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Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: K9Wolfer] #7498793
02/16/22 08:49 PM
02/16/22 08:49 PM
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michigan,USA
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seniortrap Offline
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When using alcohol in racing, it takes twice as much to equal gasoline. But it runs cooler and its less wear and tear on the motor.


Vietnam--1967 46th. Const./Combat Engineers

"Chaotic action is preferable to orderly inaction."
"After the first shot, all plans go out the window!"
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: waggler] #7498886
02/16/22 09:51 PM
02/16/22 09:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
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Kansas
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Originally Posted by waggler
Nuclear


Like button


Everything the left touches it destroys
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: 3togo] #7498987
02/16/22 10:42 PM
02/16/22 10:42 PM
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Wisconsin
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Average Joe Offline
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Originally Posted by 3togo
AKAjust,
Flipper might know this, but I just read yesterday that Marathon Oil, oil shale business, can make money on $35 a barrel oil.

I'm not saying the oil companies didn't take a big hit the last few years, and I know they actually do pay more in taxes than other large companies, no matter how the left vilifies them.

And it is a free market. But if you can do oil shale at $35/barrel, make money, and supply gas at a reasonable cost to the consumer, there is no need for the US to suffer climate control when the major polluters are in Asia.

Cooking corn to make ethanol was not a good idea.



Don’t underestimate how much the oil companies receive in government subsidies which helps to make $35 oil profitable. Also how much money they spend slandering ethanol since it takes away their market share.
A big reason for using ethanol is as an oxygenate/octane booster, replacing MTBEs which were found to be horribly carcinogenic. The octane boost from ethanol allows the gasoline producers (blenders) to use much lower octane (lower quality) base products while maintaining the target octane levels of the blend, which helps their cost too. Without this octane boost the prices at the pump would be even higher.
Others things not often considered when comparing ethanol - 1/3 of the weight of corn processed ends up being a high protein animal feed product (DDGS), crude corn oil is recovered and further processed to biodiesel, carbon dioxide produced during fermentation is captured and used for industrial and food processing purposes. Corn grown for ethanol takes carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, negating some of the carbon dioxide released when ethanol is burned, no such offset exists for gasoline production and use.
Ethanol’s lower energy content per unit is often brought up, this is irrelevant though since there are many other substances - liquids, solids, gases; which have a greater energy content than gasoline. But they aren’t used for one reason or another - it’s the overall picture that matters.
Ethanol is far from perfect, but it’s also not the villain it is sometimes made out to be.


I’ve been sayin yes sir all day at work, I’ve been sayin yes ma’am at home…
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: K9Wolfer] #7499034
02/16/22 11:17 PM
02/16/22 11:17 PM
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I've often heard of oil companies getting subsidies, just never heard how ,A J perhaps you can tell me how.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: Rat Masterson] #7499056
02/16/22 11:28 PM
02/16/22 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
I've often heard of oil companies getting subsidies, just never heard how ,A J perhaps you can tell me how.


RM - I don’t have the source readily available, but I’ll gladly post more tomorrow.


I’ve been sayin yes sir all day at work, I’ve been sayin yes ma’am at home…
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: K9Wolfer] #7499126
02/17/22 12:35 AM
02/17/22 12:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,475
WI>>>MN >>>WI
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Climate change is real!!

It has more to do with solar cycles than carbon, though.


Man who mistake shillelagh for fairy wand; see pixie dust, also.
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: T-Rex] #7499146
02/17/22 01:00 AM
02/17/22 01:00 AM
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East-Central Wisconsin
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Below is a copied statement regarding fossil fuel subsidies for the USA and the EU Yes there are high levels of subsidy but all developed energy utilizing companies are subsidizing fossil fuel energy at significant levels.
Bryce
Conservative estimates put U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry at roughly $20 billion per year; with 20 percent currently allocated to coal and 80 percent to natural gas and crude oil. European Union subsidies are estimated to total 55 billion euros annually.
www.eesi.org

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: K9Wolfer] #7499168
02/17/22 01:50 AM
02/17/22 01:50 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
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I know the lead author of the study, sort of. He and I see things very differently. He started off as an engineer before he decided to become an environmental scientist. Either the corn ethanol industry treated him bad at one point or he decided this was the topic he was going to ride until it ran out of gas, pardon my bad pun. The got his PhD at U of Wisc-Madison with this topic and hasn't left. His first paper came out in 2015 and he's still on the horse. He and his colleagues at "Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies" at UW do what I call "advocacy science". They have a desired policy outcome- in this case to have the US EPA not renew the current Renewable Fuels Standard with 1st generation biofuels (aka current corn ethanol and biodiesel) and go directly to non annual tilled cellulosic (perennial grass) feed stocks for biofuels. These researchers then go gather the data and do the modeling to support their goals. And modern corn (mostly) and soybean (secondary) farming can be seen as a half full or half empty glass depending on what worldview you want to emphasize, the negative costs over the positive goods or vice versa. I don't know any of the economists that were involved with the paper, although they follow a school of "applied" economics called "econometrics". If you're not into boatloads of complex mathematical formulas (they put me to sleep), don't go there. The PNAS journal "shepherd" to this article was an "ag" economist out of U. of Minnesota.

