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Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: J Staton] #7357973
09/17/21 04:42 PM
09/17/21 04:42 PM
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Posts: 16,081
Anchorage, Alaska
J
James Offline
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It takes a really stretched interpretation to say that wine means grape juice. As Danny says, the ancients knew the difference.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: J Staton] #7357987
09/17/21 05:05 PM
09/17/21 05:05 PM
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Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
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Proverbs 23:20

I'm a total abstainer.

Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: danny clifton] #7357995
09/17/21 05:14 PM
09/17/21 05:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,178
Georgia
warrior Online content
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
When i was a kid I was taught the proper interpretation for water into wine was water into grape juice. But when you read the tale it goes on to say it was a particularly excellent wine. The host was asked why it wasn't served first. Seems an odd thing if talking about grape juice. I also find it hard to believe that ancients used the same word for wine and grape juice. Also without refrigeration or chemicals grape juice begins fermenting immediately upon pressing it out. The warnings against drunkenness' only make sense if they knew the difference and were not calling fresh squeezed grape juice wine.

Not really a big deal to me till church folk look at me cross-eyed when I am enjoying a nice hoppy beer of an evening.


Considering sanitation of the time, and for most of human history, it was suicidal to drink anything that wasn't fortified with disinfectant.

Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: J Staton] #7358024
09/17/21 06:09 PM
09/17/21 06:09 PM
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Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30 Offline
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Wine was wine and those saying it was grape juice are twisting scripture to fit their needs. And even Jesus himself drank it. The sin comes in drinking to excess. Is Posco's verse above, the term used is "winebibber". The definition of winebibber is someone who drinks wine too much

Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: J Staton] #7358029
09/17/21 06:26 PM
09/17/21 06:26 PM
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Posts: 3,205
Southeast Ohio
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19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

I'd wager He wasn't drinking grape juice if they accused Christ of being a drunkard.

Last edited by amspoker; 09/17/21 06:29 PM.

Levi
Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: Posco] #7358030
09/17/21 06:27 PM
09/17/21 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Posco
Proverbs 23:20

I'm a total abstainer.


That's way out of context.

Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: yotetrapper30] #7358094
09/17/21 07:34 PM
09/17/21 07:34 PM
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Arkansas
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J Staton Offline OP
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Originally Posted by yotetrapper30
Wine was wine and those saying it was grape juice are twisting scripture to fit their needs. And even Jesus himself drank it. The sin comes in drinking to excess. Is Posco's verse above, the term used is "winebibber". The definition of winebibber is someone who drinks wine too much

This was taught in an attempt to keep folks from taking up liquor. Especially the youth. Not biblical but the intention was good. It likely turned some folks away for not speaking the truth. We've all heard that the road to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) was paved with good intentions. This may fall into that category. This wasn't only taught in the Baptist church.
On the other hand I had a good friend in high school who was Catholic. His church threw a keg party every Super Bowl Sunday. grin

Last edited by J Staton; 09/17/21 07:35 PM.

1 Samuel 17:45-47
Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: J Staton] #7358113
09/17/21 07:51 PM
09/17/21 07:51 PM
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Posts: 16,081
Anchorage, Alaska
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James Offline
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And don't forget Friday night Bingo.

Jim


Forum Infidel since 2001

"And that troll bs is something triggered snowflakes say when they dont like what someone posts." - Boco
Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: J Staton] #7358123
09/17/21 07:58 PM
09/17/21 07:58 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 10,452
Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30 Offline
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Originally Posted by J Staton
Originally Posted by yotetrapper30
Wine was wine and those saying it was grape juice are twisting scripture to fit their needs. And even Jesus himself drank it. The sin comes in drinking to excess. Is Posco's verse above, the term used is "winebibber". The definition of winebibber is someone who drinks wine too much

This was taught in an attempt to keep folks from taking up liquor. Especially the youth. Not biblical but the intention was good. It likely turned some folks away for not speaking the truth. We've all heard that the road to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) was paved with good intentions. This may fall into that category. This wasn't only taught in the Baptist church.
On the other hand I had a good friend in high school who was Catholic. His church threw a keg party every Super Bowl Sunday. grin


I grew up Methodist and while I don't remember the preacher ever preaching about alcohol it seemed to just be "known" that you shouldn't drink. But of course everyone still did, lol.

