cant find workers to work in his plant.

GFW is having an auction in China this spring. This was confirmed to me by Gary today on the phone. Why would anyone buy anything in a country that has their borders locked down. Also FHA sold a BUNCH of my coon, all my coyotes and rats for little of nothing this last month. I bet they will be sold at auction in China if I were to guess. If they were interested in actually selling fur at the same valuations they had for the auction they would not have given them away at PT last month. Not buying it. LLL

How much more could Groenwold pay the trapper if he wasn't using FHA as a middle man??

Yup, out with the old, cheap cheap. In with the new. Boy do we have a deal for you.

X2 on this, if Groney is the last means of selling wildfur, get used to getting a lot less than you would at auction, on a continuing and forever basis. Having as many options open to market a product is healthy for the business. Without an open auction how do you know if there is a market or for how much when things pickup, as they appear to be doing in Russia at Soyjuzpushnina's AUCTION with Sables this week.

Sojuzpushnina

Auction Season Offer Sales results

2020-2021
Joint auction 215 May 2021 – –
Joint auction 214 February 2021 Download "Rumor"
Joint auction 213 December 2020 Download Download

[/quote]
X2 on this, if Groney is the last means of selling wildfur, get used to getting a lot less than you would at auction, on a continuing and forever basis. Having as many options open to market a product is healthy for the business. Without an open auction how do you know if there is a market or for how much when things pickup, as they appear to be doing in Russia at Soyjuzpushnina's AUCTION with Sables this week. [/quote]

Not sure they are not working together. LLL

The sale continues tomorrow with the second section Sables being offered in the am. Results will be printed to registered buyers and brokers immediately after the sale.

Someone can read between the lines....Thanks Monster Toms
near the end of the reply from Mark, he actually seems to apologize or this mistake.
TrapperRon (Member here) has been a sour in his side for a long time he does not say the other persons name that brought GFW into Canada
so they are short some western coyotes this year.....I wonder why !
This press release should have been done 2 months ago, it was western coyotes that greased the door last year.....and they don't have any this years
so they have sour grapes.

LLL
How did you get a breakdown of what sold last month?

I called up to the office in Canada. The check they sent was not for anything they had sold last month but was from the pt after the last sale. They sold a lot more last month she said. LLL

Agreed. I think trappers have been shooting themselves in the foot. I've heard it stated on here "sell local in a down market, ship when the market is hot". Could just be that continuing to sell local may insure a down market. Groney makes good money buying and selling cheap fur.

Why? A place in the states that could logistically handle their efforts or a place receptive to them...? I suspect if this situation was on my governor's radar screen, South Dakota government wouldn't have a problem trying to accommodate FHA. The again, if Sleepy Joe bans international travel or attempts inter-state travel bans, it could make things more complex...

It seems like they could save a lot of phone call by just updating our accounts.

Well that would be too logical a solution to follow.
But for the 4000 cheques mailed out lets let the girls in the front desk answer 5000 calls
ever wonder what EASTERN ARROGANCE looks like

they dont wont you to know untill after you ship more fur to them for the next give away!

There's your answer.

Hogwash.

More hogwash.

And we hear from the Canadian mouth piece. LOL

What about your(and that other ejits) big mouth bashing Our auction house?
As an Ontario trapper I am closely affiliated with our auction house and elect a local director to the board and will call out your BS.

Nope! Ted Pappas told me about it.

......thats the same thing you told me about NAFA when you was defending them lol they are the way of the future you said!!!!!

If you knew anything about the auction houses you would know that NAFA was run by ranchers(and went down with them).
FHA has always been run by trappers.
And I told you C+T was the future.=Groeny knows it too.
I been selling fur in North bay for 49 years-you are wet behind the ears boy.

Ted told me it looked like this^^^^^^^^

......thats better than empty between the ears!!! lol after 49 years you would think you would know better!

I believe this is as close as you get. There has never been a time I have been sent a check from any auction house without an invoice. They update my account almost instantly during a sale. Why would they have chose not to this time? If you do not have questions then you are probably lacking something between your ears. LLL

Wow! Way too many negative Nellies out their. If you do not like where you are selling your fur than go elsewhere. That is always your option. People do not need to bash FHA, Groenwolds, or any other person trying to run a business. They are doing the best they can in these trying times.

X2

X3

I don’t understand why so many complain about the auction house trying to move fur. There are other options south of the border. America first right?

