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Entry Level AR #7376632
10/11/21 10:25 AM
10/11/21 10:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 475
SC Iowa
btomlin Offline OP
trapper
btomlin  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 475
SC Iowa
I'm thinking about getting my 1st AR platform rifle. I am looking for something under $700, flat top, free floated handrail, 16-18" barrel.

It was a slow weekend so I started researching.....good lord, there is a lot of info out there! It is hard to tell the good info from the bad as I don't have a good vocabulary on the guns yet.

I was looking at a PSA MOE blem lower, but it seems like there is a major love/hate with the company. They also have a .223wylde 16" lower with a 1:8 twist. Anyone have any opinions on PSA guns?

Pros/Cons regarding:

16" vs 18" barrel
5.56 vs .223 wylde
What is best barrel twist to look for if majority of shooting would be with 55ish gr ammo. It seems a lot are mil spec at 1:7 which seems super fast.

Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7376645
10/11/21 10:44 AM
10/11/21 10:44 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,735
Green County Wisconsin
G
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper
GREENCOUNTYPETE  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,735
Green County Wisconsin
I have had no issue with the PSA rifles

buy the kit and build it on an Anderson if you can find them locally for reasonable money

had my sons PSA on an anderson at a 3 gun match 2 weeks ago

honestly if I were to build it again today only thing I would change is the scope mount as it is no longer available and the Vortex 2 inch cantilevered mount is a better design.

he was first round hits at 200 , 300 and at 400 he missed but had a nice group going in the sand right below the target that he couldn't see through the 2-7 , it was an ammunition issue he had found a box of my old handload and loaded it rather than my current load , it dropped off sooner than the new load does but the group was nice

[Linked Image]

at 2X also no issue running as close as about 5 yards on some paper targets that covers the possible range fairly well 5-400 yards with the correct ammo

the scope has a BDC retical on 7x it has hashes that line up at 1.5, 4.5 , 7.5 and 11 MOA as well as 2,4,6 moa right left for wind hold over




Last edited by GREENCOUNTYPETE; 10/11/21 11:17 AM.

America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7376649
10/11/21 10:49 AM
10/11/21 10:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,031
Rodney,Ohio
SNIPERB🦝 Online happy
trapper
SNIPERB🦝  Online Happy
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,031
Rodney,Ohio
S&W MP15 is a decent starter. [Linked Image]

Last edited by SNIPERB🦝; 10/11/21 10:50 AM.
Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7376652
10/11/21 10:50 AM
10/11/21 10:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 22,042
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 22,042
williamsburg ks
What do you want to do with it? That will determine how much you ought to pay.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7376654
10/11/21 10:50 AM
10/11/21 10:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 380
Montana
Deerkiller Offline
trapper
Deerkiller  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 380
Montana
Go with a 1 in 7 if you going to hunt with it.


[Linked Image]
Re: Entry Level AR [Re: SNIPERB🦝] #7376657
10/11/21 11:00 AM
10/11/21 11:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 7,282
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
trapper
Posco  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 7,282
Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted by SNIPERB🦝
S&W MP15 is a decent starter. [Linked Image]

I have the same rifle. I bought it as a SHTF gun. I like it.

Re: Entry Level AR [Re: danny clifton] #7376687
10/11/21 11:42 AM
10/11/21 11:42 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 475
SC Iowa
btomlin Offline OP
trapper
btomlin  Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 475
SC Iowa
Originally Posted by danny clifton
What do you want to do with it? That will determine how much you ought to pay.


Probably shoot it a few times and put it in the safe. Maybe the occasional "fun shoot" with the guys. Curious why 1:7 would be for hunting, DK?

Last edited by btomlin; 10/11/21 11:43 AM.
Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7376700
10/11/21 12:08 PM
10/11/21 12:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,735
Green County Wisconsin
G
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper
GREENCOUNTYPETE  Offline
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G

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,735
Green County Wisconsin
1:7 stabalizes a heavier bullet better also long for weight bullets like all copper bullets

i wouldn't sweat it a 1:8 will stabalize thing up to 70gr well

you are more likely to find a budget 1:7 because that is what the military is using currently so the tooling is paid for by contracts then they can produce more for private market on the same tooling


common twist rates are 1:9 , 1:8 and 1:7

1:9 bullet optimal range is 45-63

1:8 is 62-77gr

1:7 is 69-80gr

that is optimal the 1:7 in the picture I posted shoots 55gr hornady soft points about an inch at 100 yards

i have a heavy barrel 1 in 8 that shoots the same load into about 4 1/2 inches at 400 yards

for hunting bullets up to deer in size 55gr Hornady soft points work but don't expect exit wounds and keep off the shoulder

Winchester makes a 64gr power point that is decent for deer

the barns triple shock TSX stuff is good but expensive


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7376703
10/11/21 12:11 PM
10/11/21 12:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 5,166
Crivitz WI
Sprung & Rusty Offline
trapper
Sprung & Rusty  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 5,166
Crivitz WI
Build one.


