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Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7300223
07/05/21 11:48 PM
07/05/21 11:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 27,900
Central, SD
Law Dog Online content OP
trapper
Law Dog  Online Content OP
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 27,900
Central, SD
I talked to my buddy in MO the other day he said he’s having trouble locating a coon dog down there, we talked earlier in the day about turkey numbers being low I said you think that’s related maybe. LOL He said ya he never thought about that less hunters/trappers more coon then.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Bigfoot] #7300335
07/06/21 08:01 AM
07/06/21 08:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 14,149
Wheaton Ks
L
lee steinmeyer Offline
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lee steinmeyer  Offline
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Posts: 14,149
Wheaton Ks
Originally Posted by Bigfoot
Wether its effective or not . You all are lucky to have a fish and game dept. that tries . They dont just throw their hands up and say theres to many nest raiders lets shorten the pheasant hunting season . I wish MDC had a bounty program . Not only does it remove some predators but it helps preserve and nurture the skills needed to remove predators . If the coon mrkt ever turns around maybe in another ten years or so they will have some young trappers that know how to stack up some fur . Its not like they are hiring some G man to do it they are asking the community to get involved and help protect the game animals they cherish , then are giving a little subsidy to help with the cost . I can't think of a better summer time endeavour for GRANDPA AND THE KID . IMO the benifit go way beyond removing a few predators .

Very good reply, Bigfoot!


Now officially an old fart
http://www.lptraplinesupply.com
Anything can happen when your trappin!
Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7300353
07/06/21 08:29 AM
07/06/21 08:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 27,900
Central, SD
Law Dog Online content OP
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Law Dog  Online Content OP
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Central, SD
Almost forgot we have a large number of pay hunt places that do ADC work in the summer months along with the places that raise the birds for them so put that all together to make a combined control effort across the state every year.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7300429
07/06/21 10:17 AM
07/06/21 10:17 AM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4,559
SW Georgia
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Wanna Be Offline
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Wanna Be  Offline
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Posts: 4,559
SW Georgia
I wish our WMA’s would implement something like that. Wouldn’t exactly cover the cost of trapping, but it would definitely help the turkeys and quail and fill up a tank gas every now and then. Our public land numbers are way down and predators on these places are high.

Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7300562
07/06/21 01:52 PM
07/06/21 01:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 27,900
Central, SD
Law Dog Online content OP
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Law Dog  Online Content OP
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Central, SD
Several farmers also do control work around here skunks, possums and coon trapping mostly to keep the nesting predators down. Most target species are around the home places making trapping them a lot easier then going looking for them. You might have 1-2 houses per square mile East River with less houses West River with the best habitat around the farm/ranch places for the vermin to go to, denning areas here are a premium.

I took 9 cages down to a couple landowners last month the first guy caught 10 coons, moved the cages over to the others place he got 6 coons and a possum the next week.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Rat_Pack] #7300568
07/06/21 02:02 PM
07/06/21 02:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 42,977
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline
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330-Trapper  Offline
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Posts: 42,977
Minnesota
Originally Posted by Rat_Pack
Never going to happen, but it'd be nice to have a bounty on all of the above here. Thinning out a few red-tailed hawks wouldn't hurt either

Turkey buzzards around here


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7300632
07/06/21 03:56 PM
07/06/21 03:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,513
South metro, MN
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Calvin Offline
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Calvin  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,513
South metro, MN
Is this why some on here buy beaver tails???????


B urn
L oot
M urder
Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7300648
07/06/21 04:25 PM
07/06/21 04:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 27,900
Central, SD
Law Dog Online content OP
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Law Dog  Online Content OP
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Central, SD
Nope some for tail oil some for leather I believe.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7301053
07/07/21 02:39 AM
07/07/21 02:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 243
Mi.In.
N
niteprowler Offline
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niteprowler  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 243
Mi.In.
NonPCfed. - I like that answer !

Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7301140
07/07/21 08:21 AM
07/07/21 08:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,280
ND
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MJM Offline
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ND
I would guess the program has little effect on the hatch rate of ground nesting birds. From what I saw working for Delta Waterfowl for eight years you really have to get aggressive trapping to make any difference. Delta considered it a success trapping if you raised the hatch rate on ducks 10% or more. You had to work pretty hard to get that done. Taking a few nest eaters just changes which one eats it and when. The biggest advantage a pheasant egg has is it hatches in 23 days compared to 28-30 on a duck. I am sure SD lost a pile of CRP a few years back and that is a big factor in ground nester success. Predators take way more nests in small grass than large grass areas. It is something Delta figured out and now have their trappers trapping small grass areas. Large grass areas have a higher hatch rate on their own than small grass areas. I would bet the SD program doesn't raise the hatch rated more than a couple percent. Trappers working for Delta run 100's of traps from 15 March-15 July and take 100's of nest eaters off a 36 Sq mile block and show little difference. Someone catching 20 isn't hurting, but its not doing much to help. People trapping for $10 tail don't put in the hours and effort needed to make much difference. I feel the lack of grass hurts the ground nester way more than the predators. I don't think the program as dropped the predator numbers as much as they are saying. When you factor all the road kills, ones land owners would take anyway. How many extra ones are taken due to the program. It is great that people can get a few dollars for taking in tails, but I can not see it making a noticeable difference in the population of the predators or birds. Population numbers of both go up and down all the time.


"Not Really, Not Really"
Mark J Monti
"MJM you're a jerk."
Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7301174
07/07/21 09:29 AM
07/07/21 09:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,070
MN
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walleye101 Offline
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MN
MJM makes some excellent points regarding the effectiveness of the program, and provided some interesting facts from the Delta Waterfowl studies. One thing that needs to be considered in this discussion is scale. The reason a 10% improvement is considered success is because nesting success rates are normally very low, so 10% more is both statistically and practically significant. These studies consistently show that it takes intensive effort to achieve this success rate, and that effort can only be accomplished on relatively small study areas. Since it's impractical to match that effort, large scale predator control is declared to be ineffective. But, again let's consider scale. If in fact the SD program raised the hatch even a couple of percent as MJM suggests, that would be huge on a statewide scale. It may be statistically insignificant but from a practical standpoint more nests would be effected by a half percent improvement statewide than a 10% improvement on a 36 sq mile block.

Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7301204
07/07/21 10:13 AM
07/07/21 10:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 27,900
Central, SD
Law Dog Online content OP
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Central, SD
Last year it appeared we got hit with distemper early in the summer or spring time of the year, if it hit later I would find more carcasses on the line like past years when we had outbreaks. Like I said places that produced good numbers of coon, skunks and possums years before produced very few last year. A guy would hit a few pockets of coon or skunks but overall the numbers were down except for a increase in possum numbers that seemed to be up overall.

Until they increase habitat your not going to see a boom in the bird numbers and the current farming practices are not supporting the habitat needs of wildlife. Haying during the hatch is not helping, farming fence to fence is more common now, when it’s dry the set aside lands get emergency cuttings that seems to be pretty regular. If a slough gets dry it plowed and planted. If cooperate type buyers acquire lands they slash and burn the trees and cover soon after the purchase.

The GFP has a habitat program in place but again they cannot do it all on their own.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7301226
07/07/21 11:02 AM
07/07/21 11:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,070
MN
W
walleye101 Offline
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MN
There is no doubt that large scale habitat programs would be far more effective, with longer term results, than predator reduction programs. What is frustrating for sportsmen is when Wildlife agencies tell them that predator control does little good, so let's do nothing at all.

Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7301247
07/07/21 11:53 AM
07/07/21 11:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 4,359
se South Dakota
NonPCfed Offline
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se South Dakota
As I said before, the SD tail bounty program is more of a political statement than hard-core wildlife management science. Yes, I'm the sure the SD GF&P biologists know about the Delta predator efforts and results. These results aren't exactly new, they've been teaching such results in wildlife science for at least several decades. I suspect that the current drought (which started last year) has put the smack down on game birds much more than 3 years of trying to control predators.

Law Dog brings up the point of scale in how to spend some money. The key for more game birds is habitat, that has always been known but when most of the state is privately owned and farmers/ranchers are reacting to FEDERAL agricultural policy/management, there is little that the state of SD government can do. Gov. Kristi decided to spend the $500k she convinced the state agency to set aside for a little state resident trapping PR and "welfare". If the state would have put the same amount of money into renting farmland and placing into more game bird friendly habitat, they may have gotten maybe 2,500 acres enrolled (I'm basing that on $200 an acre cash rent for overall SD average cropland rental, it may be actually higher than that). 2,500 acres, which would have to be maintained for several years in their improved habitat state to be any good, doesn't translate very far across a state of about 49,280,000 acres. Ok, its a little "trapper welfare" but it will most likely be spent in state (some will come back as sales tax) and its more spread around than in some very specific local areas were pieces and parts of 2,500 acres could be rented.

