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Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: James] #7279765
06/05/21 02:44 AM
06/05/21 02:44 AM
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WA
Vinke Offline
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Only read the "topic" because you are are in my egnore this idiots list....
But we are only saved by grace


Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: adam m] #7279770
06/05/21 03:46 AM
06/05/21 03:46 AM
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N. Carolina
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Originally Posted by adam m

The thieves on the cross with Jesus are a perfect example of what you are describing.

And it goes to show by believing and asking for forgiveness you too can be in Paradise like the thief on the right of Christ. James, get that heart straight. And when you do and come down south for your smallie flyfishing trip, we'll hook you up in a Church of Christ. While visiting there, dancing with rattlers in your left hand, copperheads in your right, taking shots of strychnine, we'll see how Faithful you really are!!!!


-------------------------------------
America First!!
Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: James] #7279771
06/05/21 03:54 AM
06/05/21 03:54 AM
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W NY
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My neighbor down the road is a Jehovah's witness and hes told me good works ARE what's going to get him into Heaven. Don't know much about the JW's, but seems to me by talking to him that their rendition of Heaven only allows a certain amount of people and he's trying to do enough good works to "bump" someone out of a spot.
I was raised in a Lutheran Church my faith is giving me salvation through Christ. Good deeds are what my parents taught me to do as a good human being, just part of your every day Life.


NYSTA, NTA, FTA, life member Catt.county trappers
Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: James] #7279786
06/05/21 05:57 AM
06/05/21 05:57 AM
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I just try to be a good human, I have learned being helpful and kind (good works) has always felt better than mean and hateful. My personal failure is my trigger, I like to think it's a hard pull to the mean angry me. Turning the other cheek is something I need to work on, perhaps.


your only allowed so many sunrises... I aim to see every one of them!
Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: James] #7279792
06/05/21 06:37 AM
06/05/21 06:37 AM
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Beatrice, NE
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The Bible teaches that we are saved by faith alone. Works don't save us. But it also teaches that faith without good works is dead, and that our good works result from our salvation. So, in other words, our good works are the result of, and the proof of, our salvation. If we claim to be saved but don't have good works, our salvation is dead. Our salvation brings forth good works, not the other way around.

Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: James] #7279804
06/05/21 07:16 AM
06/05/21 07:16 AM
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Texas
Mark June Offline
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Originally Posted by James
On another thread Loosegoose posted, "Christ is king, salvation comes through faith and not works, and we can all agree on that." I didn't want to derail that thread, so am starting this one.

Is LG right? I think not. I'm now an agnostic, but was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, and that's not what the Church teaches. Good works do count (but not without faith).

The salvation-through-faith-alone belief is a license to do anything. You can do anything at all, if you believe Christ died for your sins 2000 years ago.

I'm curious how many individuals believe in faith alone. Do you ignore good works? If not, what role do you believe good works in this life will have on your afterlife?


Jim



Dare I even wade into this James because your first sentence question inquiry is then spiced heavily with your doctrine on the second sentence?
If your desire is genuine, there's been 500 years (and more) of church history between the clarifications (95 Thesis - Protestant and Council of Trent - Roman Catholic) and it can be outlined quite clearly.
If your desire is to stay plopped upon your inaccurate theology, then I'd prefer not to wade in sir.

As an aside, Protestants and Roman Catholics worship the same God according to basic orthodoxy in the history of the Church. Cults and aberrant religions as they are called, do not.
That's a key because Protestants and RC's can start from a theology the cults and aberrations can not. Cults and aberrants worship a different God according to Apostolic teachings of the Catholic (Universal) Church commissioned beginning in Acts 2.