Personally, we know what our western heavy yotes will get us from a buyer. What I dislike is that FHA has made pickup dates in April mere days before the auction making it impossible for us to guage what to expect for prices there. I’d like to see my 17 yr old get the best $ he can for his hard work and the April delivery date for the next auction keeps trappers in the dark.

How much fur did you send up north to have them pt? I sent a lot for them to auction off. If you did send it then by all means I hope you did well. It is an auction house not a broker for other fur companies. LLL

I will add that they have never done "business" like this in the past. If you sell something are you not due a notice of what and how much before you decide to ship more? I bet none of you have ever got screwed by an auction house before like some of us have.(SHAFTA) LLL

Good morning read is it not Crosspatch
come two months from now when the accounts do get updated and we can see through this smoke screen they have put out

few people remember the PT sales with the muskrats back when the prices started to rise.
There must be quite an outstanding trapper in North Bay to catch 100,000 and then send them to Toronto is the point I don't understand.

Finally capitulation
Groeny is the Warren Buffett of the fur trade.

I have sent plenty of fur to the large auction houses for thirty years. I would say I have been very satisfied for 28 years. I was upset back in 88' or 89' when North Bay had it's issues and a few years ago when NAFA went down. All of my fur sold that year for a satisfactory amount, but my last check for 4 blanket beaver bounced.

Finally capitulation
Groeny is the Warren Buffett of the fur trade. [/quote]


Isn’t that the truth eh

Blood in the streets!!

The interesting thing is Warren Buffett has underperformed the markets, the last 10 years. Fact.

Or the Walmart of the fur trade. Buy cheap, high volume, low margin, sell below competator prices, eliminate competition, control market.

I sent coon last year because there was not many options, Wiebke wasn't interested, Groney after hearing prices, I wasn't interested. I rolled the dice. We all decide what to do with our fur, you want to know who is responsible? Look in the mirror.

Exactly!

X3

What I find interesting is guys submit at the wagon window, convince themselves “dun good”.

Ship, goods move PT and whine like a 4 year old girl. How much worse could it b?

What kinda prices on what section coon are the private treaty sales bringing ? Are they sell mink much ?

Since the accounts are up dated on a computer it can be done anywhere. So saying the Rona is the cause does not float. Is there a reason why they don't up date peoples account? I guess they can do what ever they want, but I don't think they are helping themselves, by stalling and not letting people know what sold and at what levels. I would think that as stuff sells it has to loaded into a computer, so why not do it once and have everyone's account update. It's very poor business as I see it. I guess I can not see a reason for it.

Groney treated me pretty good on my rats and coyotes. I was just a few cents off of a $4.00 average on my rats and my WI coyotes averaged $30.00 I don't see me getting that kind of money from the auction this selling season. And you have to figure In your commission and a per pelt shipping charge.
I hope the auction goes well for those who have fur at FHA.

NAFA treated me good and I instantly knew what my fur sold for when the hammer dropped. It's to bad things went south for them. But It Is what It Is.

Well Nimzy are you sending all your rats to FHA?

You do realize that FHA is slowly being infiltrated by the ranch mink industry don’t you?

I should call up there and have Cheryl tell me how much wild fur I have left there. But it would be a lot easier if they would of just updated the accounts, of course. From last check I had a bunch of wild fur plus ranch fox sitting there and now will have thousands of ranch mink running through the facility. I hope there facilities can handle a large group of buyers when they do open up.

In my opinion, FHA should of held the April auction at a nafa facility in Wisconsin. It wouldn’t be the first time an auction moved do to a pandemic.

If that don't bankrupt them, nothing will.

I don't think the NAFA facility Is available. I know they sold the new facility to Second Harvest.

I remember a guy named uh I think Mark Downey who moved uh fur auction to Seattle due to the uh a sars problem in uh 2003.

I am not in the least concerned that I got a FHA check with little explanation. Since I have dealt with FHA for a long time I am familiar with how they do things. Private treaty sales are accounted for after the next auction. This year the different thing was they decided to get that money in trappers' pockets before the next auction. At least that's what they said and I have no reason to doubt them.

After April when accounts are updated i will find out what sold private treaty. I can wait.

I got a check for a little over $100, and I have 350 or so coon. Hope they didn't sell them all.

This is what has always been scuzzy to me!

Thanks for this BP

FHA has always had a rancher on their board of directors.

