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Rifle technique #7313174
07/24/21 11:53 PM
07/24/21 11:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 554
Interior Alaska
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30/06 Offline OP
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My 15yo daughter has been shooting our Bergara .308 once or twice weekly since early spring, practicing for next month's hunt. I mounted a Magpul bipod, and that has tightened her groups. Today we graduated to 200yds, and a confusing problem arose. The rifle shoots about 3" high at 100 yds from the bench, centered horizontally. Prone, with bipod supports, it shot slightly high but 3-5" left for her, low and 1-2 right for me. I am baffled. Barrel temp was warm from start to finish at 200 yds, so I don't think barrel heating was an issue, nor wind, loads, weather. Perhaps we squeeze the trigger differently? Is one of us, likely me, is twisting the rifle as the trigger breaks? We are both right handed, shooting a right handed Bergara with 22" barrel, and 7.62x51 ammo with 147gr bullets. FWIW, I'm an NRA certified basic rifle instructor, but not tons of experience at it and I haven't taught in several years.
Any ideas? Thanks

Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313181
07/25/21 12:08 AM
07/25/21 12:08 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 16,091
Anchorage, Alaska
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James Offline
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Parallax. You and she may be centering the target differently in the eyepiece?

Just speculating.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313189
07/25/21 12:44 AM
07/25/21 12:44 AM
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North East Kansas
Marty Offline
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I would check the cheek welds being different from bench to prone. Take a photo of both and review them. Wrist and hand angle on the trigger hand would be the next thing to look at.


Live/Die with Integrity and Honor.
Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313191
07/25/21 12:53 AM
07/25/21 12:53 AM
Joined: May 2008
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Mn
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nightlife Offline
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Mn
Slight differences in how you and her hold it can have big differences in point of impact which is why a person should sight in their own gun





�Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks.�
― Robert A. Heinlein
Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313192
07/25/21 01:14 AM
07/25/21 01:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
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Interior Alaska
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30/06 Offline OP
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Interior Alaska
Cheek weld is definitely different from bench to prone for both of us. The rifle butt also fits into the shoulder differently too, because of obvious difference in the spine's angle relative to the bore. How does one adapt to the differences in geometry of bench vs prone?

Parallax is a reasonable possibility. On line sources disagree, and variously state our scope (Leopoldo 1.5-5x) is parallax free at 100 or 150 yards. Either way, it doesn't seem like it would amount to that much difference.

Thank you both

Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313193
07/25/21 01:17 AM
07/25/21 01:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 554
Interior Alaska
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30/06 Offline OP
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Interior Alaska
Oops! I meant Leupold 1.5-5x. Dang auto-correct🤬

Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313219
07/25/21 06:07 AM
07/25/21 06:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
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Nova Scotia
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Bruiser1 Offline
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Nova Scotia
Buy a bubble level that attaches to the scope. If the rifle is canted one way or another it really gets magnified with distance

Re: Rifle technique [Re: Bruiser1] #7313222
07/25/21 06:19 AM
07/25/21 06:19 AM
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SD
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TC1 Offline
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Very little, if any, at standard ranges. Long range yes, but not the case here. Save your cash and look at the above mentioned issues. Possibly try shooting from bags, just for grins also? Cant can certainly cause issues at much longer ranges though. Also make sure rails/bases and rings are all good to go. Good luck

Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313226
07/25/21 06:41 AM
07/25/21 06:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 21,661
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
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Quote
Bruiser1


Buy a bubble level that attaches to the scope. If the rifle is canted one way or another it really gets magnified with distance



yep. or just consciously straighten up the vertical crosshair.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Rifle technique [Re: danny clifton] #7313239
07/25/21 07:17 AM
07/25/21 07:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,171
eastern WV
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Ridge Runner1960 Offline
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
Quote
Bruiser1


Buy a bubble level that attaches to the scope. If the rifle is canted one way or another it really gets magnified with distance



yep. or just consciously straighten up the vertical crosshair.

