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Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7458356
01/12/22 12:24 PM
01/12/22 12:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,943
Ohio
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Willy Firewood Offline
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Ohio
How about putting a generator in the trunk connect it to the car and run it with the trunk lid open while driving? A perpetual motion machine!

The ignorant politicians appear to think that electricity is free in most places. Just charge your car at work = employee theft!

At a hospital they have free charging for electric cars but not free diesel fuel for my truck!

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: Drifter] #7458782
01/12/22 08:22 PM
01/12/22 08:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,513
Duluth, MN
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Clark Offline
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Clark  Offline
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Originally Posted by Drifter
I see nothing to back YOUR assumptions. I gave you links to what I have said. I am now retired and worked several years in a mine as a maintenance mechanic among other maintenance jobs. It was always accepted you warm up your equipment to operating temperatures before you put it to work. Even in a mine where the temperatures were 65 degrees year round.

When starting equipment in the rock quarry it took much longer then 5 minutes to warm that up especially below 0. Saw several times drivers/operators fired on the spot for revving equipment up that was too cold. The oil doesn't flow right until it is warmed up. There is good reason why in Alaska they have heaters in their trucks that run off LP and they plug them in other then just to get them to start.

You haven't addressed and completely ignored the information about the difficulties of charging the E V batteries below 32 degrees and the decreased range. All I see is a run around the Mulberry bush saying I am right and you are wrong with NOTHING to back it up. Give us facts to back your opinion and change our minds.

Importance of warming an engine

Here is why you should warm an engine.


Several things Drifter. Iím not and never will refute the physics of charging a battery at low temperatures. I havenít indicated anything contrary to that in this entire discussion. In fact, this thread was never about that or warming your engine; we are way off topic.

Second, you think that guidelines for an airplane engine apply to automotive engines? The masses drive automobiles, a very few select fly. When you put down that amount of money you expect to have higher maintenance needs. GM manufacturers something that a meth addicted high school drop-out canít ruin by simply turning it on and driving. Information sources to back this up:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ou-need-to-idle-your-car-before-driving/

https://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/blog/driving/why-you-shouldnt-idle-car-in-cold/#

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-to/a3891/4301503/

https://www.businessinsider.com/her...g-to-your-engine-and-its-not-good-2016-1

There is a huge difference between gasoline automobiles and diesel/diesel and hydraulic vehicles. We are focusing on gas autos only.

White - That is an interesting set of data that Iím sure is replayed to some extent all across AK and Canada. Iíve had vehicles that donít seem to like starting below 0 and others that seem unaffected. But letís face it, in the lower 48 if you have a garage and a fuel-injected vehicle it is highly unlikely you will have cold-related issues starting your vehicle.

I donít know about an EV battery producing heat on discharge. Iím guessing they like to avoid that since it probably leads to premature degradation. But I have no real clue about that particular issue.

Last edited by Clark; 01/12/22 08:24 PM.

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -Albert Einstein
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: Clark] #7458788
01/12/22 08:27 PM
01/12/22 08:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,082
SW PA
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white marlin Offline
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Originally Posted by Clark
There is a huge difference between gasoline automobiles and diesel/diesel and hydraulic vehicles. We are focusing on gas autos only.


isn't diesel a fossil fuel?

hmmm...thought it WAS!



Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: white marlin] #7458803
01/12/22 08:39 PM
01/12/22 08:39 PM
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Posts: 14,735
pa
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hippie Offline
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Originally Posted by white marlin
Originally Posted by Clark
There is a huge difference between gasoline automobiles and diesel/diesel and hydraulic vehicles. We are focusing on gas autos only.


isn't diesel a fossil fuel?

hmmm...thought it WAS!


He has no answers other than don't warm your golf cart up.

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7458806
01/12/22 08:42 PM
01/12/22 08:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,610
Michigan
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Michigander Offline
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Michigander  Offline
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Michigan
Wow there is a bunch of closed minded people here.


Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7458823
01/12/22 08:57 PM
01/12/22 08:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 14,735
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hippie Offline
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Or are they smart enough to see the farce that our tax dollars are being wasted on?

How much did Obama waste on solar , which most companies he gave hundreds of millions to didn't last a year?

