Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas
[Re: K9Wolfer]
#7500952
02/18/22 07:49 PM
02/18/22 07:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 182 Georgia
Wiz
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 182
Georgia
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Here is a link to a study that sheds some additional light on the compensatory reproduction hypothesis. https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/am-pdf/10.1002/jwmg.21329In brief, compensatory reproduction was weakly supported for recovery of trapped coyotes populations whereas immigration was the factor found to primarily drive it. Seems I heard that from someone before!! Just so everyone is aware, the Michele Lute referenced in previous posts is also the only "expert" scientist that the New Mexico legislature allowed to address any concerns during all of the SB 32 hearings last year. I listened in on many of those hearings and was less than impressed with her wildlife biology expertise and ability to present unbiased science. Most of her research for her PhD and before focused on human-dimensions and carnivore management but I doubt she ever really did much in the lines of biological research. Control the narrative and you control the people.
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Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas
[Re: walleye101]
#7500954
02/18/22 07:51 PM
02/18/22 07:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 745 South Central Kansas
KsTrapper88
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 745
South Central Kansas
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“You’ll often hear the phrase ‘kill one coyote and two show up to her burial,'” Project Coyote’s Michelle Lute explains.
Lute, a carnivore conservation manager, explains that with less competition for food, female coyotes will have larger litters and can reach sexual maturity sooner — compensating for the loss from such hunts with higher reproduction rates.
This is mal-information, which means it contains some truth, but is used out of context to steer a certain narrative. It's true that litter size can be effected by adult densities. The exact mechanisim is not known, with food competition one possible theory, but likely more complex than that. The "researchers", that Mark speaks so highly of ;), often use this to proclaim that predator management does not work. What they fail to report is the lag time between population reduction, reproduction and recruitment of new young into the adult population. Intensive predator control is effective by reduceing predator abundance to it's lowest point during the most critical time, spring calving and nesting seasons. If you understand that seasonal cycle in population abundance you also understand the effective predator management is not a one shot deal but a continuous process. I agree, coyotes aren’t going to be extirpated like wolves, they simply are survivors but for calf, lamb, fawn survival timely management works. And since we don’t have to worry about them disappearing what a great reason to keep harvesting their fur, a very renewable resource. beats death by mange anyway
Derek
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Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas
[Re: K9Wolfer]
#7500979
02/18/22 08:02 PM
02/18/22 08:02 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,390 SD
Boone Liane
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,390
SD
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Kill more coyotes and end up with more coyotes. What a load of save the predator excrement.
Seasonal selection pressure largely reduces the younger age group end of the population. Younger animals have fewer, and less successful offspring.
Older animals are more likely to survive seasonal selection pressure, and more likely to have larger more successful litters.
What’s worse? Ten “younger” females with an average litter size of four? Or two older females with an average litter size of eight?
This stupid myth has been perpetuated far to long and is a favorite of the fern fondling save the predator anti.
The study link the wiz posted, by their own admission they only removed 1/6th to 1/10th of the estimated coyote population annually.
Can one even call that “control”?
Last edited by Boone Liane; 02/18/22 08:36 PM.
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Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas
[Re: K9Wolfer]
#7501013
02/18/22 08:31 PM
02/18/22 08:31 PM
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,492 james bay frontierOnt.
Boco
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,492
james bay frontierOnt.
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You just need some more wolves out that way to thin out the coyotes.
Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
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Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas
[Re: Boone Liane]
#7501054
02/18/22 09:07 PM
02/18/22 09:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,104 Ks
Flint Hill fur
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,104
Ks
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Kill more coyotes and end up with more coyotes. What a load of save the predator excrement.
Seasonal selection pressure largely reduces the younger age group end of the population. Younger animals have fewer, and less successful offspring.
Older animals are more likely to survive seasonal selection pressure, and more likely to have larger more successful litters.
What’s worse? Ten “younger” females with an average litter size of four? Or two older females with an average litter size of eight?
This stupid myth has been perpetuated far to long and is a favorite of the fern fondling save the predator anti.
The study link the wiz posted, by their own admission they only removed 1/6th to 1/10th of the estimated coyote population annually.
Can one even call that “control”?
Completely agree.
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Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas
[Re: K9Wolfer]
#7501061
02/18/22 09:16 PM
02/18/22 09:16 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,171 chelsea,wi
keets
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,171
chelsea,wi
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didn't Mark June write about taking out 70%...just to stay even?
2021 goals....make time to trap PROUD MEMBER WTA NTA FTA GOA SPORTSMANS ALLIANCE
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Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas
[Re: K9Wolfer]
#7501155
02/18/22 10:31 PM
02/18/22 10:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,012 USA MN
Snowpa
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,012
USA MN
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Coyotes can be eliminated ,But If your not allowed to Trap and Hunt them they will always be there .Ranchers Turn down a lot of hunters and trappers some even try to remove you from BLM land . No sympathy
Never Confuse Stupid With Crazy
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Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas
[Re: K9Wolfer]
#7501218
02/18/22 11:32 PM
02/18/22 11:32 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,510 South Dakota
TravC
"MCnasty"
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"MCnasty"
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,510
South Dakota
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Very familiar with michelle lute She is basicaly a paid advocate of project coyote and The wildearth guardians
Part of the same bunch of idiots like david parsons And that wanna be coyote expert dan florez
Its funny she doesnt mention that the trend in those studies points to food availability as a huge factor into pup recruitment and survivability predator control needs to be done on a annual basis. Coyote numbers go down ungulates are able to go up therefore more food can lead to more coyotes well duhhhh The issue also has many other factors The idea she is presenting is way to oversimplified. Especialy considering other factors in a dynamic ecosystem Draught flood etc for example some years in my country draught kicks the antelope fawn recruitment and survivability way down. Just about each year predation is heavy on antelope kids. Also the disease that has hit our rabbits hard here has had a effect the impacted alot more than coyotes
Nor does she mention things about coyotes heading to better food sources etc
Her big premise is on co existance
Want to really see her in action? Note her responce when you
Ask her about the marin county california non lethal predator program
Project coyote doesnt like it when you point out it was a huuuge failure
They have never cared about coyotes
They live those donatiins
Last edited by TravC; 02/18/22 11:42 PM.