No Jab.
Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7376706
10/11/21 12:13 PM
10/11/21 12:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 28,466
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
trapper
Law Dog  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 28,466
Central, SD
PSA you can buy a upper and lower pretty cheap lately.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7376725
10/11/21 12:50 PM
10/11/21 12:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,332
Northern Illinois
M
MChewk Offline
trapper
MChewk  Offline
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M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,332
Northern Illinois
Good informative post....does the S and W M&P 15 come in Wylde?

Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7376738
10/11/21 01:11 PM
10/11/21 01:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,466
ND
M
MJM Offline
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MJM  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,466
ND
I would look at Bear Creek Arsenal. They have a number of options in the $511-560 range. It would leave you money for a scope. I would go 1-8 twist in a 223 Wylde.


"Not Really, Not Really"
Mark J Monti
"MJM you're a jerk."
Re: Entry Level AR [Re: GREENCOUNTYPETE] #7376753
10/11/21 01:28 PM
10/11/21 01:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,665
Georgia
warrior Online content
trapper
warrior  Online Content
trapper

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,665
Georgia
Originally Posted by GREENCOUNTYPETE
1:7 stabalizes a heavier bullet better also long for weight bullets like all copper bullets

i wouldn't sweat it a 1:8 will stabalize thing up to 70gr well

you are more likely to find a budget 1:7 because that is what the military is using currently so the tooling is paid for by contracts then they can produce more for private market on the same tooling


common twist rates are 1:9 , 1:8 and 1:7

1:9 bullet optimal range is 45-63

1:8 is 62-77gr

1:7 is 69-80gr

that is optimal the 1:7 in the picture I posted shoots 55gr hornady soft points about an inch at 100 yards

i have a heavy barrel 1 in 8 that shoots the same load into about 4 1/2 inches at 400 yards

for hunting bullets up to deer in size 55gr Hornady soft points work but don't expect exit wounds and keep off the shoulder

Winchester makes a 64gr power point that is decent for deer

the barns triple shock TSX stuff is good but expensive


All spot on but might also point out it doesn't hurt as much to spin a bullet faster as not enough. Lighter can do okay in fast twist but usually not heavier in slow.

Re: Entry Level AR [Re: MChewk] #7376755
10/11/21 01:30 PM
10/11/21 01:30 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,735
Green County Wisconsin
G
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper
GREENCOUNTYPETE  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,735
Green County Wisconsin
Originally Posted by MChewk
Good informative post....does the S and W M&P 15 come in Wylde?



no but don't get hung up on it needing to be wylde 223/5.56nato chambers work find

wylde gets you slightly different chamber specs on the throat and lead which can make it shoot more accurately , however few people shoot well enough to notice the difference in most cases especally in an entry level rifle

also if you have a standard handguard you likely more than negate any difference that the chamber could make

when shooting with a sling you can see the effect of the sling pulling on the barrel when not running a free float handguard , putting the sling attachment mid handguard and not on the sling loop under the front sight made a difference for me to make it less effect the group when shooting from a sling

for complete guns that you can probably buy at a lcoal store the S&W and Ruger are good

building has it's benefits even if you order a PSA lower complete and an upper complete there is typically some savings not buying a complete rifle there is a tax on complete rifles not paid if you assemble your own.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7376759
10/11/21 01:34 PM
10/11/21 01:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,665
Georgia
warrior Online content
trapper
warrior  Online Content
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 14,665
Georgia
Another note on twist. The older A1 twist of 1:12 was optimized for the 55gr pill to just barely stabilize it and not much more as M193 military ball ammo depended upon yaw or destabilizing upon impact to increase wounding potential.

If you come across one of these stay away unless you're building a retro A1 clone. M193 ball is fun to shoot but there are better options available these days.

