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Whatcha think about these groups ? #7374583
10/08/21 04:45 PM
10/08/21 04:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,753
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
trapper
Wolfdog91  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,753
Amite county Mississippi
So trying to rework a old load for my 5.56 ( AR 16" barrel 1/7 twist 3-9x4 Nikon scope shooting off bags) with a 75gr Hornady HPBT originally I was getting right right under 1" @100 yd with ten rounds forgot my fps I'll have to check my notes. But that was with Varget. Varget just seems to be magic ,I swear. Well I got like half a can left and I'm saving that for my other guns. I'm trying Ram shot TAC and I've been trying to work it up but it's been a lil frustrating. So far these are my best two groups . Well one being the best velocity waist the other group wise. All my others have alot of vertical stringing for some reason. I'm shooting off of bags talking my time with each shot ect. My standard deviations are nuts though up to 90fps in some loads. Anyhow this is the best group so far.
This was ten rounds 100yd 22.5 gr average fps 2331 standard deviation 90fps
[Linked Image]

Really really slow I mean it's just a lil better then some of my cast stuff but it's super promising as far as grouping

Then theirs this one. Forgot to start my app to record everything but it was popping up in the 2600 range . It's the velocity I'd really like and this one isnt stringing like all the others did. It was trying to do something with three of them I'm thinking there others could have just been me.

[Linked Image]

I'm already at full mag length so I'm guessing I better start backing off to see if these wanna jump some. But what do y'all think?


Trappermans Resident Black Guy
The Black Redneck! 22yrs
MS National Guardsmen
I Like Moddin Traps 'N Trapping Possums
Go Ordnance!!!!
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Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7374588
10/08/21 04:50 PM
10/08/21 04:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,953
Frazee, MN
B
backroadsarcher Offline
trapper
backroadsarcher  Offline
trapper
B

Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,953
Frazee, MN
Doesn't look to bad.

Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7374644
10/08/21 06:12 PM
10/08/21 06:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 93
Wyoming
E
E.J. Kelley Offline
trapper
E.J. Kelley  Offline
trapper
E

Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 93
Wyoming
Wolfdog. My only experience with the Tac powder is with cartridges of 308 or that are based off of the 308. Tac really preforms in that family. Id keep workin a bit with it in youre 5.56, but, as you said, varget gets the knod! Im shooting the same bullet in my 22-6mm. Much slower powders though. Have you tried BL-C2 yet? Or maybe some of the old 223 powders. Good luck!

Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7374669
10/08/21 06:38 PM
10/08/21 06:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 13,526
The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane Offline
"HOSS"
Leftlane  Offline
"HOSS"

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 13,526
The Hill Country of Texas
I get playin with loads to see just how good it can get but either only of those should be fine for hunting


“What’s good for me may not be good for the weak minded.”
Captain Gus McCrae- Texas Rangers


Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7374678
10/08/21 06:47 PM
10/08/21 06:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,611
ND
grumley701 Offline
trapper
grumley701  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,611
ND
Play with it, every barrel has it's favorites..


Merry Christmas
Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Leftlane] #7374681
10/08/21 06:53 PM
10/08/21 06:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,234
ny
U
upstateNY Offline
trapper
upstateNY  Offline
trapper
U

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,234
ny
Originally Posted by Leftlane
I get playin with loads to see just how good it can get but either only of those should be fine for hunting

It will kill a deer,,but my old Marlin 30-30 does better than that with factory Winchester loads.Just sayin.


the wheels of the gods turn very slowly
Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7374685
10/08/21 06:55 PM
10/08/21 06:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,758
Williamsport, Pa.
J
jk Offline
trapper
jk  Offline
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J

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,758
Williamsport, Pa.
vertical problems might be different bullet weights, I have seen it with some of my stuff out of the same box.......jk


Free people are not equal. Equal people are not free. Whats supposed to be ain't always is.
Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7374697
10/08/21 07:05 PM
10/08/21 07:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,215
Saucier, Mississippi Harrison ...
T
turkn8rtrapper Offline
trapper
turkn8rtrapper  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,215
Saucier, Mississippi Harrison ...
Wolf with that standard deviation I would expect some fliers. Those are good groups but they can be much better. You need to concentrate on closing up that deviation that is easier said than done. My 30-378 that I hunt with has a 5 deviation and they pretty much stack. It's not easy but that is half the fun making your brain get outside the box sometimes. I would have to say that what your groups indicate is the potential for an awesome outcome. I'm like you though in that Varget is definitely my go to powder for my ar's.


