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Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7454408
01/08/22 04:16 PM
01/08/22 04:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 905
IL
I
ILcooner Offline
trapper
ILcooner  Offline
trapper
I

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 905
IL


Now what is the REAL cost when temps are less than 32° during the winter??? Free comfort while driving with the internal combustion engine.[/quote]

Yep we dont all live in so calif.

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: 3togo] #7454420
01/08/22 04:29 PM
01/08/22 04:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 33,275
McGrath, AK
W
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
white17  Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
W

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 33,275
McGrath, AK
Originally Posted by 3togo
Many years ago when I was still working an article in a manufacturing trade magazine looked at the ENTIRE life cycle of producing and disposing of an electric car.

The end result was that it caused a larger hazardous waste problem than a standard fossil fuel vehicle over its entire life on earth.

And that does not include the smoke that is being blown up US citizens orifices.



I received this last week. No idea how valid it is but it certainly raises some pertinent questions.





The packed auditorium was abuzz with questions about the presentation; nobody seemed to know what to expect. The only hint was a large aluminum block sitting on a sturdy table on the stage.


When the crowd settled down, a scholarly-looking man walked out and put his hand on the shiny block, “Good evening,” he said, “I am here to introduce NMC532-X,” and he patted the block, “we call him NM for short,” and the man smiled proudly. “NM is a typical electric vehicle (EV) car battery in every way except one; we programmed him to send signals of the internal movements of his electrons when charging, discharging, and in several other conditions. We wanted to know what it feels like to be a battery. We don’t know how it happened, but NM began to talk after we downloaded the program.

Despite this ability, we put him in a car for a year and then asked him if he’d like to do presentations about batteries. He readily agreed on the condition he could say whatever he wanted. We thought that was fine, and so, without further ado, I’ll turn the floor over to NM,” the man turned and walked off the stage.

“Good evening,” NM said. He had a slightly affected accent, and when he spoke, he lit up in different colors. “That cheeky woman on the marquee was my idea,” he said. “Were she not there, along with ‘naked’ in the title, I’d likely be speaking to an empty auditorium! I also had them add ‘shocking’ because it’s a favorite word amongst us batteries.” He flashed a light blue color as he laughed.

“Sorry,” NM giggled then continued, “three days ago, at the start of my last lecture, three people walked out. I suppose they were disappointed there would be no dancing girls. But here is what I noticed about them. One was wearing a battery-powered hearing aid, one tapped on his battery-powered cell phone as he left, and a third got into his car, which would not start without a battery. So, I’d like you to think about your day for a moment; how many batteries do you rely on?”

He paused for a full minute which gave us time to count our batteries. Then he went on, “Now, it is not elementary to ask, ‘what is a battery?’ I think Tesla said it best when they called us Energy Storage Systems. That’s important. We do not make electricity – we store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid. Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, n’est-ce pas?”


He flashed blue again. “Einstein’s formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.”

He lit up red when he said that, and I sensed he was smiling. Then he continued in blue and orange. “Mr. Elkay introduced me as NMC532. If I were the battery from your computer mouse, Elkay would introduce me as double-A, if from your cell phone as CR2032, and so on. We batteries all have the same name depending on our design. By the way, the ‘X’ in my name stands for ‘experimental.’

There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.

Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium.



The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.

All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old, ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery’s metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.

In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle batteries like me or care to dispose of single-use ones properly.


But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive embedded costs.”



NM got redder as he spoke. “Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject.

In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the embedded costs in the can of beans.

The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas.

Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost. Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon. Then it’s back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.


But wait - can you guess one of the highest but rarely acknowledged embedded costs?” NM said, then gave us about thirty seconds to make our guesses. Then he flashed his lights and said, “It’s the depreciation on the 5000-pound car you used to transport one pound of canned beans!”

NM took on a golden glow, and I thought he might have winked. He said, “But that can of beans is nothing compared to me! I am hundreds of times more complicated. My embedded costs not only come in the form of energy use; they come as environmental destruction, pollution, disease, child labor, and the inability to be recycled.”



He paused, “I weigh one thousand pounds, and as you see, I am about the size of a travel trunk.” NM’s lights showed he was serious. “I contain twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside me are 6,831 individual lithium-ion cells.

It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each auto battery like me, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth’s crust for just - one - battery.”



He let that one sink in, then added, “I mentioned disease and child labor a moment ago. Here’s why. Sixty-eight percent of the world’s cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?”


NM’s red and orange light made it look like he was on fire. “Finally,” he said, “I’d like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being ‘green,’ but it is not! This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.



The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium-diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.


Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades. Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.

NM lights dimmed, and he quietly said, “There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent. I’m trying to do my part with these lectures.