Re: Entry Level AR [Re: warrior] #7376760
10/11/21 01:38 PM
10/11/21 01:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,735
Green County Wisconsin
G
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper
GREENCOUNTYPETE  Offline
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G

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,735
Green County Wisconsin
Originally Posted by warrior
Originally Posted by GREENCOUNTYPETE
1:7 stabalizes a heavier bullet better also long for weight bullets like all copper bullets

i wouldn't sweat it a 1:8 will stabalize thing up to 70gr well

you are more likely to find a budget 1:7 because that is what the military is using currently so the tooling is paid for by contracts then they can produce more for private market on the same tooling


common twist rates are 1:9 , 1:8 and 1:7

1:9 bullet optimal range is 45-63

1:8 is 62-77gr

1:7 is 69-80gr

that is optimal the 1:7 in the picture I posted shoots 55gr Hornady soft points about an inch at 100 yards

i have a heavy barrel 1 in 8 that shoots the same load into about 4 1/2 inches at 400 yards

for hunting bullets up to deer in size 55gr Hornady soft points work but don't expect exit wounds and keep off the shoulder

Winchester makes a 64gr power point that is decent for deer

the barns triple shock TSX stuff is good but expensive


All spot on but might also point out it doesn't hurt as much to spin a bullet faster as not enough. Lighter can do okay in fast twist but usually not heavier in slow.

very true , the 55gr shoot fine to 400 for us from 1:7 never tried further the 55gr Hornady soft points shoot fine to 500 for us from the 1:8 never tried further

FMJ bullets are formed tip to tail and soft points are tail to tip , this changes the balance of bullets and may have more effect than the twist

62gr green tips are a steel tip and don't balance as well as lead core soft points and hollow points

the twist of your barrel be it 7, 8 or 9 probably makes less difference on 55-69gr ammo than the ammo it's self if you shoot heavy bullets you need more twist , hoe many of us really shoot 77gr or heavier , probably not that many I get good hits at 400 on targets from inexpensive 55gr soft points I was buying for 100 dollars the thousand they are about 129 per thousand now that is the shortage we live in. (bullet not loaded ammo prices)


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: Entry Level AR [Re: MChewk] #7376786
10/11/21 02:04 PM
10/11/21 02:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,031
Rodney,Ohio
SNIPERB🦝 Online happy
trapper
SNIPERB🦝  Online Happy
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,031
Rodney,Ohio
Originally Posted by MChewk
Good informative post....does the S and W M&P 15 come in Wylde?

Its stamped 5.56 NATO 1/9 twist. I dont think S&W offer different uppers if you wanted something a bit more performance wise. The regular M&P 15 comes with a 1/8 twist barrel and some more upgrades, but costs about twice as much...So if you wanted something a little more .223 friendly for longer range shooting, youd have to track down another upper or look at another gun completely.

Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7377465
10/12/21 11:10 AM
10/12/21 11:10 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,735
Green County Wisconsin
G
GREENCOUNTYPETE Offline
trapper
GREENCOUNTYPETE  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,735
Green County Wisconsin
Here is a mid length kit you would need a stripper lower to complete
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...-kit-with-mbus-sight-set-5165449492.html


They also have a carbine lenght kit for a few dollars less

it has iron sights that come with it and their EPT trigger it is a step up from base level trigger it is their enhanced polished trigger.


here is a blem complete lower with the EPT trigger for 140 https://palmettostatearmory.com/blem-psa-ar-15-complete-lower-magpul-moe-ept-edition-black.html

here is an upper with sights , charging handle and BCG for 300 https://palmettostatearmory.com/lab...e-upper-with-mbus-rear-bcg-ch-black.html

440 +shipping and transfer fee for an AR is about as cheap as it gets

you can go up from there if you want the free float or other features look for the upper you want

hard to beat that lower for 140 a LPK lower parts kit with MOE stock and EPT trigger is 70 for the LPK and 50 for the stock and buffer tube even if you can get a stripper lower for 50 dollars your over what they have the built one for.


America only has one issue, we have a Responsibility crisis and everything else stems from it.
Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7377598
10/12/21 02:52 PM
10/12/21 02:52 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 4,663
SW Georgia
W
Wanna Be Offline
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Wanna Be  Offline
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Posts: 4,663
SW Georgia
Right now you ought to be able to find several decent 15ís for $700.

Re: Entry Level AR [Re: btomlin] #7378044
10/13/21 08:19 AM
10/13/21 08:19 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,332
Northern Illinois
M
MChewk Offline
trapper
MChewk  Offline
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M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,332
Northern Illinois
Checked out Bear Creek Arsenalís....nice variety....thanks MJM.
Opinions on their quality....you donít hear much about them.

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