And yeah, in our area every year the Catholics hosted a carnival with a beer tent with at least half a dozen cops patrolling it for all the drunken brawls that broke out. And there were always posters hanging up places inviting people to the Catholics "beer bashes"... that's what they even called them LOL.

Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: James] #7358150
09/17/21 08:20 PM
09/17/21 08:20 PM
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Texas
Mark June Offline
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Originally Posted by James
Originally Posted by warrior
I say "are" as in as the convention has yet to reverse past statements against the consumption of alcohol. It's really a quandry to me as it's one of those things we claim as tradition yet do otherwise in individual practice.

For me I interpret Paul's all things in moderation and instruction to Timothy to take a little wine plus the warnings against drunkenness to mean consumption is allowable if consumption itself doesn't become the issue. But then there is also Paul's warning to refrain from an allowable activity if it should be cause for another to stumble.


And I thought you said the Bible isn't subject to interpretation.

Jim


The reading of Scripture in a hermeneutical (methodology of interpreting biblical text) sense grin is "observation," while the interpretation of Scripture is deemed philosophy.
I think I see (that would be my observational and philosophical statement) both methods in action on this site.


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Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: CoonsBane] #7358218
09/17/21 09:23 PM
09/17/21 09:23 PM
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Posts: 7,027
Maine, Aroostook
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Originally Posted by CoonsBane
Originally Posted by Posco
Proverbs 23:20

I'm a total abstainer.


That's way out of context.

Put your claim in context.

Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: James] #7358222
09/17/21 09:27 PM
09/17/21 09:27 PM
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Alaska and Washington State
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Originally Posted by James
In context of the rest of your words, the difference isn't material.

Jim

Jim,

I like your nit-picking.

Iron sharpens iron.

I also like thick skin; it really is to be admired.


"I'm not skilled to understand"
Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: J Staton] #7358235
09/17/21 09:37 PM
09/17/21 09:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 171
Utah
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Jasper69 Offline
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Utah
Haven't read all the responses, but in context these are things that were being taught at the time that were not correct or right.

Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: Posco] #7358263
09/17/21 09:52 PM
09/17/21 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Posco

Put your claim in context.


Read the whole Proverb, not half of it.

Do not be among winebibbers, or among gluttonous eaters of meat; for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and drowsiness will clothe them with rags.
Proverbs 23:20-21

You're taking it way out of context if you think this is telling you to completely abstain. Do you also abstain from all meat?

Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: J Staton] #7358289
09/17/21 10:11 PM
09/17/21 10:11 PM
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Texas
Mark June Offline
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Some of the most enduring Scripture comes from the time while Paul was imprisoned in Nero's Mamertine Prison in Rome. It was brutal. Dropped you in from a hole in the ceiling and you get your water as best you can as a prisoner from condensation. At one recorded time, 47 believers were held in this tiny space.
We can only imagine how horrible it must have been.

Paul's divinely inspired writings to Timothy were letters of encouragement and exhortation to a young man, lured by the worldly pleasures in Ephesus including the immorality at the great wonder of the world, the Temple of Artemus.
Paul minced no words with the false teachers, who were aligned as antagonists against the Christian faithful.

The false teachers include;
the world
the flesh
satan

[Linked Image]


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Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: waggler] #7358336
09/17/21 11:03 PM
09/17/21 11:03 PM
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Posts: 16,081
Anchorage, Alaska
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James Offline
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Originally Posted by waggler
Originally Posted by James
In context of the rest of your words, the difference isn't material.

Jim

Jim,

I like your nit-picking.

Iron sharpens iron.

I also like thick skin; it really is to be admired.


I don't mean to pick at nits. To me, it's not a nit.

In fact the Bible is subject to a lot of interpretation, and that's why there are so many different sects, like Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, JWs, Mormons, Lutherans,Greek Orthodox believers, and so on, each believing the others are wrong, if not heretical.

When I was a kid some Baptist kids weren't allowed to play with me because I was Catholic. So much for love thy neighbor.

Jim

Last edited by James; 09/18/21 02:35 AM.