You cannot do this, there is no way you can straighten up the crosshair, put a level on your rifle and try if you don't believe me. what appears plumb through the scope in different terrain is not plumb. been shooting deer at ungodly ranges for years and I can't do it!

Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313258
07/25/21 08:20 AM
07/25/21 08:20 AM
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Pa
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Wright Brothers Offline
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A plumb bob string in the line of sight will be easy to tell if your angle changes with different holds.
Where or how the pod is mounted may be considered. Shoot a group, take it off and repeat.





Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313262
07/25/21 08:27 AM
07/25/21 08:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 243
Montana
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Jackdale Offline
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Montana
Try using a back bag if you weren't already. Rice bag or something under the rear point of contact for the stock. Basically you just have to pull the trigger at that point.

Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313302
07/25/21 09:33 AM
07/25/21 09:33 AM
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Ky
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jbyrd63 Offline
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Ky
LEAD SLED Line it up and shoot. THEN you shoot it at same range. Then let her shoot it. Sand bagged or bi-pod for you and her. IF shes hunting with it why bother how it shoots for you ? Some around here worry how the rifle shoots for the grown up because if the Parents target deer steps out the kid is moved out of the way and parent does the shooting....
.[Linked Image]

Last edited by jbyrd63; 07/25/21 09:35 AM.
Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313303
07/25/21 09:37 AM
07/25/21 09:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
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West Central MN
20scout Offline
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Could be any one of the things others have mentioned. I would also check finger placement on the trigger. One of you could be pushing or pulling the trigger to one side or the other. This usually doesn't show too much with a rifle but really shows when shooting a pistol. Little things like this are amplified by distance and the difference between two shooters and the same rifle. Just my .02 worth.


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Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313305
07/25/21 09:45 AM
07/25/21 09:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
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Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
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Give her a empty chamber and see what happens, Id film it to be able to review it and go over it later.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313335
07/25/21 10:49 AM
07/25/21 10:49 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,244
St. Cloud, MN
trapperkeck Offline
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Take a level to the range and draw a perfectly plumb vertical line on your target. Now, each of you line up, naturally, on the target and see how the line on target lines up with your windage crosshair. Should tell you something.


"The voice of reason!"
Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313342
07/25/21 10:57 AM
07/25/21 10:57 AM
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Missouri
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HayDay Offline
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Missouri
Never paid much attention to the affect of a canted scoped rifle, as for the vast majority of my shooting, it was close range at big targets. It wasn't until I started to focus on accuracy with of all things......an air rifle.......did I realize the nature of the problem.

When you get right down to it.......assumption is that vertical cross hair lines up directly with the center of the barrel. Any bullet fired would thus have to remain centered on that line to hit where you are aimed. Cant the rifle even a little and you are sending the bullet off to the side. Farther the distance, the farther off you are.

Solution most have come up with is to find a way to plumb the gun.......either a bubble level....typically on the mounts......or hang a plumb bob string at target to line crosshair on.

Bubble level means you have to look outside the scope......better than nothing, but you can still screw it up as you move back and forth. Strings don't work when hunting or for most other targets that are other than on a fixed range.

Seems to me the best option is to put a level inside the field of view of the scope. Apparently Leopold and a few others have electronic versions, but I'm not a fan of anything on a rifle that requires a battery to operate......as we all know Murphy was an optimist. Battery will almost certainly die when you want it the most.

What would seem to be a better option would be a mechanical inclinometer. Similar to what pilots use in planes to know if they are flying level.......or some vehicles and sailboats use to know if they are level on their feet or leaning. These are all p[owed by gravity.....same as the plumb string. Put it right inside the scope so you know you are level. And to go with that, positive right angle stops on scopes and mounts so scope registers and is always mounted square to the rifle.

Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313364
07/25/21 11:30 AM
07/25/21 11:30 AM
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Green County Wisconsin
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GREENCOUNTYPETE Online content
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1 sight alignment with a scope this means your eye is behind it and you don't see shadows at the edge of the optic crisp clear image edge to edge , build up cheek riser as needed so her eye is in the same place with a solid cheek well also vertical sights or cross hair

2 sight picture with a scope , this is placing the cross hair on the target , sounds simple , but you need to use your body position to the rifle and not your fine motor muscles

3 respiratory pause empty your breath watching the sights fall or rise to the target as you let your breath out , let it out till you are empty take a few seconds to adjust your body to get the sight picture then breath again you can only really see what your sight picture will be when you are at the bottom if the breath cycle

4A focus you eye on the front sight crisp sight blurry target
with a scope this is a lesser step
4B focus your mind on keeping the front sight on the target
your focusing on keeping the cross hair on the target

5 squeeze the trigger , sqweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze lots of E's to emphasize it is not a pull or a jerk it is a building of pressure till the break not just sqeeeze but strait back and not dragging wood with your trigger finger the trigger finger from the point it leaves the palm of the hand doesn't touch anything but the trigger , work on moving your index finger without sqweezing the rest of your hand center of the pad of your finger on the center of the trigger.

6 follow through hold the trigger back , call your shot a mental snapshot of where the cross hair was when you broke the trigger. you can take a breath post recoil when you have gone back and forward




if you are using muscles to hold the rifle on the target , as you get tired you can't hold it , if you position your body to place the rifle on target you are in a relaxed state

people who hold the gun with muscle can relax as the trigger breaks and throw the shot

respiratory pause breath in and out a few times letting the sights fall to the target. empty is empty , some 1/4 or 1/2 let out of breath is slightly different every time

follow through is huge , keep the trigger back , keep the cheek on the stock , you shouldn't be using muscle and should be relaxed. call the shot
this is where shooting steel helps , get used to not moving or doing anything until you hear the clank of the bullet hitting the steel then inhale , let of the trigger , if it is a bolt action work the bolt trying not to break position , get back to position run the 6 steps again


NPOA is huge , but not really addressed in the 6 steps
Natural Point of Aim when relaxed at the bottom of your breath where is your body pointing the rifle
it is sort of a 2B
you run breath , exhale , adjust body to get sight picture , breath , exhale test

this all sounds like it takes a long time but once you master it you get fast , as a test we transition to prone , load , find npoa , fire 2 , reload find npoa , fire 8 repeating the process with every shot and have some time left on 65 seconds putting 10 rounds in the target at 300 yards every breath is a shot


Law dog makes a good point about flinch , ball dummy drill to see if she has a flinch then keep it going dummy till the ball surprises her

5 inches at 200 yards from a rest is a lot for just parallax or just the difference in how the gun recoils against you vs her

I like a 200 yard zero on a hunting gun , then there is no guessing on 100 yards , you get zero at 200 and see where that hits at 100 it will be the least difference it can be then if you plan to shoot further you see where you fall and write it down.

Last edited by GREENCOUNTYPETE; 07/25/21 11:32 AM.

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Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313396
07/25/21 12:33 PM
07/25/21 12:33 PM
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Interior Alaska
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30/06 Offline OP
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Okay, thanks T-men. I've got a few ideas to look at, probably Monday. I appreciate your inputs.

Re: Rifle technique [Re: 30/06] #7313499
07/25/21 03:25 PM
07/25/21 03:25 PM
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WV
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redsnow Offline
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Cool picture of the little man with his first buck!

I'll tell you, I've read the comments. Very good chance the young lady is flintching. Not how much she weighs? But a .308 is a big gun for a kid. I'd rather see kids started out with small guns. A habit to flintch is a hard habit to break!

Could be the length of pull? If she's not squared up, that would put her off.

If you're handloading ammo, you can back it off on the load. Let her practice, and get comfortable with the gun, then when season starts give her full power ammo.

If she's afraid to pull the trigger, she's not going to be able to stay on target.

Not sure? But I wish her good luck.

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