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Correct me please ! #7263133
05/12/21 07:03 PM
05/12/21 07:03 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline OP
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline OP
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
Am I just dreaming or would it be possible to have big things that matter , like pipe lines, water companys, the electric grid and more on closed systems. Why couldn't they do that with fiber optics any where in the U.S. and if a leak happened maybe it would be easier to find and fix. Surely it would be a long term investment and wouldn't cost as much as shutting the country down. Seriously asking. Just hope our entire defense system is set up differently than what we are seeing with the pipe lines, but now I'm wondering.

We are sitting ducks with our energy and defense all tied to a satellite or tower we are sharing with the rest of the world. But what do I know, I push the button on my puter and some how I connect .

Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263136
05/12/21 07:08 PM
05/12/21 07:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,241
The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane Offline
"HOSS"
Leftlane  Offline
"HOSS"

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,241
The Hill Country of Texas
If we keep electing enemies I wouldn't get too hopeful


“What’s good for me may not be good for the weak minded.”
Captain Gus McCrae- Texas Rangers


Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Leftlane] #7263141
05/12/21 07:14 PM
05/12/21 07:14 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline OP
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline OP
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
Originally Posted by Leftlane
If we keep electing enemies I wouldn't get too hopeful


I'm not fully sure the people holding the country hostage for ransom was elected, unless maybe this is some how tied to putting us all in cars that runs on a rubber band.

Last edited by Foxpaw; 05/12/21 07:15 PM.
Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263144
05/12/21 07:18 PM
05/12/21 07:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,761
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
trapper
Law Dog  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,761
Central, SD
Facts are out the window feeling have taken it’s place, no forward thinking or problem solving allowed. Victims get paid making yourself one is in fashion now.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263266
05/12/21 09:51 PM
05/12/21 09:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 5,214
Crivitz WI
Sprung & Rusty Offline
trapper
Sprung & Rusty  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 5,214
Crivitz WI
Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Am I just dreaming or would it be possible to have big things that matter , like pipe lines, water companys, the electric grid and more on closed systems. Why couldn't they do that with fiber optics any where in the U.S. and if a leak happened maybe it would be easier to find and fix. Surely it would be a long term investment and wouldn't cost as much as shutting the country down. Seriously asking. Just hope our entire defense system is set up differently than what we are seeing with the pipe lines, but now I'm wondering.

We are sitting ducks with our energy and defense all tied to a satellite or tower we are sharing with the rest of the world. But what do I know, I push the button on my puter and some how I connect .

This problem isn't really a problem, it's politics creating it on purpose.


No Jab.
Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263307
05/12/21 10:38 PM
05/12/21 10:38 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 917
Ontario, Canada
S
sweetwilliam Offline
trapper
sweetwilliam  Offline
trapper
S

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 917
Ontario, Canada
you totally missed the point they want you to depend on the supply but they don't have control over it because it is in the hands the stock market in private companies.

Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263311
05/12/21 10:39 PM
05/12/21 10:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 4,927
Aliceville, Kansas 43
Yukon John Offline
trapper
Yukon John  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 4,927
Aliceville, Kansas 43
Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Am I just dreaming or would it be possible to have big things that matter , like pipe lines, water companys, the electric grid and more on closed systems. Why couldn't they do that with fiber optics any where in the U.S. and if a leak happened maybe it would be easier to find and fix. Surely it would be a long term investment and wouldn't cost as much as shutting the country down. Seriously asking. Just hope our entire defense system is set up differently than what we are seeing with the pipe lines, but now I'm wondering.

We are sitting ducks with our energy and defense all tied to a satellite or tower we are sharing with the rest of the world. But what do I know, I push the button on my puter and some how I connect .

Half of what you typed about got shut down with the new prez by exec ord! Ask your gov't, how to get us back into world domination, like we were...let's say, 6 months ago!


Act like a blank, get treated like a blank. Insert your own blank!
Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263384
05/13/21 05:59 AM
05/13/21 05:59 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline OP
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline OP
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
While I'm not naive enough to believe that the present systems in place that needs fixing was put in place only a few months ago. When things change hands in the open business world things need to be fixed so someone can't sabotage the vehicle in use, whether enemy or just stupid help or accident. Sort of like having a pan of hot grease on a stove needs precaution against a kid pulling it on their head.

I do agree the present administrations disdain for the keystone pipe line when coming out of the starting gate doesn't raise my confidence in the willingness to fix anything.

Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263394
05/13/21 06:27 AM
05/13/21 06:27 AM

M
Mark June
Unregistered
Mark June
Unregistered
M



I'm not sure how to answer your Q Foxpaw, but I found half the big rigs in America. There is suddenly more and more - a solid line of 18 wheelers for hundreds of miles - headed south on I-35 to Laredo, Texas and then into Mexico to pick up freight I guess. The trains and trains and trains of shipping containers now coming up from Mexico on the rails leading north are rolling, rolling, rolling. I mean it's pouring in!

I thought we bought everything from China? I guess it's now Mexico?

We are a country more and more built on technology and the service sector. The manufactured goods we source out more and more.
It would seem that would lead to opportunities for bad actors to inject themselves into the production chain of the things we no longer make down the street, but rather bring in from around the world.
We'll see how it goes. Maybe it's awesome. Maybe it's opportunities for bad guys.

Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263407
05/13/21 06:59 AM
05/13/21 06:59 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,922
2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
Blaine County Offline
trapper
Blaine County  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,922
2A Sanctuaries-W. OK & N. NM
Originally Posted by Foxpaw
Am I just dreaming or would it be possible to have big things that matter , like pipe lines, water companys, the electric grid and more on closed systems. Why couldn't they do that with fiber optics any where in the U.S. and if a leak happened maybe it would be easier to find and fix. Surely it would be a long term investment and wouldn't cost as much as shutting the country down. Seriously asking. Just hope our entire defense system is set up differently than what we are seeing with the pipe lines, but now I'm wondering.

We are sitting ducks with our energy and defense all tied to a satellite or tower we are sharing with the rest of the world. But what do I know, I push the button on my puter and some how I connect .


Yes. Anything is possible. It's just a matter of priorities. I don't know how to stop a hacker but I would hope we have people that do.

Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263412
05/13/21 07:19 AM
05/13/21 07:19 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,497
Southern NJ
maintenanceguy Offline
trapper
maintenanceguy  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,497
Southern NJ
Building a local computer network that is "air gapped" is done all the time. Where I work, there is an accounting system that is air gapped from the rest of the internet.

It's also possible to purchase or lease fiber from anywhere to anywhere else that's not connected to the rest of the internet. This is usually called "dark fiber" since you just lease the cable and you "light" it yourself with your own equipment on each end. This lets your office in Chicago connect to your office in Dallas without any connections to the rest of the internet. Dark fiber is expensive.

The reason it's so rarely done is that it's inconvenient to do. There are services that provide automatic backups an they are available across the internet and they're much simpler (and probably better) than trying to do it yourself. If the plant manager needs to log onto a machine to fix something at 2:00am from home, he needs to connect across the internet. If your business sends email to anyone, it needs to be connected to the internet. etc, etc, etc.


-Ryan
Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263414
05/13/21 07:29 AM
05/13/21 07:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,550
Rodney,Ohio
SNIPERBBB Offline
trapper
SNIPERBBB  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,550
Rodney,Ohio
Any infrastructure really needs to be on private networks that are independent from the internet. With the chip shortages, amongst other things, I think we really need to dumbify vehicles and infrastructure where possible.

Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263415
05/13/21 07:32 AM
05/13/21 07:32 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline OP
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline OP
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
Yeah Mark. I got a taste of some of the craziness of how business works. I picked up a load of scrap paper in Boston and took it to Moss Point, Miss. Picked up big rolls of paper there and took to Laredo to go into Mexico, they said to be made into paper towels and tp to be sent back. I then picked up a load of jeans and brought back to Fort Smith. All the while there was gov regulation on everything I did or even thought about. We scream for gov regulation right down to the point of how many wild bull frog legs I can have in the freezer, lol.

What my point on the pipe line is that on things where the national well being is in danger including the electric grid and defense; those things shouldn't even be out in cyber space but should be in a closed system. From that point I'm lost with no knowledge how it works. I remember back when the Star War Defense came into being; it works great til the other guy gets it then we are just back to being even again. With the technology being so sophisticated we are getting all chiefs and no Indians to do the labor. The money is in getting new tech patents first and getting the whole country hooked on it like drugs. Point is, regardless how tempting it is to get into cyber space, it would be better to have some things in a closed system so the pretty jelly beans are still seen but only accessible by the store clerk.

Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263420
05/13/21 07:41 AM
05/13/21 07:41 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline OP
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline OP
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
Thanks Maintenanceguy and Sniperb for your thoughts that is getting me back to a little reality, lol.

Re: Correct me please ! [Re: ] #7263422
05/13/21 07:43 AM
05/13/21 07:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 17,458
Wheaton Ks
L
lee steinmeyer Offline
trapper
lee steinmeyer  Offline
trapper
L

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 17,458
Wheaton Ks
Originally Posted by Mark June
I'm not sure how to answer your Q Foxpaw, but I found half the big rigs in America. There is suddenly more and more - a solid line of 18 wheelers for hundreds of miles - headed south on I-35 to Laredo, Texas and then into Mexico to pick up freight I guess. The trains and trains and trains of shipping containers now coming up from Mexico on the rails leading north are rolling, rolling, rolling. I mean it's pouring in!

