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Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355538
09/14/21 01:17 PM
09/14/21 01:17 PM
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James Offline OP
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At least I now know the probable basis for the Catholic belief that works matter: it's Revelations 20: 11.

What I can't figure out is why most Protestants apparently ignore this verse.

Jim


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Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355548
09/14/21 01:32 PM
09/14/21 01:32 PM
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Works matter. Just not as a condition of salvation. In that same passage, if your name is not found in the book of life, you will be cast into the lake of fire. Your works will not keep that from happening, no matter how good you think they are.

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355549
09/14/21 01:33 PM
09/14/21 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by James
At least I now know the probable basis for the Catholic belief that works matter: it's Revelations 20: 11.

What I can't figure out is why most Protestants apparently ignore this verse.

Jim



????

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

This verse? Or do you mean 12?

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355551
09/14/21 01:35 PM
09/14/21 01:35 PM
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I meant 12. Thanks for pointing that out.

Jim


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Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355552
09/14/21 01:36 PM
09/14/21 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by James
"...and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds."

Doesn't this passage refute the idea that salvation lies in faith alone in Jesus Christ? This verse seems to be saying that you will be judged according to your faith and your deeds (good works). This verse is good support for the Catholic position.

Your interpretation, amspoker, strikes me as entirely plausible.

Jim

James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355553
09/14/21 01:37 PM
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OK assuming you mean 20:12...

At this point, most believe the rapture has already happened. Those people left are those who have survived tribulation. Note that there are TWO books (v12). One of which is the book of life. That book has the names of all who are believers in Jesus. If your name isn't in that book, you're out. If your name IS in that book, then you go on to the next book, by which you are judged by your works, to determine what rewards you will receive in Heaven.

It's not as complicated as you're making it James.

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355597
09/14/21 02:31 PM
09/14/21 02:31 PM
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Yotetrapper, your interpretation is plausible, but not inevitable. Other interpretations are possible. I'd like to hear what Mark thinks of yours.

I never knew that most people, even most Christians, believe the Rapture has already happened. My Christian parents, son, and daughter-in-law don't believe that.

What does surviving "tribulation" mean? Is tribulation the same as the Rapture? Have I survived tribulation, and if so, how, since I'm not a Christian?

Jim

Last edited by James; 09/14/21 02:32 PM.

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Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355642
09/14/21 04:11 PM
09/14/21 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by James
Yotetrapper, your interpretation is plausible, but not inevitable. Other interpretations are possible. I'd like to hear what Mark thinks of yours.

I never knew that most people, even most Christians, believe the Rapture has already happened. My Christian parents, son, and daughter-in-law don't believe that.

What does surviving "tribulation" mean? Is tribulation the same as the Rapture? Have I survived tribulation, and if so, how, since I'm not a Christian?

Jim


No, Jim, I mean by "this point (Chapter 20) in Revelation", not right now. Many if not most Bible scholars believe the Rapture occurs before the 7 year tribulation period begins. All believers will be raptured to Heaven. Just before or after that, a peace treaty will be signed with Israel. That marks the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation. The purpose of the Tribulation period is to turn as many of the unbelievers that are left on earth into believers before the end of the world. During the tribulation, there will be 21 judgments sent from God, each worse than the one before. The 7 seal judgments, the 7 Trumpet judgments, and the 7 bowl judgments. During this time, 144,000 Jews and more other people than can be counted will turn to Christ. It's a second chance for those left behind after the rapture. During those 7 years, 3/4 of the earth's population will die... some will die in Christ, and some without. At the end of the 7 years, 1/4 of the population will remain. Those are the people being judged in Rev. 20.

There are some variations of course to what people believe regarding the Rapture and Tribulation (and I think that would be a great thread in and of itself) and I'm no Bible scholar, but I think this is a general idea for you of what happens. I would suggest reading ALL of Revelation, as it's all laid out there plain as day.

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355656
09/14/21 04:29 PM
09/14/21 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by James
Originally Posted by waggler
OP,
The idea of leaving family, fields, etc, simply means those believers who have given up more than other believers, such as martyrs, etc.. We will all be rewarded, some more than others. But, scripture says that out of gratitude we will all lay our rewards at the feet of Jesus; in other words we all eventually will be on the same level.

James,
The judgment you are referring to isn't about eternal life versus eternal death.