Forum Infidel since 2001

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Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: Mark June] #7358445
09/18/21 07:24 AM
09/18/21 07:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 9,838
Greene County,Virginia
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run Online sick
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Originally Posted by Mark June
Some of the most enduring Scripture comes from the time while Paul was imprisoned in Nero's Mamertine Prison in Rome. It was brutal. Dropped you in from a hole in the ceiling and you get your water as best you can as a prisoner from condensation. At one recorded time, 47 believers were held in this tiny space.
We can only imagine how horrible it must have been.

Paul's divinely inspired writings to Timothy were letters of encouragement and exhortation to a young man, lured by the worldly pleasures in Ephesus including the immorality at the great wonder of the world, the Temple of Artemus.
Paul minced no words with the false teachers, who were aligned as antagonists against the Christian faithful.

The false teachers include;
the world
the flesh
satan

[Linked Image]

That prison does look rough.


wanna be goat farmer.
Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: CoonsBane] #7358451
09/18/21 07:29 AM
09/18/21 07:29 AM
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Maine, Aroostook
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Originally Posted by CoonsBane
Originally Posted by Posco

Put your claim in context.


You're taking it way out of context if you think this is telling you to completely abstain. Do you also abstain from all meat?

You read more into it than my intent. I abstain as a personal choice, not because it's forbidden.

Last edited by Posco; 09/18/21 07:31 AM.
Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: J Staton] #7358467
09/18/21 07:50 AM
09/18/21 07:50 AM
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Fair enough. It's too often that people try to justify their actions based on a single line in the bible. I got frustrated at our last church when we would study books in our Sunday school class. They would spend a month or two going over a book someone wrote based on a single verse. Most of the time it was overanalyzing and drawing outrageous conclusions and way out of context.

Re: 1 Timothy 4:3 Question [Re: J Staton] #7358514
09/18/21 08:52 AM
09/18/21 08:52 AM
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Mark June Offline
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The Bible is called a narrative Book made up of genres of literature (wisdom, epistle; letters, historical, etc).
The overemphasis by the Western Church, and especially the American church denominations (splinter groups) these last few centuries is they reduce the narrative about God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), inspired through human authorship and given (revealed) to people so that they might know about God....

to a book about application.. Many American churches take God's story of Him and turn it into 90% application, which is what does it mean for "ME."

The Bible hermeneutics most used is; observation (reading), interpretation (what does it say), and application (what does it mean for me) and they supposed to be kept in balance and American theologians like Jonathan Edwards wrote extensively about the error one makes when we stick "me" in every sentence. The self-righteous of any era love to turn the spot light from God to them. They are the ones who know more Bible verses, and do not interpret with anyone else because they alone know it all, and on an on. Edwards wrote one of the most respected treatises in Evangelical history with his "Religious Affections" in 1746. It is more relevant today than in his time I believe.

The summary for Edwards was that someone can't love God when they take the story about God (the Bible) and make it about themselves, because you can't love someone you don't know. You just become a rule maker, just like the Israelites given 10 commands through the 1st prophet Moses from God. The Law was meant to show.... these instructions are impossible, we need to repent and obey God, but in human wisdom fashion.... the Israelites took the 10 commands and by the time Jesus had come as God-man, the religious had made them into 613 Laws. Oh, and had not looked to God for any of it. Just kept on sacrificing innocent animals to make themselves appear righteous. Jesus rebuked the whole lot of them.

Read the narrative story of God as it was intended, start at page one like ANY book you read, and read along, not to APPLY every dot and tittle, but to simply discover the wonder of the God who made us from the dust. THAT Edwards maintained, is God's purpose of the Bible. It's about Him... for us. It's NOT about us.

From Edwards treatise about the RULE MAKERS then, who are still with us now. They RUN a lot of churches sadly.
They would deny that much of true religion lies in the affections, and maintain the contrary, must throw away what we have been wont to own for our Bible, and get some other rule, by which to judge of the nature of religion (106).

[Linked Image]

Edwards was a brilliant theologian who saw through the facade of false teachers and false teaching as well as the antagonists of the Church in general.

Blessings,
Mark




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https://www.dts.edu
https://www.markjuneslures.com/
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