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: hippie] #7458826
01/12/22 09:00 PM
01/12/22 09:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,411
new york
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mike mason Offline
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new york
Originally Posted by hippie
Or are they smart enough to see the farce that our tax dollars are being wasted on?

How much did Obama waste on solar , which most companies he gave hundreds of millions to didn't last a year?

Remember the Buffalo Billions here in NY?

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7458837
01/12/22 09:08 PM
01/12/22 09:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 3,740
Indiana
P
Providence Farm Online content
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Indiana
When they make a 4x4 3/4 ton that can drive 600 kile with the heat or ac with radio on and charge in less than 30 min i may think about one. Is short its not likely to happen.

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7458844
01/12/22 09:12 PM
01/12/22 09:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 10,496
Oakland, MS
Drifter Offline
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Cold weather warm up

You can find support for either side on the internet.

"The oil is the lifeblood of the engine," Joseph Henmueller, president and COO of Automotive Maintenance and Repair Association, said.

Henmueller suggested that cars should idle one to two minutes before driving in cold weather. When temperatures drop to freezing, or when it's cold enough that windshields will frost over, the oil needs to warm up before it can move smoothly throughout the car.

"Fluids get thicker when it is cold, so to lubricate properly they need 60 to 120 seconds of the engine running," he said.

Without properly letting the engine run, Henmueller said, you may be cutting your engine's life short.

I used the diesel engine as an example because I have been through them much more then the newer gas burners. They are basically the same only much higher compression in a diesel engine. You still need engine oil flowing to lubricate as well as cool the engine no matter if is a gas car, airplane or a diesel powered big rig.


Experience only teaches the teachable.

Aldous Huxley









Life member NTA , and GA Trappers assoc .
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: Michigander] #7458850
01/12/22 09:14 PM
01/12/22 09:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,082
SW PA
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white marlin Offline
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Originally Posted by Michigander
Wow there is a bunch of closed minded people here.


please explain.

are electric vehicles as viable nation-wide (Today!) as petroleum-based fuel vehicles are?



Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: Michigander] #7458851
01/12/22 09:15 PM
01/12/22 09:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,007
Iowa
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trapdog1 Offline
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Originally Posted by Michigander
Wow there is a bunch of closed minded people here.

Just realistic.

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7458873
01/12/22 09:31 PM
01/12/22 09:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 9,345
Armpit, ak
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Dirt Offline
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I think I figured out part of the problem. Clark is a bit ignorant on how things work. Diesel and gasoline engines are pretty similar in how they work. They are both Internal combustion engines

"Most truck and automotive diesel engines use a cycle reminiscent of a four-stroke cycle, but with compression heating causing ignition, rather than needing a separate ignition system. This variation is called the diesel cycle. In the diesel cycle, diesel fuel is injected directly into the cylinder so that combustion occurs at constant pressure, as the piston moves."


Who is John Galt?
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: danvee] #7458875
01/12/22 09:32 PM
01/12/22 09:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,053
Virginia
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52Carl Offline
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Originally Posted by danvee
Might not be long until you pull into and truck stop and they change out the battery with a fresh one. Im not big on the idea but its coming along and the interstate system never happened over night.

There would be a number of issues with that scenario.
We're not talking about popping the hood and pull out a 12 volt battery. Some of these heavy battery packs are arranged inside of the chassis for weight distribution reasons.
Another problem is, these battery packs are very expensive. If the service station were to take out your battery in exchange for their battery, but later on find out that your old battery was nor serviceable, he'd be out a huge chunk of money. $10,000?

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7458961
01/12/22 10:33 PM
01/12/22 10:33 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,269
Kansas
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Kansas Cat Offline
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Kansas
I haven't driven anything with anything other than heated leather for many years. When I lived in a cold climate , block heaters were plugged in religiously. After thirty below starting was a problem unless the block heater was working properly. It always amazed me how quickly a plugged in vehicle began to emit warm air from the heater vents. Many materials that are flexible/pliable at normal temperatures are extremely brittle in extremely cold temperatures. I haven't been in a car for years. Are all cheaper cars made with cloth seats now? Back in the day, speedometer cables broke, seats split, dashboards broke in half and tires had a flat spot for awhile.