So we will all be rewarded according to our faith and deeds? That's what Catholics believe.

Your second statement is a plausible statement. What is the purpose of the apostles' judging? Is that revealed elsewhere in the Bible.


Jim

Yes, all believers will be judge and rewarded for our good deeds, not for our bad deeds, those bad deeds (sin) have been forgiven.
God's system of justice is a lot different than ours.
I'll have to look into the "apostles' judging" issue and get back to you.


"I'm not skilled to understand"
Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355660
09/14/21 04:31 PM
09/14/21 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by James
Yotetrapper, your interpretation is plausible, but not inevitable. Other interpretations are possible. I'd like to hear what Mark thinks of yours.

I never knew that most people, even most Christians, believe the Rapture has already happened. My Christian parents, son, and daughter-in-law don't believe that.

What does surviving "tribulation" mean? Is tribulation the same as the Rapture? Have I survived tribulation, and if so, how, since I'm not a Christian?

Jim


Jim,
Studies are covering me up this week and I didn't read these posts and may not all week, but please remember that if you'er looking at v. 28 & 29, that for proper context Peter, at the end of v. 27 is asking a question in which he is "still" asking with a tone of self-righteousness.... What will there be for us? This is huge heading into 28 & 29. Just a quick note.

Blessings,
Mark


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Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: Mark June] #7355667
09/14/21 04:36 PM
09/14/21 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark June
Originally Posted by James
Yotetrapper, your interpretation is plausible, but not inevitable. Other interpretations are possible. I'd like to hear what Mark thinks of yours.

I never knew that most people, even most Christians, believe the Rapture has already happened. My Christian parents, son, and daughter-in-law don't believe that.


What does surviving "tribulation" mean? Is tribulation the same as the Rapture? Have I survived tribulation, and if so, how, since I'm not a Christian?

Jim


Jim,
Studies are covering me up this week and I didn't read these posts and may not all week, but please remember that if you'er looking at v. 28 & 29, that for proper context Peter, at the end of v. 27 is asking a question in which he is "still" asking with a tone of self-righteousness.... What will there be for us? This is huge heading into 28 & 29. Just a quick note.

Blessings,
Mark


We've moved on to Revelation 20:12

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: yotetrapper30] #7355673
09/14/21 04:41 PM
09/14/21 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by yotetrapper30
Originally Posted by James
Yotetrapper, your interpretation is plausible, but not inevitable. Other interpretations are possible. I'd like to hear what Mark thinks of yours.

I never knew that most people, even most Christians, believe the Rapture has already happened. My Christian parents, son, and daughter-in-law don't believe that.

What does surviving "tribulation" mean? Is tribulation the same as the Rapture? Have I survived tribulation, and if so, how, since I'm not a Christian?

Jim


No, Jim, I mean by "this point (Chapter 20) in Revelation", not right now. Many if not most Bible scholars believe the Rapture occurs before the 7 year tribulation period begins. All believers will be raptured to Heaven. Just before or after that, a peace treaty will be signed with Israel. That marks the beginning of the 7 year Tribulation. The purpose of the Tribulation period is to turn as many of the unbelievers that are left on earth into believers before the end of the world. During the tribulation, there will be 21 judgments sent from God, each worse than the one before. The 7 seal judgments, the 7 Trumpet judgments, and the 7 bowl judgments. During this time, 144,000 Jews and more other people than can be counted will turn to Christ. It's a second chance for those left behind after the rapture. During those 7 years, 3/4 of the earth's population will die... some will die in Christ, and some without. At the end of the 7 years, 1/4 of the population will remain. Those are the people being judged in Rev. 20.

There are some variations of course to what people believe regarding the Rapture and Tribulation (and I think that would be a great thread in and of itself) and I'm no Bible scholar, but I think this is a general idea for you of what happens. I would suggest reading ALL of Revelation, as it's all laid out there plain as day.


Since we haven't noticed any missing people, wondered about absent spouses, or seen piles of empty clothing all around, doesn't that mean the Rapture hasn't yet occurred? I mean, we'd notice, right?

I don't want to offend anyone's religion or faith, but I've long thought that whoever wrote Revelations was taking hallucinogenic drugs. (Remember, I don't believe that all of the Bible is the word of God.) Just like Mohammad was tripping out when an angel took him flying to Mecca.