My main problem with the lead author is that he only sees corn production in the U.S. through the lens of biofuels. No other "drivers" of why farmers raise corn is really considered. Corn as a grain has lots of properties and chemists since WWII have been figuring out how to take it apart and put it back together in all kinds of combinations for various uses. These people don't really view changes in global grain commodities except in terms of biofuels. I personally think the lead author's goal, besides sinking 1st generation biofuels, is to become a political appointee someday leading the EPA or as a under- or assistant secretary of Ag or some other fed department. He wants to make policy. And he'll ride this horse for all its worth with that goal in mind. Just my opinion. We'll see...


"And God said, Let us make man in our image �and let them have dominion �and all the creatures that move along the ground".
Genesis 1:26
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: Average Joe] #7499993
02/17/22 09:37 PM
02/17/22 09:37 PM
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Here’s an article regarding oil company subsidies:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02847-2


I’ve been sayin yes sir all day at work, I’ve been sayin yes ma’am at home…
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: K9Wolfer] #7500070
02/17/22 11:07 PM
02/17/22 11:07 PM
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That article isn't worth the bandwidth it takes up


"Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon". Milton Friedman.
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: Trapper7] #7500072
02/17/22 11:11 PM
02/17/22 11:11 PM
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Minnesota
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Originally Posted by Trapper7
Natural gas powered vehicles makes more sense than electric ones. It's all about money, not pollution or saving the planet.

I've seen Natural gas vehicle turn into bombs


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: K9Wolfer] #7500089
02/17/22 11:27 PM
02/17/22 11:27 PM
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Looks to me like they get tax breaks on equipment and drilling costs to be able to deduct expenses the year that they are incurred rather than pro rated. Is that a subsidy or a tax break, if that's the case every business and most people get subsidies. That being said the gov. should get out of all businesses and let the chips fall where they may. Supply and demand should be our mantra.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: Rat Masterson] #7500092
02/17/22 11:34 PM
02/17/22 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Rat Masterson
Looks to me like they get tax breaks on equipment and drilling costs to be able to deduct expenses the year that they are incurred rather than pro rated. Is that a subsidy or a tax break, if that's the case every business and most people get subsidies. That being said the gov. should get out of all businesses and let the chips fall where they may. Supply and demand should be our mantra.


That article doesn’t cover everything, it’s just one I pulled up quickly.
Gas company profits are in the billions. Probably shouldn’t be getting tax money, tax breaks, subsidies, etc...
I agree about government staying out of business.


I’ve been sayin yes sir all day at work, I’ve been sayin yes ma’am at home…
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: Steven 49er] #7500098
02/17/22 11:40 PM
02/17/22 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Steven 49er
That article isn't worth the bandwidth it takes up



I don’t agree with the climate change angle of it, but the point being discussed was oil companies and financial help from government. Which does occur and that is indisputable, whether you like it happening or not.


I’ve been sayin yes sir all day at work, I’ve been sayin yes ma’am at home…
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: K9Wolfer] #7500100
02/17/22 11:40 PM
02/17/22 11:40 PM
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Posts: 1,398
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The investment tax credit was repealed after 1985. That was a true subsidy, but it was available to any company that purchased capital equipment. Anyone who claims the oil and gas business in the United States is subsidized is misinformed. Please feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.

Last edited by Kansas Cat; 02/17/22 11:44 PM.
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: K9Wolfer] #7500105
02/17/22 11:47 PM
02/17/22 11:47 PM
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wyoming southeast
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The ONLY thing Ethanol in fuel was good for is getting votes from farmers. The only thing ethanol is good for is slowly melting the ice in your drink. As far as global warming a good volcano will put off more greenhouse gasses in a few weeks than mankind can do in a year.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: K9Wolfer] #7500110
02/17/22 11:54 PM
02/17/22 11:54 PM
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There is no political advantage to be gained from threatening to regulate volcanoes.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: Kansas Cat] #7500113
02/17/22 11:58 PM
02/17/22 11:58 PM
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https://www.brookings.edu/research/...s-can-restart-international-cooperation/

https://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/

Tax breaks are a subsidy.
Keeping things on topic of this thread - the ethanol industry was criticized for receiving government help. Relevant point is so does the oil industry. Whatever you want to call that help.

As I said in an earlier post, I don’t agree with the climate change angle and I don’t think government should be involved. But if we are going to make comparisons between industries, then we should be honest and it should be known about what is going on.


Last edited by Average Joe; 02/18/22 12:01 AM.

I’ve been sayin yes sir all day at work, I’ve been sayin yes ma’am at home…
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: K9Wolfer] #7500116
02/18/22 12:01 AM
02/18/22 12:01 AM
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Are you saying that being able to deduct business expenses is a subsidy? I am not sure what you mean by "tax breaks".

Last edited by Kansas Cat; 02/18/22 12:05 AM.
Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than [Re: Kansas Cat] #7500122
02/18/22 12:17 AM
02/18/22 12:17 AM
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By definition of subsidy - yes.
I don’t hate the player, I hate the game.


I’ve been sayin yes sir all day at work, I’ve been sayin yes ma’am at home…
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