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Gunsmiths: short fire forming #7485211
02/04/22 09:06 PM
02/04/22 09:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 11,771
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
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Wolfdog91  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 11,771
Amite county Mississippi
Ok need to ask this because I'm super curious. Why would a rifle fire from brass short instead of longer ? And I'm talking about with full power factory ammo

Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Wolfdog91] #7485222
02/04/22 09:16 PM
02/04/22 09:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,150
Tennessee
Scuba1 Offline
"color blind Kraut"
Scuba1  Offline
"color blind Kraut"

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,150
Tennessee
As the chamber you are forming into is larger than the cartridge, the material that has to cover the new found areas has to come from somewhere and that is the length of the brass. Fired brass is also shorter than a piece you have run through the die. The same applies in reverse. The die is smaller than the brass and so the extra material has to go some place ...... in this case it gets longer.


Let's go Brandon

"Shall not comply" with morons who don't understand "shall not infringe."
Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Scuba1] #7485228
02/04/22 09:19 PM
02/04/22 09:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,482
Ne pa
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Jerry Jr. Offline
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Jerry Jr.  Offline
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Ne pa
Originally Posted by Scuba1
As the chamber you are forming into is larger than the cartridge, the material that has to cover the new found areas has to come from somewhere and that is the length of the brass. Fired brass is also shorter than a piece you have run through the die. The same applies in reverse. The die is smaller than the brass and so the extra material has to go some place ...... in this case it gets longer.


He is talking about the shoulder.

Wolfdog- Did you measure the fireformed ones before or after you annealed them?


Time is more precious than gold if you know how to spend it
.... but what do I know, I'm just a dumb farmer.~My Dad
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Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Scuba1] #7485248
02/04/22 09:33 PM
02/04/22 09:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 11,771
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
trapper
Wolfdog91  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 11,771
Amite county Mississippi
Originally Posted by Scuba1
As the chamber you are forming into is larger than the cartridge, the material that has to cover the new found areas has to come from somewhere and that is the length of the brass. Fired brass is also shorter than a piece you have run through the die. The same applies in reverse. The die is smaller than the brass and so the extra material has to go some place ...... in this case it gets longer.

Ahhhh ok. O was thinking mabye had to do something with a larger chamber ,I remember reading about how these H&R's are notorious for having giraffe throats so kinda though a loose chamber wouldn't be too far off

Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Jerry Jr.] #7485249
02/04/22 09:33 PM
02/04/22 09:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 11,771
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
trapper
Wolfdog91  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 11,771
Amite county Mississippi
Originally Posted by Jerry Jr.
Originally Posted by Scuba1
As the chamber you are forming into is larger than the cartridge, the material that has to cover the new found areas has to come from somewhere and that is the length of the brass. Fired brass is also shorter than a piece you have run through the die. The same applies in reverse. The die is smaller than the brass and so the extra material has to go some place ...... in this case it gets longer.


He is talking about the shoulder.

Wolfdog- Did you measure the fireformed ones before or after you annealed them?

Before and after

Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Wolfdog91] #7485290
02/04/22 10:08 PM
02/04/22 10:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 135
NC
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garyll1959 Offline
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NC
Wolf, for my match / F class rifles, I don't consider the brass fully formed until the third firing. First shot, they're usually short. Neck sized, loaded and shot the second time. After the second shot, the shoulder is pretty much where it needs to be, so resized in a neck bushing die for the third firing. After the third, brass gets annealed, and resized with a body die that's cut with the same reamer that cut the chamber in the barrel,, setting shoulder bump to about 1 thou., just to the point that the bolt has no resistance on closing on the resized brass. Neck diameter is set for about one and a half thousandths of neck tension, keep in mind this is for single load, bolt actions.
After the third firing, it's the same routine for the life of the brass.. Anneal, 1 thou. shoulder bump, set neck tension.
For the AR match rifles, it's pretty much the same, except I use a full length resizing die, set for about 2 and a half thousandths shoulder bump and 3 thou neck tension.

Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Wolfdog91] #7485862
02/05/22 02:04 PM
02/05/22 02:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,770
N.W. Iowa
T
Tactical.20 Offline
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Tactical.20  Offline
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N.W. Iowa
I fire form my t.20 with a reduced load of powder

Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Wolfdog91] #7485915
02/05/22 03:25 PM
02/05/22 03:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,067
Wyoming
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cmcf Offline
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cmcf  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2015
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Wyoming
Sloppy chamber; Scuba nailed it


“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli

Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Wolfdog91] #7485919
02/05/22 03:30 PM
02/05/22 03:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,067
Wyoming
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cmcf Offline
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Wyoming
You get the same effects when fire forming for an Ackley Improved. First couple fireings brass is short


“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli

Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Wolfdog91] #7485920
02/05/22 03:31 PM
02/05/22 03:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,067
Wyoming
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cmcf Offline
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Wyoming
You get the same effects when fire forming for an Ackley Improved. First couple fireings brass is short


“The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined” B. Disraeli

Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Wolfdog91] #7485946
02/05/22 04:25 PM
02/05/22 04:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,404
Northeast Oklahoma
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Mike in A-town Offline
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Northeast Oklahoma
Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Ok need to ask this because I'm super curious. Why would a rifle fire from brass short instead of longer ? And I'm talking about with full power factory ammo


Am I picking up on this right... your "base to shoulder" length is shorter after firing than before it was fired?

Edit: I'm tired... had to read what Scuba wrote again... He nailed it.

Mike


Last edited by Mike in A-town; 02/05/22 04:34 PM.

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Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Wolfdog91] #7486509
02/06/22 12:57 AM
02/06/22 12:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 11,771
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
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Wolfdog91  Offline OP
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Amite county Mississippi
Ok so I'm going over this brass after shooting today. So according to the Hornady book I should sending these bullets out at cost to 2800fps on the low end However my chrono was telling me numbers like 2230 which I just checked up to it being weird idk. But ummm...most of this brass got even shorter. Everything was either sized down to or fired formed at 1.450-1.451 now alot of these are measuring around 1.448 ! A weird this is some are actually moving forward like I figured they should to 1.453 but their random. No really ryme or reason. 2 in this group,one in this group....weird.
confused [Linked Image]

Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Wolfdog91] #7486543
02/06/22 02:44 AM
02/06/22 02:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 61
Alabama
W
WSD Trapper Offline
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Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 61
Alabama
Resize and load 5 of those that you have already shot a time or two. After reloading them mark all of them with a sharpie at these 4 places. Just above the case web at the bottom, center of the case body, just below the shoulder, and center of the case neck. Be careful to not rub off the markings. Now go shoot them. After firing carefully measure again where you marked the cases. If the chamber is cut to the high end of the spec or is oversized then you should see excessive case expansion in the fired cases. If the case body is blowing out to fill an ovdrsized chamber the cases will shorten. You will also have short case life if this is happening. Cases may try to seperate from the excessive expansion.

Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Wolfdog91] #7486651
02/06/22 08:39 AM
02/06/22 08:39 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,689
pa
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hippie Offline
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Joined: Feb 2010
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pa
I have the same gun Wolfy, 223 bull barrel. The neck in mine is way oversized, fired cases (neck) measure .010 over a loaded case from mine.
Most factory guns it will be half that or less.

I don't get fancy with that gun, just neck size and shoot.

Re: Gunsmiths: short fire forming [Re: Wolfdog91] #7486855
02/06/22 12:22 PM
02/06/22 12:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,770
N.W. Iowa
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Tactical.20 Offline
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N.W. Iowa
I trim the Total length every time I reload a casing

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