Okay, maybe not someone taking drugs. Maybe Revelations was written after the author's fever dream or delirium. I've had the most fantastic dreams and "visions" while asleep with a fever.

Jim

Last edited by James; 09/14/21 04:50 PM.

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Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355685
09/14/21 04:52 PM
09/14/21 04:52 PM
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In the second chapter of James it states that faith without works is dead. We can't just say I am a believer in Christ and expect a greater reward than someone who has the faith and puts the Gospel to use doing good for his fellow man. I think it is in John chapter 14 where he talks "my Father's house has many mansions ". I interpret that to mean that they are not all the same. Meaning different rewards.

As far as what verse 29 means, he is talking about rewarding those who have given up great things to completely follow him because they have made a great sacrifice and they will be rewarded.

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355687
09/14/21 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by James


Since we haven't noticed any missing people, wondered about absent spouses, or seen piles of empty clothing all around, doesn't that mean the Rapture hasn't yet occurred? I mean, we'd notice, right?

I don't want to offend anyone's religion or faith, but I've long thought that whoever wrote Revelations was taking hallucinogenic drugs. (Remember, I don't believe that all of the Bible is the word of God.) Just like Mohammad was tripping out when an angel took him flying to Mecca.

Jim


You're still not understanding. No, James, of course the rapture has not occurred yet. I was saying that by the point in time of Revelation 20, it had occurred by THEN.

But even that is debatable. Many people believe the Rapture occurs pre-tribulation, while others think it occurs mid or post tribulation. The Bible doesn't explicitly specify.

But yeah, you'll notice when it happens. Tman will be a lot quieter, lol.

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355690
09/14/21 04:57 PM
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Jasper, thanks for the input on Verse 28.

I agree with your interpretation of 29. But giving up "great things" includes wife and child abandonment. I would never expect God to reward me for doing so, even if He would anyway.

Jim


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Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: yotetrapper30] #7355693
09/14/21 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by yotetrapper30
Originally Posted by James


Since we haven't noticed any missing people, wondered about absent spouses, or seen piles of empty clothing all around, doesn't that mean the Rapture hasn't yet occurred? I mean, we'd notice, right?

I don't want to offend anyone's religion or faith, but I've long thought that whoever wrote Revelations was taking hallucinogenic drugs. (Remember, I don't believe that all of the Bible is the word of God.) Just like Mohammad was tripping out when an angel took him flying to Mecca.

Jim


You're still not understanding. No, James, of course the rapture has not occurred yet. I was saying that by the point in time of Revelation 20, it had occurred by THEN.

But even that is debatable. Many people believe the Rapture occurs pre-tribulation, while others think it occurs mid or post tribulation. The Bible doesn't explicitly specify.

But yeah, you'll notice when it happens. Tman will be a lot quieter, lol.


Maybe I'll be left alone here to talk to myself in an unmoderated forum.

And the hardcore Trump supporters, of course.

Yotetrapper, you previously posted: "At this point, most believe the rapture has already happened."

Jim


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Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355695
09/14/21 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by James

Yotetrapper, you previously posted: "At this point, most believe the rapture has already happened."

Jim


Yes, and then I've tried to explain, 3 times since then, that I meant that "At this point IN THE TIMELINE OF REVELATION, most believe the rapture has already happened." So, in other words, by the time the stuff going on in Revelation 20 is happening, the rapture would have already happened. I don't know how to explain any better than that, LOL.

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355734
09/14/21 06:02 PM
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I guess we were talking around each other.

Jim


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Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355747
09/14/21 06:15 PM
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James, I am not so sure that means they were abandoned. I think it might mean more that he forsake being with them constantly like a normal husband and father. Remember that basically Christ forsook having a wife and children to fulfill his mission on earth. As far as we know. You might then ask, why would his Heavenly Father do that. All will be made right in the end by a loving Heavenly Father and Saviour. There is much our mortal minds do not comprehend. However, as we live closer to our Saviour"s teachings our mind and spirit is expanded and we learn to understand more. Line upon line, precept on precept. We must remember that this life is only the blink of an eye on the timeline of eternity. But it is a very important time that has great effect upon our eternity.

Re: Interpretation of Matthew 19: 28-29 [Re: James] #7355752
09/14/21 06:28 PM
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Thanks, Jasper, for a calm, civil, direct answer to my question.

I have trouble accepting that advice or instruction as the words of a just God.

Jim


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