Mean As Nails
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7454422
01/08/22 04:31 PM
01/08/22 04:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,957
MN
D
Donnersurvivor Offline
trapper
Donnersurvivor  Offline
trapper
D

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,957
MN
Ide love a little electric car for running bids, going grocery shopping etc but the prices are to high. The tacoma looks more professional on bids and the 1200 Honda civic is fine for groceries or running for parts

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7454461
01/08/22 05:43 PM
01/08/22 05:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 24,654
nm
A
adam m Offline
trapper
adam m  Offline
trapper
A

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 24,654
nm
I'd hate to pass by a e vehicle on fire.

To mine lithium is insane and not many places have it. Plus the Chinese own the majority of lithium mines in the world

[Linked Image]


Last edited by adam m; 01/08/22 05:49 PM. Reason: Photo & text
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7454463
01/08/22 05:48 PM
01/08/22 05:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 10,496
Oakland, MS
Drifter Offline
trapper
Drifter  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 10,496
Oakland, MS
Something to think about. Everything we use in life is either raised or it has to be mined. Like White said it would be interesting to see these claims backed up with verifiable data.


Experience only teaches the teachable.

Aldous Huxley









Life member NTA , and GA Trappers assoc .
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7454467
01/08/22 06:02 PM
01/08/22 06:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 24,158
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 24,158
williamsburg ks
i dont need to think about it. i already have. I dont plan to get one. My great great granddad never owned any kind of car. I will ride a horse I guess. Pull a wagon to town 3-4 times a year. Take fewer and shorter trips.

anybody know where i can get a nice pair of Percherons? couple collars?


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7454484
01/08/22 06:23 PM
01/08/22 06:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,839
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
trapper
Law Dog  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,839
Central, SD
So where will the road tax come into play then? How many ways will they tax us for this so will the charger be metered or will the yearly milage be targeted like they are trying to pull now? Just the long way around the barn to tax you more for what you never wanted to begin with smoke and mirrors nothing more.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7454497
01/08/22 06:34 PM
01/08/22 06:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,130
Missouri
H
HayDay Offline
trapper
HayDay  Offline
trapper
H

Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,130
Missouri
I was thinking more of which politicians had been bought off. The more one finds out about how that works, the less it surprises us they sell us out. What surprised me the most was how cheaply they can be bought. They trade thousands for millions and millions for multi-billions in benefits and favors. What they have to sell is preference and protection....in all their many forms.

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: HayDay] #7454500
01/08/22 06:39 PM
01/08/22 06:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,839
Central, SD
Law Dog Offline
trapper
Law Dog  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 29,839
Central, SD
Yo
Originally Posted by HayDay
I was thinking more of which politicians had been bought off. The more one finds out about how that works, the less it surprises us they sell us out. What surprised me the most was how cheaply they can be bought. They trade thousands for millions and millions for multi-billions in benefits and favors. What they have to sell is preference and protection....in all their many forms.



They can spend billions to get million when the billion is not coming out of their pockets, a cheap investment on their part.


Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!

Jerry Herbst
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7454517
01/08/22 06:59 PM
01/08/22 06:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,246
Henry Co, IL
3
3togo Offline
trapper
3togo  Offline
trapper
3

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,246
Henry Co, IL
Taxpayer subsidies can make a lot happen. Even when no monetary proof is available that says it's a good plan. No private enterprise would build windmills at its own expense, no return on investment. Smoke and mirrors.

My older brother leased an electric car last year. Upstate NY. It's about useless in the winter. Half the battery range, and if it spins when starting to back out of the driveway it kills the motor.

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7454531
01/08/22 07:10 PM
01/08/22 07:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,901
7mtns of CENTRAL PA
GROUSEWIT Offline
trapper
GROUSEWIT  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,901
7mtns of CENTRAL PA
So after 10 yrs when battry needs replacement- the trade in value is $0?


NRALIFER,HUNTER,FURTAKER(PTA)(FTA)(NMTA)(RMEF)
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7454541
01/08/22 07:20 PM
01/08/22 07:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,513
Duluth, MN
C
Clark Offline
trapper
Clark  Offline
trapper
C

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,513
Duluth, MN
I love how this board becomes very anti-mining when electric cars are brought up.

Or you start to think about long-term disposal for batteries but not when nuclear energy is the topic.

About the cost of fueling an electric vs internal combustion engine vehicle: The IRS rates for mileage are something like 57¢/mile which is largely based on ICE engine vehicles. Why do they allow that rate instead of 6-10¢ you are all chirping about?


Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -Albert Einstein
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: danny clifton] #7454547
01/08/22 07:22 PM
01/08/22 07:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 11,819
Greene County,Virginia
R
run Offline
trapper
run  Offline
trapper
R

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 11,819
Greene County,Virginia
Originally Posted by danny clifton
i dont need to think about it. i already have. I dont plan to get one. My great great granddad never owned any kind of car. I will ride a horse I guess. Pull a wagon to town 3-4 times a year. Take fewer and shorter trips.

anybody know where i can get a nice pair of Percherons? couple collars?