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7458974
01/12/22 10:49 PM
01/12/22 10:49 PM
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nm
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adam m Offline
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I was thinking about this thread this morning after a random thought popped up.
How will a typical family recharge 3+ vehicles overnight? How many people don't park in the garage? That's a massive panel upgrade and possibly a whole house amp upgrade and outdoors charging areas.
Each e vehicle prefers you charge with 220v with their special plug. So 3 + stations would be needed at a typical house.

My 3 kids are 3.5 years apart from oldest to youngest. That's a minimum of 4 cars at my house when they are all in high school. Not including their friends cars.

Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7459060
01/13/22 12:17 AM
01/13/22 12:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 10,496
Oakland, MS
Drifter Offline
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The real big jump in time to recharge is when it gets below freezing. Charging below 0c


Experience only teaches the teachable.

Aldous Huxley









Life member NTA , and GA Trappers assoc .
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: Dirt] #7459067
01/13/22 12:28 AM
01/13/22 12:28 AM
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Duluth, MN
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Clark Offline
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Originally Posted by white marlin
isn't diesel a fossil fuel?

hmmm...thought it WAS!


I always thought you were more gracious than that. Or was it that you were shown grace? The argument at this point was about vehicles that warm up and how fast they do it. Drifter was bringing into the discussion industrial mining equipment and I wanted to make sure we were not comparing those engines to something made for the masses by GM or Toyota. Which brings us to Dirtís comment:

Originally Posted by Dirt
I think I figured out part of the problem. Clark is a bit ignorant on how things work. Diesel and gasoline engines are pretty similar in how they work. They are both Internal combustion enginesÖ


I am ignorant about most things and why diesel engines in passenger vehicles donít warm up as fast as gas engines is certainly one of them. However, I am well aware that both are internal combustion engines.

Back to Drifterís post about letting an engine warm up for ď60-120 secondsĒ. If the oil is thick enough that the pump wonít properly supply oil to the engine then warming it up wonít help. The damage is done in the first seconds of operation. No lubrication = damage. Not any way out of that equation. Either the oil is thin enough to be pumped or itís getting thick enough to cause damage upon startup. So either start it up and hope for the best (probably fine for any modern engine in the lower 48) or plug in a heater of some sort.


Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. -Albert Einstein
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7459091
01/13/22 12:56 AM
01/13/22 12:56 AM
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Oakland, MS
Drifter Offline
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Quote
If the oil is thick enough that the pump wonít properly supply oil to the engine then warming it up wonít help.


Where did you come up with this? Ever notice when doing a cold start the engine oil light is on? If you were to pay attention it does take longer in cold weather before it goes out and even longer after an oil change.

The main reason a diesel passenger vehicle takes longer to heat up is because there is so much more mass to heat. Heavier engine, half again the amount of oil and a big massive radiator.


Experience only teaches the teachable.

Aldous Huxley









Life member NTA , and GA Trappers assoc .
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: uplandpointer] #7459163
01/13/22 06:38 AM
01/13/22 06:38 AM
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Sandhills Nebraska
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Gary Benson Offline
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Sandhills Nebraska
If you think there are alot of homeless people and working folks on foot in the cities now, just you wait until everyone is supposed to drive an EV. The folks driving old hoopies now will be walking. If you think the store shelves are bare now, wait until farmers are expected to farm with electric tractors. laugh And trucking companies can't hire enough drivers now, wait until all the semis are electric! #bidenbuildbackbetter

Last edited by Gary Benson; 01/13/22 06:40 AM.

I know I'm paranoid......but am I paranoid ENOUGH???
Re: Cost of Charging Electric Car [Re: adam m] #7459169
01/13/22 06:51 AM
01/13/22 06:51 AM
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Iowa
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trapdog1 Offline
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Iowa
Originally Posted by adam m
I was thinking about this thread this morning after a random thought popped up.
How will a typical family recharge 3+ vehicles overnight? How many people don't park in the garage? That's a massive panel upgrade and possibly a whole house amp upgrade and outdoors charging areas.
Each e vehicle prefers you charge with 220v with their special plug. So 3 + stations would be needed at a typical house.

My 3 kids are 3.5 years apart from oldest to youngest. That's a minimum of 4 cars at my house when they are all in high school. Not including their friends cars.

Your family won't be able to afford 3 vehicles anymore. You can have one, and I guess also depend on public transit or something. This is where this is all headed. Welcome to the America the lefties are building.

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