Blessings,
Mark


Dallas Theological Seminary
https://www.dts.edu
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Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: James] #7279817
06/05/21 07:37 AM
06/05/21 07:37 AM
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Beatrice, NE
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James, now that I think about your question more, I think I may have a better answer. You mentioned that the "salvation through faith alone" doctrine is a license to do anything. Paul teaches in Romans 5 and 6 the exact opposite, though. At the end of Romans 5 Paul talks about how where sin abounds, grace abounds more. Then at the beginning of Romans 6, Paul asks your question......should we keep on sinning, so that grace may increase? In our get words, is it okay to sin, even though we're saved through faith alone, since God's grace will just take care of our sin? He answers the question by saying "by no means!! We have died to sin,how can we continue in it any longer?" Meaning that we Christians were once slave to sin and it's forces, but we are set free from that through Christ's salvation. That's why our faith produces good works..... because we are longer slaves to sin. If we are not saved and are still slaves to sin, we won't have the good works to show for it. The salvation produces good works in us.

So no, "salvation in faith alone" isn't a license to do anything we want, rather "salvation in faith alone" is a license and a motivation to do good works.

As far as what role good works play in the afterlife.....the bible teaches that we will be rewarded and/or punished for our works here on earth, that we will have to give an answer for what we've done. But that's not what produces salvation.

Last edited by loosegoose; 06/05/21 07:39 AM.
Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: James] #7279875
06/05/21 09:16 AM
06/05/21 09:16 AM
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Southern Illinois
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Faith and repentance are joined twins. Without one the other will die. So which came first, many places says repent and believe. However if a lost person is in his seat and steps in the isle to go forward to the altar, its actually by faith he takes that first step to go repent of which is already in his heart.

However if you believe you are chosen from the beginning and constantly take short cuts, you will most likely end back up at the pig pen.

Another thing about works and particularly bad works is that people are inclined to hold what a kids parents did against them. That thought right there sets my teeth on edge and I don't have any, lol. Children are only responsible for their fathers sins if they do them.

As far as purgatory goes the Jews would place there dead parents in a place for 11 months and I think plus 1 day (been awhile since I studied this) and let the meat rot off the bones and they thought that had a cleansing effect for the soul. Each day and I think maybe more than once a day they they would go to the site and pray for the deceased the whole time the body was decomposing. Its popular thinking that this was for the living and was completing a grieving process. For parents it was an a more constant process than say for a cousin which they wouldn't pray as often. Then at the end of the 11 months (and I'm not studied up on Jewish months etc.) they would gather the bones and put them in a tomb with the other dead. It was a long process and when the follower told Jesus he would follow Him but first must bury his father, Jesus told him to let the dead bury there own dead.

I'm sure I don't remember every little tidbit here but just gives you an idea so you can get started for your own study.

Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: silkyplainscoyot] #7279885
06/05/21 09:30 AM
06/05/21 09:30 AM
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Northeast Oklahoma
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Originally Posted by silkyplainscoyot
The Bible says, "Faith without works is dead". You can't have one and not the other. They go hand in hand. People say they "believe" or "have faith" all the time, but by their works(actions) they aren't living as a true Christians, which isn't acceptable in God's eyes.

So if a person does good works, that's commendable, but God requires more than just good works to be looked upon favorably.


It's more difficult to put into words than one would imagine... The old saw "One hand washes the other" is about the simplest way to put it.

The Widow's Mite is another way to look at it too... Her contribution was insignificant compared to the amount of money the rich were giving... But her conviction to give all that she had showed where her heart was.

Conviction and faith come first. Good works are a natural byproduct of faithful conviction. If you're already someone who does good works then you've got the easy part down... The faith is the hard part. It takes a lot of faith to give up your worldly goods and place your well-being entirely in God's hands.

One is a product of the other and vice versa.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: Mike in A-town] #7279893
06/05/21 10:03 AM
06/05/21 10:03 AM
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adam m Online content
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Originally Posted by Mike in A-town
Originally Posted by silkyplainscoyot
The Bible says, "Faith without works is dead". You can't have one and not the other. They go hand in hand. People say they "believe" or "have faith" all the time, but by their works(actions) they aren't living as a true Christians, which isn't acceptable in God's eyes.