FHA will never move to the States,the FN directors would never allow that to happen.
They may partner globally from time to time when its to their advantage to sell fur.
The States,at least under Trump was not a place the world wanted to do buisness because of his protectionist policys.
That may change for you under the Biden admin. .

Boco, I'm not suggesting they move the business to the States. I'm suggesting they have a sale (at least this year) where buyers can attend ( or will ) like they have done in the past.


This IMHO would benefit FHA, Buyers, and shippers.

When something isn't logical, back up and look closer.

,That is what I was thinking. Sam Walton

Under the biden administration we will be lucky to be able to trap.

GROENY ROCKS !!!!!

walleyed

Walton Yes. Likely a better analogy

The idea of having a sale some where (in the US maybe) where buyers can attend in person sounds like a good idea but there are two problems - people and paperwork. Let me explain,

People - the FHA staff will have to travel to where ever the sale is held. Afterward they have to go back to Canada. With the Canadian borders closed, how do they do that? Quarantine for two weeks? Even with computer access in quarantine, there are some things that have to be done in person at their building.

Paperwork - FHA sells wild fur pelts, which are highly regulated. They can’t just load up the samples in a truck and drive across the border. Both Canadian and USF&W have to issue permits and inspect the goods going both ways. I remember watching them load the truck in Seattle to send goods back to North Bay after a sale. Everything was checked off as the pelts were loaded. When the truck was loaded, it was locked and sealed. Truck could not be opened until the seal was broken in North Bay by Canadian officials.

Keep in mind that it took the Canadian government over 2 months to issue CITES permits for goods that buyers bought at the August sale. The goods were packed and ready to go by late September. Permits were applied for. Permits were issued the end of November or the first part of December. Can you imagine the hassle of doing the paperwork to move the samples back and forth.

Even if they didn’t offer CITES goods - otter, bears, wolves, bobcat and Canadian lynx - there is still paperwork involved.

Based on the above information, it is my opinion that having a sale in the US isn’t practical.

I’m sure some of you - especially Dirt - will want to disagree, so go ahead, feel free to tell me why I’m wrong. I look forward to the “discussion”. It is snowing here, I have nothing better to do!!

So what you are saying is they have done this before. Good, then they should good at it.

Starting to sound like a half ...ed operation.

I sold through them once and wasn't impressed, but I wouldn't like to see them go away. The more the merrier!

Yes, they’ve done it before. Multiple times to Seattle. Multiple times to Helsinki.

But ALL of those times were under “normal” conditions. With all this COVID stuff happening, these aren’t “normal” conditions. Not even close to “normal”.

I doubt you read, let alone understood, my entire post. Just saying........

Groeny appears to be getting things done in Canada during these difficult times Just Saying..........

FHA is not a fur buyer-didnt you read Marks letter?They were formed by trappers for trappers because trappers were tired of getting ripped off by all the crooked buyers.

So Is the Cambridge WI FHA location the main shipping facility to move fur to Canada?
So when Greg Is shipping fur to Canada does he have all these government agents counting and sealing all the fur? Can't be that big of a deal If their busy and shipping once or twice a month.
Maybe It's more of a chore to ship It back out of Canada.

The same buyers are still buying that fur through the auction house and are probably still ripping off the trapper. And the auction house is getting their cut, LOL

"American Mink Exchange is a family owned business, operated by the Tax family, a family with roots firmly planted in the fur trade. Located in New York's garment district, "

Maybe their U.S. partners can lend a hand?

What’s funny is that some in the Tax family I believe broker wild fur too.

More years past often selling at the auction house-taking from the trappers in the process. They buy the junk there at the auction,saves the auction from having to burn it.

I get what you are saying WissMiss. Maybe a sale in the US isn’t practical. But I still think it could be done.

Non-CITES goods - Raccoon, beaver, muskrats, coyotes, etc - move much more easily between countries. There is still paperwork to do, but they don’t have to double check CITES tag numbers.

If you were able to look at the actual paperwork in Cambridge, I think you would fine they make 1, maybe 2, shipments of CITES goods, just before the auction. By sending all the bobcats and otter at once. It cuts down on the paperwork.

Having the depot in Cambridge, also can speed up getting non-CITES goods back into the US. Greg sends a truck load of raccoon to North .bay. That truck brings a load of beaver back for whatever US buyer bought them. Efficient and inexpensive.

Makes sense.