I thought we bought everything from China? I guess it's now Mexico?

We are a country more and more built on technology and the service sector. The manufactured goods we source out more and more.
It would seem that would lead to opportunities for bad actors to inject themselves into the production chain of the things we no longer make down the street, but rather bring in from around the world.
We'll see how it goes. Maybe it's awesome. Maybe it's opportunities for bad guys.


Mark, doesn't china own that canal across Panama now? Bet the frieght is getting to expensive by container , so they're trucking it from the shortest point, maybe. Just a guess, but while Mexico makes a lot of stuff, china is the puppet master. Get ready to talk chinese!


YOU CAN IGNORE REALITY, BUT YOU CANNOT IGNORE THE CONSEQUENCES OF IGNORING REALITY.

http://www.lptraplinesupply.com
Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263423
05/13/21 07:46 AM
05/13/21 07:46 AM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 539
IL
G
goatman Offline
trapper
goatman  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 539
IL
You're being played. If gas system is like the electric it can be manually shut off or turned on in a matter of hours unless structures are down and need repair. I was a lineman for 38 yrs. Computer to radio control can be overridden. Unqualified dispatch could factor in time down.

Re: Correct me please ! [Re: goatman] #7263433
05/13/21 08:00 AM
05/13/21 08:00 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
F
Foxpaw Offline OP
trapper
Foxpaw  Offline OP
trapper
F

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,492
Southern Illinois
Originally Posted by goatman
You're being played. If gas system is like the electric it can be manually shut off or turned on in a matter of hours unless structures are down and need repair. I was a lineman for 38 yrs. Computer to radio control can be overridden. Unqualified dispatch could factor in time down.


The thought entered my mind that maybe since the Keystone deal met resistance in a big way, then maybe its not such a bad deal for people to do without something for a week just to make them appreciate what they take for granted. People tend to think differently when its their car that won't run. Kinda like the old saying," its a recession when your neighbor is out of work, its a depression when I'm out of work"

Re: Correct me please ! [Re: Foxpaw] #7263467
05/13/21 09:06 AM
05/13/21 09:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 119
West Virginia
D
DugK Offline
trapper
DugK  Offline
trapper
D

Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 119
West Virginia
Everything is susceptible to malware attacks, even with air gaps and private networks. Lookup Stuxnet, brilliantly devious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet

Re: Correct me please ! [Re: goatman] #7263476
05/13/21 09:25 AM
05/13/21 09:25 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,497
Southern NJ
maintenanceguy Offline
trapper
maintenanceguy  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,497
Southern NJ
Originally Posted by goatman
You're being played. If gas system is like the electric it can be manually shut off or turned on in a matter of hours unless structures are down and need repair. I was a lineman for 38 yrs. Computer to radio control can be overridden. Unqualified dispatch could factor in time down.


Except that all of the variable frequency drives on the pumps are controlled second by second by the software. Valve positions change constantly based on the sensors for flow rate, temperature, pressure, etc. The ultrasonic flow rate sensors are monitored by the software.

Think of all the sensors and computer controlled components in your car today. O2 sensors, mass air flow sensors, knock sensors, hall effect crank shaft position sensors - all telling the computer how to set the frequency and dwell time of your fuel injectors, throttle position, spark timing, EGR valve position, and dozens more.

That engine could be run without a computer if somebody engineered work-arounds for all of those systems - and that's how we used to do it but engines aren't built that way anymore. Multiply that complexity by 100x in a 5,500 mile long gas pipeline.

Last edited by maintenanceguy; 05/13/21 09:26 AM.

-Ryan
Re: Correct me please ! [Re: DugK] #7263487
05/13/21 09:44 AM
05/13/21 09:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,550
Rodney,Ohio
SNIPERBBB Offline
trapper
SNIPERBBB  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,550
Rodney,Ohio
Originally Posted by DugK
Everything is susceptible to malware attacks, even with air gaps and private networks. Lookup Stuxnet, brilliantly devious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet

Anything that accepts outside signals or emovable media is hackable. Even Hardline private networks can be disrupted or even splices into with the right equipment and technical knowledge. Fiber optics is a bit trickier to splce with appreciable time till detection.

IT departments are finally realizing that they need to disable USB ports.

A group of guys can take down a substation down with the right guns and knew what to hit. It nearly happened once already.

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