So if a person does good works, that's commendable, but God requires more than just good works to be looked upon favorably.


It's more difficult to put into words than one would imagine... The old saw "One hand washes the other" is about the simplest way to put it.

The Widow's Mite is another way to look at it too... Her contribution was insignificant compared to the amount of money the rich were giving... But her conviction to give all that she had showed where her heart was.

Conviction and faith come first. Good works are a natural byproduct of faithful conviction. If you're already someone who does good works then you've got the easy part down... The faith is the hard part. It takes a lot of faith to give up your worldly goods and place your well-being entirely in God's hands.

One is a product of the other and vice versa.

Mike

Mark, I see James' questioning every so often as one who is genuinely interested and is nearing salvation. I might have a biased opinion because that's how I was before salvation. I questioned and compared Catholicism to Christianity for years.
Well said.
The faith part can be extremely hard. Jook at how many examples Jesus gave us just in the Gospels of having faith, dying to self, giving up worldly goods, doing good works etc...

Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: James] #7279912
06/05/21 10:48 AM
06/05/21 10:48 AM
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We are saved by grace (free gift) through faith, and not of works.

Why not of works? Because we believe that everything necessary to accomplish our salvation was done in and through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, evidenced by His resurrection.

Once saved, now what? Romans 8 says we are being conformed to the image of His Son- Jesus Christ. What was the earthly pattern of His life? That of a servant- doing "good works" for others.

Ephesians 2:10- We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, unto good works, that we should walk in them. After salvation, we are his masterpiece, each of us sculpted and molded to His plan, to accomplish good works. "Good works" can only be determined and qualified by God Himself. If we do something, in order to gain something else, it is no longer a "good" work. This is why learning of Jesus' life shows us true agape love, and what manifests itself as a good work for the kingdom. "That we should walk in them" means it is a pattern of life, not an occasional highlight along the way.

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. What is the fruit that Identifies what kind of a tree it is? In a Christian's life, it is the evidence of good works, and according to this verse, it is the "zealous" pursuit of them.

Back to James- true faith is evidenced by good works. Faith without good works, is a dead faith.

Where does that put each of us in self examination?

Last edited by RKG; 06/05/21 10:49 AM.
Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: James] #7279932
06/05/21 11:26 AM
06/05/21 11:26 AM
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Flint Hills, KS
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I think it may be difficult to come to a consensus on a topic like this in this kind of venue for several reasons. The first being simply the number and diversity of the people conversing and their personal backgrounds. Two thousand years of church history also indicates a lack of complete agreement on these kinds of issues. The apostolic letters in the Bible itself should also expose the existence of disagreements within the church from the very beginning. That being said, one of Paulís main points in all of his letters is unity. We can be united in Christ even if we donít agree on every theologically debatable issue.

This brings me to another problem I have in attempting to adequately address this issue. With 2000 years of history and tradition yielding such a diversity of views and interpretations, Iím not convinced weíre all on the same page when it comes to the basic storyline, intention, or meaning of the Bible (here I guess Iím assuming that this would be our reference point). Itís like weíre trying to understand The Lord of the Rings by discussing its last chapter, or perhaps discussing the finer points of beaver trapping by examining a pair of well-made beaver mittens. The New Testament letters weíre discussing are themselves discussing the meaning and implications of a long, long story, the climax of which the authors believed had just happened. To understand what theyíre saying, we need to understand the story that they were discussing. The Bible is one epic story, and its climax is in the Gospels. So what is the whole story?

Weíre talking about faith and salvation, but what are those? What does faith mean? Do we mean the same thing that Paul or James did when we use it? What is salvation? Who is being saved? From what? Why? How? Many of you have mention being saved and going to heaven. What does that mean? What is heaven? The Hebrew word just means ďthe skiesĒ. Is going to the sky when I die an idea that is stated in the Bible? I could go on, but I wonít. Thereís no need to answer these questions here (please donít); just think about these things as you read or discuss the Bible. For those of you who really want to think about this stuff, I think the roots of all of these issues lie in Genesis. Read it a few times, but donít read it like a history textbook that is attempting to summarize historical events. Read it like a good work of literature that is attempting to explain the meaning of life and address the struggles of the human experience.