"Skin that smokewagon and see what happens"
Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: jk] #7374731
10/08/21 07:45 PM
10/08/21 07:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,753
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
trapper
Wolfdog91  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,753
Amite county Mississippi
Originally Posted by jk
vertical problems might be different bullet weights, I have seen it with some of my stuff out of the same box.......jk


Well he's some more targets. Though it was just me at first but their all stinging about the same way

[Linked Image]


Trappermans Resident Black Guy
The Black Redneck! 22yrs
MS National Guardsmen
I Like Moddin Traps 'N Trapping Possums
Go Ordnance!!!!
Tman Archivist
Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7374879
10/08/21 10:14 PM
10/08/21 10:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,049
NC
T
Tailhunter Offline
trapper
Tailhunter  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,049
NC
Not too bad for buckshot.

Try cfe223 for .223/5.56

Excellent accuracy can be achieved.

Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7374907
10/08/21 10:51 PM
10/08/21 10:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,803
Green County Wisconsin
G
GREENCOUNTYPETE Online content
trapper
GREENCOUNTYPETE  Online Content
trapper
G

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,803
Green County Wisconsin
if your under a minute your good , no need to chase smaller , now gather data where does it hit at every range you can get a target too.

a 10 round group at an inch to 1 1/4 is solid

people get all excited about 3 shot groups , the consistency to do 10 at 1MOA and repeat it over and over is better than someones 3 shot group at a half inch.or less.

Last edited by GREENCOUNTYPETE; 10/08/21 10:56 PM.

America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7374936
10/09/21 01:30 AM
10/09/21 01:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,215
Saucier, Mississippi Harrison ...
T
turkn8rtrapper Offline
trapper
turkn8rtrapper  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 1,215
Saucier, Mississippi Harrison ...
Well said GREENCOUNTYPETE. I could care less what a 3 shot group will do. I also , once I get it grouping at 100 I generally will take it out to 150/200 and see what it does. I've had a couple that keyhole at 100 only to produce a pattern at 200. Some say that certain speeds and BC's don't stabilize till it gets a little further out. I don't really know what it is but I've had it happen. By the time I get it re dialed in my brain usually hurts too much to think about it.


"Skin that smokewagon and see what happens"
Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7374957
10/09/21 05:05 AM
10/09/21 05:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 23
NC
G
garyll1959 Offline
trapper
garyll1959  Offline
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G

Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 23
NC
Wolfe, a few questions. Is this the AR you were asking about shooting off bags with the collapsible stock? If so, that stock by its self will contribute to vertical stringing. Just no was to stabilize it with a rear bag, and for me, the collapsible stocks are terrible for a consistent cheek weld with optics. Also, front bipod, correct? Heavy, gritty trigger?
Second, 223 /5.56 is notoriously hard to get low SD's with, even with benchrest loading techniques. My mid-range F class loads, 80 grain Bergers over Varget average around 11 fps SD, but it took a lot of trial, and error, and burnt powder to get there. At 100 yards, 11 fps doesn't show up on the target, but at 600, it'll be out of the X ring. My 308 loads, for comparison, average around 4 to 5 fps SD.
Lastly, that 75 Hornady is a long bullet for weight, but it should stabilize out of a 1:7 at speeds above 2350fps or so. It may just one of the combinations of powder and bullet that just don't work in your barrel. I've used TAC some in the 5.56, but never had the best results, accuracy wise with it compared to say Varget or R-15.
Shoot me a PM sometime when you have a chance. I have a bunch of AR 'stuff' and load data.

Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7374997
10/09/21 06:45 AM
10/09/21 06:45 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,908
meadowview, Virginia
E
EdP Offline
trapper
EdP  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 2,908
meadowview, Virginia
I do almost all of my work with bolts and single shots so the AR guys have a better baseline for advice but one thing you might consider is how you shoot the rifle. Do you auto load from the mag or load singles when you are ready to shoot again. By loading singles you will reduce the potential for temperature effects on the powder/cartridge as it heats sitting in the chamber. Depending on the temperature sensitivity of the powder I believe it can be important.

You might find it easier to get your other guns to shoot with a powder other than Varget. I've had good luck with getting IMR-4064
to shoot the same as Varget in my .30-06.

Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: grumley701] #7375013
10/09/21 07:25 AM
10/09/21 07:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 44,128
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline
trapper
330-Trapper  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 44,128
Minnesota
Originally Posted by grumley701
Play with it, every barrel has it's favorites..

So true


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7375015
10/09/21 07:32 AM
10/09/21 07:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,352
Nevada
YamaCat Offline
trapper
YamaCat  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,352
Nevada
Looks like fun. Personally, I could never get my crosshairs to settle down when shooting at an orange fluorescent target. Maybe just my eyes, but I could never use them while dialing in a load for a “Turkey shoot”

Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7375071
10/09/21 08:41 AM
10/09/21 08:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 11,155
Finally run aground in TN
Scuba1 Offline
"color blind Kraut"
Scuba1  Offline
"color blind Kraut"

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 11,155
Finally run aground in TN
I have tried Tac and am not that impressed with it in the 223. RL15 is a good one if you have run out of Varget. DFE223 is ok as well and I use that for the high volume rounds as the ani fouling stuff they put in it seems to work quite well. If I can't get sub MOA I am not happy


I do all my own stunts ..... but never intentionally .................. Let's go Brandon
Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7375115
10/09/21 10:04 AM
10/09/21 10:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9,206
Northeast Oklahoma
M
Mike in A-town Offline
trapper
Mike in A-town  Offline
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M

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9,206
Northeast Oklahoma
With my AR-10 I have worked and worked on trying to tighten my groups... Heavier bullets, lighter bullets, different brass, powder, and primers, seating depth, increased buffer weights, new trigger... The trigger helped a bit, but really, no joy.

The only 2 things I haven't tried to correct...

1) I'm positive the gun is over gassed, brass gets beat to h€!!, flies to about 1:30 and stovepipes enough to make me think gas is an issue... (But could be my brass catcher contributing to that some) You can feel that BCG hammering that buffer to the bottom of the buffer tube. Rings like a bell. Probably need an adjustable gas block to tame it a bit. Possibly a stouter buffer spring too.

2) The adjustable butt stock is nearly impossible to keep on the rear bag and is fairly sloppy to begin with.

I also suspect my digital scope lacks the resolution for precision shooting... It's fine for minute-of-hog/deer to 300 yards or so, but not for trying to stack them in one hole at 100.

There's also a chance that I just got a crummy barrel... And it's a semi auto.

I realize none of my issues may equate to yours, but there are about 300 things to check when you're running a gas gun. Just a little food for thought.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7375238
10/09/21 01:26 PM
10/09/21 01:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,753
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
trapper
Wolfdog91  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,753
Amite county Mississippi
[Linked Image]

Well decided to get with the fastest load so far. Got 20rd loaded up backed off my original steering depth with was technically a little over the books Max mag length. Backed off 0.020 thou now I'm working back in O.003 incriminates.


Trappermans Resident Black Guy
The Black Redneck! 22yrs
MS National Guardsmen
I Like Moddin Traps 'N Trapping Possums
Go Ordnance!!!!
Tman Archivist
Re: Whatcha think about these groups ? [Re: Wolfdog91] #7375284
10/09/21 03:31 PM
10/09/21 03:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,753
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
trapper
Wolfdog91  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,753
Amite county Mississippi
Yeah guys looks like that slow load is gonna be it with this powder. No sure what elese I can do to make this work better .
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


Trappermans Resident Black Guy
The Black Redneck! 22yrs
MS National Guardsmen
I Like Moddin Traps 'N Trapping Possums
Go Ordnance!!!!
Tman Archivist
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