It doesn't make biological sense but maybe some political sense...


"And God said, Let us make man in our image …and let them have dominion …and all the creatures that move along the ground".
Genesis 1:26
Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: NonPCfed] #7301314
07/07/21 02:50 PM
07/07/21 02:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,070
MN
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walleye101 Offline
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MN
Originally Posted by NonPCfed
Yes, I'm the sure the SD GF&P biologists know about the Delta predator efforts and results. These results aren't exactly new, they've been teaching such results in wildlife science for at least several decades.



It is interesting talking with some of those wildlife science students, and what they retained. I have had Wildlife managers (past students) tell me that the Delta studies (and others) have proven that predator management does not work. That is the company line you will hear from most wildlife agencies. However, those studies actually showed that predator management can significantly improve nest success. The effectiveness of predator management programs become a matter of scale and economics. One reason wildlife agencies oppose predator management is that they almost always involves bounty programs. Bounty programs are expensive and compete directly with wildlife agencies for funding.

Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7301342
07/07/21 03:33 PM
07/07/21 03:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 4,359
se South Dakota
NonPCfed Offline
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se South Dakota
Quote
t is interesting talking with some of those wildlife science students, and what they retained. I have had Wildlife managers (past students) tell me that the Delta studies (and others) have proven that predator management does not work. That is the company line you will hear from most wildlife agencies. However, those studies actually showed that predator management can significantly improve nest success. The effectiveness of predator management programs become a matter of scale and economics. One reason wildlife agencies oppose predator management is that they almost always involves bounty programs. Bounty programs are expensive and compete directly with wildlife agencies for funding.


And, as I pointed out, for habitat improvement for game birds around the state, $500k won't get much if your trying to rent and make some farmland better game bird habitat. Maybe spending that initial $560k on putting in more shrub thickets/thermal cover (gawd, spare me more pure ERC shelterbelts on state game land!) on their existing land might have been better money spent...


"And God said, Let us make man in our image …and let them have dominion …and all the creatures that move along the ground".
Genesis 1:26
Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7301347
07/07/21 03:42 PM
07/07/21 03:42 PM
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Posts: 1,818
Garden,Michigan
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Buck (Zandra) Offline
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Garden,Michigan
Say what you want about state run bounties,govt will always condemn money that gets paid out to the public that comes out of their pocket.


Buck(formely known as Zandra)
Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Buck (Zandra)] #7301368
07/07/21 04:49 PM
07/07/21 04:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,070
MN
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walleye101 Offline
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Posts: 2,070
MN
Originally Posted by Buck (Zandra)
Say what you want about state run bounties,govt will always condemn money that gets paid out to the public that comes out of their pocket.


I'm not saying bounty programs are bad, I'm saying government wildlife agencies have a vested interest in claiming they don't work.

Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: walleye101] #7301470
07/07/21 07:58 PM
07/07/21 07:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,661
East-Central Wisconsin
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East-Central Wisconsin
I agree with several posters above that getting people involved in a project that will increase their likelihood of spending more time in consumptive outdoor activities is not a bad use of state funds. There are many ways that 500K could have been spent in even less productive manners. Unfortunately we live in a time when political "science" out plays any real biological science even in wildlife management. Unfortunate but very true in my opinion. The idea that a state is willing to utilize their own public funds to help promote not only a local bird population but a federally managed to an extent migratory waterfowl species sends a message to all states and outdoor users and researchers that we are willing to pitch in, where are you and what is your contribution?

Bryce

Re: SD tail bounty numbers [Re: Law Dog] #7301496
07/07/21 08:43 PM
07/07/21 08:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 27,900
Central, SD
Law Dog Online content OP
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Central, SD
The first year GFP gave out a bunch of cages if you signed up for them, very nice tru-catch cages, I passed I had plenty of cages. GFP is doing a lot of training trapper ethic instructors across SD they are paired up with a local trapper to do the hands on parts.

Supplies are given to the kids traps need to be returned at the end of the class sometimes you need to fill in the gaps for supplies to make things workout. The kids I had last year did very well trapping they made me proud nothing they did not catch between them.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
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