There i said it....
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Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas
[Re: Boone Liane]
#7501226
02/18/22 11:40 PM
02/18/22 11:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,510 South Dakota
TravC
"MCnasty"
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"MCnasty"
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,510
South Dakota
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Kill more coyotes and end up with more coyotes. What a load of save the predator excrement.
Seasonal selection pressure largely reduces the younger age group end of the population. Younger animals have fewer, and less successful offspring.
Older animals are more likely to survive seasonal selection pressure, and more likely to have larger more successful litters.
What’s worse? Ten “younger” females with an average litter size of four? Or two older females with an average litter size of eight?
This stupid myth has been perpetuated far to long and is a favorite of the fern fondling save the predator anti.
The study link the wiz posted, by their own admission they only removed 1/6th to 1/10th of the estimated coyote population annually.
Can one even call that “control”?
Kill more coyotes and end up with more coyotes. What a load of save the predator excrement.
Seasonal selection pressure largely reduces the younger age group end of the population. Younger animals have fewer, and less successful offspring.
Older animals are more likely to survive seasonal selection pressure, and more likely to have larger more successful litters.
What’s worse? Ten “younger” females with an average litter size of four? Or two older females with an average litter size of eight?
This stupid myth has been perpetuated far to long and is a favorite of the fern fondling save the predator anti.
The study link the wiz posted, by their own admission they only removed 1/6th to 1/10th of the estimated coyote population annually.
Can one even call that “control”?
Kill more coyotes and end up with more coyotes. What a load of save the predator excrement.
Seasonal selection pressure largely reduces the younger age group end of the population. Younger animals have fewer, and less successful offspring.
Older animals are more likely to survive seasonal selection pressure, and more likely to have larger more successful litters.
What’s worse? Ten “younger” females with an average litter size of four? Or two older females with an average litter size of eight?
This stupid myth has been perpetuated far to long and is a favorite of the fern fondling save the predator anti.
The study link the wiz posted, by their own admission they only removed 1/6th to 1/10th of the estimated coyote population annually.
Can one even call that “control”?
Bingo boonie
There i said it....
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Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas
[Re: MattLA]
#7501255
02/19/22 12:16 AM
02/19/22 12:16 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,054 SE Kansas
K52
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,054
SE Kansas
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5% is not a big percentage especially when it's not clear of what is causing the other 95% and how that is being dealt with. No matter what you do there are going to be losses, but when there is a huge discrepancy of what the main cause of calve mortality, it just seems silly to focus on the thing that is causing the least amount of damage. Maybe we should send some of those ventilators to the farms and outfit them so they can put their calves on it such respiratory issues seem to be the leading cause of death.
The other thing is that this is the same dance and pony show used to eliminate wolves from the lower 48, and yet again here we are how many years later, how much money, how much time and effort are we going to waste on an issue that is solved more effectively by other means? Just ask yourself if how much time, effort and money is being spent to kill coyotes and the percentage of calves getting got GOES UP, are we really doing things the right way, or at a mere 5% of the total death rate, is it even really a problem? If it was your calf crop that was losing 5% I bet you would have a different outlook, especially if you could eliminate the problem. Don't buy into the antis bs.
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Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas
[Re: MattLA]
#7501272
02/19/22 12:31 AM
02/19/22 12:31 AM
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 8,947 Indiana
Providence Farm
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 8,947
Indiana
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I'm not, I just have to be honest in that I would worry about the 95% of the problem first. Maybe that already happens, just seems like the respitory issue is unavoidable or something else to focus on the bottom 5%. That's how I look at it anyways. What gives you the idea they are not working on the other problems along with this? 5% can mean the difference between staying in business or not in a bad year or two.
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Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas
[Re: K9Wolfer]
#7501365
02/19/22 05:36 AM
02/19/22 05:36 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,868 williamsburg ks
danny clifton
"Grumpy Old Man"
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"Grumpy Old Man"
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,868
williamsburg ks
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They are good breeders. Even 1080 didn't exterminate them though that stuff definitely put the hurt on them. The rise in coyote numbers and the subsequent drop in fox numbers can be put squarely on the shoulders of the 1080 ban. Coyotes are travelers and fox are not. Coyote will go 10 miles to a 1080 bait and fox do not. So there were pockets with little fox or coyotes but a mile or two away fox numbers were high.
If I hammer coyotes in a spot where they haven't been controlled in a while then go back a year later my catch is about 25% of the first year. If I am just trapping for fur and pull everything after about 10 days, (that first ten days is when traps are really hitting) catch is about the same every year.
A dead cow or two the coyotes are actively feeding on, (some cattle are completely ignored) and you can look like your a fur god.
Here in KS there will always be pockets where landowners don't allow coyote killing. So even a good denner isnt going to extirpate them from an area.
Those coyote experts need to leave cattle producing to cowboys and coyote control to coyote killers.
Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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