No need to bash James. Heís obviously good at starting conversations on topics you all want to discuss anyway. Why would anyone who is serious about being a Christian be upset about someone else wanting to talk about Christianity? We may not all agree about everything, but surely we can have a cordial conversation about the meaning of life, the world, and everything in it. Personally, I find questioning lifeís most difficult topics to be engaging and rewarding, and I think thatís a big part of what the Hebrew Bible is trying to do too. Like Wendell Berry said, ďask the questions that have no answers.Ē

Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: James] #7279985
06/05/21 12:58 PM
06/05/21 12:58 PM
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So it sounds many believe if you are horrible person but have faith you will get to heaven faster than a person who is really a good person here on earth but doesnít have faith. Didnít many of the mafia figures of yore that killed people have faith in God. I know several that donated large sums of money to the Catholic Church when I grew up in Pittsburgh. Terrorists have faith that their god exists but kill people.

Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #7279993
06/05/21 01:07 PM
06/05/21 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandpa Trapper
So it sounds many believe if you are horrible person but have faith you will get to heaven faster than a person who is really a good person here on earth but doesnít have faith. Didnít many of the mafia figures of yore that killed people have faith in God. I know several that donated large sums of money to the Catholic Church when I grew up in Pittsburgh. Terrorists have faith that their god exists but kill people.

You can buy off a church but you can't buy off God.

Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: Posco] #7280022
06/05/21 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Posco
Originally Posted by Grandpa Trapper
So it sounds many believe if you are horrible person but have faith you will get to heaven faster than a person who is really a good person here on earth but doesnít have faith. Didnít many of the mafia figures of yore that killed people have faith in God. I know several that donated large sums of money to the Catholic Church when I grew up in Pittsburgh. Terrorists have faith that their god exists but kill people.

You can buy off a church but you can't buy off God.

Exactly.
It's called atoning for your sins. Others crawl up stairs on their knees, others whip themselves.
Jesus paid our debt that we owe & very much so deserve.

Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: James] #7280034
06/05/21 02:03 PM
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Law Dog Online content
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Why play his game?
[Linked Image]
LOL


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: Grandpa Trapper] #7280036
06/05/21 02:06 PM
06/05/21 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandpa Trapper
So it sounds many believe if you are horrible person but have faith you will get to heaven faster than a person who is really a good person here on earth but doesnít have faith. Didnít many of the mafia figures of yore that killed people have faith in God. I know several that donated large sums of money to the Catholic Church when I grew up in Pittsburgh. Terrorists have faith that their god exists but kill people.

We are all sinful people in need of salvation. When you say " a really good person" your judging from a perspective of comparing one sinner to another, not the perspective of a perfect God. If all our sins, mistakes and evil thoughts were put on a screen for the world to see it might be a little more clear the need for a Savior

Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: Law Dog] #7280037
06/05/21 02:07 PM
06/05/21 02:07 PM
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Marion Kansas
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Originally Posted by Law Dog
Why play his game?
[Linked Image]
LOL

When I fish I'm happy to catch whichever fish might be biting that day.

Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: Yes sir] #7280039
06/05/21 02:12 PM
06/05/21 02:12 PM
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Central, SD
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Originally Posted by Yes sir
Originally Posted by Law Dog
Why play his game?
[Linked Image]
LOL

When I fish I'm happy to catch whichever fish might be biting that day.


Don't be the fish~ LOL


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Cristians: Do good works matter? [Re: James] #7280042
06/05/21 02:21 PM
06/05/21 02:21 PM
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Marion Kansas
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grin been there done that lol

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