Well said, Danny.


wanna be goat farmer.
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: danny clifton] #7454548
01/08/22 07:22 PM
01/08/22 07:22 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 12,427
Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30 Offline
trapper
yotetrapper30  Offline
trapper

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 12,427
Oakland, MS
Originally Posted by danny clifton
i dont need to think about it. i already have. I dont plan to get one. My great great granddad never owned any kind of car. I will ride a horse I guess. Pull a wagon to town 3-4 times a year. Take fewer and shorter trips.

anybody know where i can get a nice pair of Percherons? couple collars?


Shining Stars Percherons, Altoona IA looks like the closest to you. LOL


~~Proud Ultra MAGA~~
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: Clark] #7454555
01/08/22 07:24 PM
01/08/22 07:24 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 12,427
Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30 Offline
trapper
yotetrapper30  Offline
trapper

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 12,427
Oakland, MS
Originally Posted by Clark

About the cost of fueling an electric vs internal combustion engine vehicle: The IRS rates for mileage are something like 57¢/mile which is largely based on ICE engine vehicles. Why do they allow that rate instead of 6-10¢ you are all chirping about?


I'm guessing because the IRS is considering wear and tear and depreciation while the people on here are only quoting gas usage.


~~Proud Ultra MAGA~~
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: Clark] #7454570
01/08/22 07:38 PM
01/08/22 07:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,106
Sandhills Nebraska
G
Gary Benson Offline
trapper
Gary Benson  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,106
Sandhills Nebraska
Originally Posted by Clark
I love how this board becomes very anti-mining when electric cars are brought up.

Or you start to think about long-term disposal for batteries but not when nuclear energy is the topic.

About the cost of fueling an electric vs internal combustion engine vehicle: The IRS rates for mileage are something like 57¢/mile which is largely based on ICE engine vehicles. Why do they allow that rate instead of 6-10¢ you are all chirping about?

Sounds like Minnesota is becoming another California/N'Yolk/Colorado.......


I know I'm paranoid......but am I paranoid ENOUGH???
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7454572
01/08/22 07:39 PM
01/08/22 07:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,106
Sandhills Nebraska
G
Gary Benson Offline
trapper
Gary Benson  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,106
Sandhills Nebraska
Eventually the whole country will be covered with landfills and cemeteries. There are problems in some areas with formaldahyde (sp) leaking from cemeteries. Landfills are already a yuge problem. Other than the methane gas that can be extracted from the really big landfills. There is a yuge Waste Connections landfill right in the heart of St Louis. Doesn't change the looks of the town much though......

Last edited by Gary Benson; 01/08/22 07:42 PM.

I know I'm paranoid......but am I paranoid ENOUGH???
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: Gary Benson] #7454754
01/08/22 10:50 PM
01/08/22 10:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,513
Duluth, MN
C
Clark Offline
trapper
Clark  Offline
trapper
C

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,513
Duluth, MN
Originally Posted by Gary Benson
[quote=Clark]Sounds like Minnesota is becoming another California/N'Yolk/Colorado.......


I love how, when posed with questions and circumstances that you can’t answer, you instantly go to attacking the person. FYI, that is usually a sign that you have lost the argument either because you don’t know enough about the topic or you can’t come back with a logical argument. Follow yotetrapper, they are onto something.


Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -Albert Einstein
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7454779
01/08/22 11:17 PM
01/08/22 11:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 10,496
Oakland, MS
Drifter Offline
trapper
Drifter  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 10,496
Oakland, MS
May have missed it but don't recall seeing the cold weather and effects it has on charging a battery. They also loose part of their charge just by getting cooler.


Experience only teaches the teachable.

Aldous Huxley









Life member NTA , and GA Trappers assoc .
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: Clark] #7454820
01/09/22 01:03 AM
01/09/22 01:03 AM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9,960
Northeast Oklahoma
M
Mike in A-town Offline
trapper
Mike in A-town  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 9,960
Northeast Oklahoma
Originally Posted by Clark
I love how this board becomes very anti-mining when electric cars are brought up.

Or you start to think about long-term disposal for batteries but not when nuclear energy is the topic.

About the cost of fueling an electric vs internal combustion engine vehicle: The IRS rates for mileage are something like 57¢/mile which is largely based on ICE engine vehicles. Why do they allow that rate instead of 6-10¢ you are all chirping about?


I don't think members here are necessarily against mining. I think they are pointing out the "hypocrisy" of people who are opposed to the environmental impacts of extracting petroleum, but ignore the impact of mining the raw materials to produce batteries/EV's.

There seems to be a good deal of ignorance (a lot of it willful) about "paying the piper" when it comes to EV's.

Whether it's gas or electric, somebody somewhere is poking a hole in the ground at some point.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
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