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Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7500952
02/18/22 07:49 PM
02/18/22 07:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 182
Georgia
W
Wiz Offline
trapper
Wiz  Offline
trapper
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Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 182
Georgia
Here is a link to a study that sheds some additional light on the compensatory reproduction hypothesis.

https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/am-pdf/10.1002/jwmg.21329

In brief, compensatory reproduction was weakly supported for recovery of trapped coyotes populations whereas immigration was the factor found to primarily drive it. Seems I heard that from someone before!!


Just so everyone is aware, the Michele Lute referenced in previous posts is also the only "expert" scientist that the New Mexico legislature allowed to address any concerns during all of the SB 32 hearings last year. I listened in on many of those hearings and was less than impressed with her wildlife biology expertise and ability to present unbiased science. Most of her research for her PhD and before focused on human-dimensions and carnivore management but I doubt she ever really did much in the lines of biological research. Control the narrative and you control the people.

Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: walleye101] #7500954
02/18/22 07:51 PM
02/18/22 07:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 745
South Central Kansas
KsTrapper88 Offline
trapper
KsTrapper88  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 745
South Central Kansas
Originally Posted by walleye101
Originally Posted by K9Wolfer


“You’ll often hear the phrase ‘kill one coyote and two show up to her burial,'” Project Coyote’s Michelle Lute explains.

Lute, a carnivore conservation manager, explains that with less competition for food, female coyotes will have larger litters and can reach sexual maturity sooner — compensating for the loss from such hunts with higher reproduction rates.



This is mal-information, which means it contains some truth, but is used out of context to steer a certain narrative. It's true that litter size can be effected by adult densities. The exact mechanisim is not known, with food competition one possible theory, but likely more complex than that. The "researchers", that Mark speaks so highly of ;), often use this to proclaim that predator management does not work. What they fail to report is the lag time between population reduction, reproduction and recruitment of new young into the adult population. Intensive predator control is effective by reduceing predator abundance to it's lowest point during the most critical time, spring calving and nesting seasons. If you understand that seasonal cycle in population abundance you also understand the effective predator management is not a one shot deal but a continuous process.



I agree, coyotes aren’t going to be extirpated like wolves, they simply are survivors but for calf, lamb, fawn survival timely management works. And since we don’t have to worry about them disappearing what a great reason to keep harvesting their fur, a very renewable resource. beats death by mange anyway


Derek
Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7500979
02/18/22 08:02 PM
02/18/22 08:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,390
SD
Boone Liane Offline
trapper
Boone Liane  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,390
SD
Kill more coyotes and end up with more coyotes. What a load of save the predator excrement.

Seasonal selection pressure largely reduces the younger age group end of the population. Younger animals have fewer, and less successful offspring.

Older animals are more likely to survive seasonal selection pressure, and more likely to have larger more successful litters.

What’s worse? Ten “younger” females with an average litter size of four? Or two older females with an average litter size of eight?

This stupid myth has been perpetuated far to long and is a favorite of the fern fondling save the predator anti.


The study link the wiz posted, by their own admission they only removed 1/6th to 1/10th of the estimated coyote population annually.

Can one even call that “control”?


Last edited by Boone Liane; 02/18/22 08:36 PM.
Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7501008
02/18/22 08:28 PM
02/18/22 08:28 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,390
SD
Boone Liane Offline
trapper
Boone Liane  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 3,390
SD
And nobody ever talks about forage base and critical body mass index.

May not be a factor in the south but definitely a factor in colder climates.

Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7501013
02/18/22 08:31 PM
02/18/22 08:31 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,492
james bay frontierOnt.
B
Boco Offline
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Boco  Offline
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james bay frontierOnt.
You just need some more wolves out that way to thin out the coyotes.


Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7501033
02/18/22 08:51 PM
02/18/22 08:51 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10,865
SW Georgia
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Wanna Be Offline
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Wanna Be  Offline
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Joined: May 2018
Posts: 10,865
SW Georgia
I don’t know about more or less, but the landowners and managers seem to see a difference. All about timing I guess.

Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7501053
02/18/22 09:06 PM
02/18/22 09:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 8,947
Indiana
P
Providence Farm Offline
trapper
Providence Farm  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 8,947
Indiana
Farmers/ranchers would not pay Mark to trap if were not saving b them money. So it must work.

Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: Boone Liane] #7501054
02/18/22 09:07 PM
02/18/22 09:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,104
Ks
Flint Hill fur Offline
trapper
Flint Hill fur  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,104
Ks
Originally Posted by Boone Liane
Kill more coyotes and end up with more coyotes. What a load of save the predator excrement.

Seasonal selection pressure largely reduces the younger age group end of the population. Younger animals have fewer, and less successful offspring.

Older animals are more likely to survive seasonal selection pressure, and more likely to have larger more successful litters.

What’s worse? Ten “younger” females with an average litter size of four? Or two older females with an average litter size of eight?

This stupid myth has been perpetuated far to long and is a favorite of the fern fondling save the predator anti.


The study link the wiz posted, by their own admission they only removed 1/6th to 1/10th of the estimated coyote population annually.

Can one even call that “control”?


Completely agree.

Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7501061
02/18/22 09:16 PM
02/18/22 09:16 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,171
chelsea,wi
keets Offline
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keets  Offline
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Posts: 2,171
chelsea,wi
didn't Mark June write about taking out 70%...just to stay even?


2021 goals....make time to trap
PROUD MEMBER WTA NTA FTA GOA SPORTSMANS ALLIANCE
Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7501155
02/18/22 10:31 PM
02/18/22 10:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,012
USA MN
Snowpa Offline
trapper
Snowpa  Offline
trapper

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,012
USA MN
Coyotes can be eliminated ,But If your not allowed to Trap and Hunt them they will always be there .Ranchers Turn down a lot of hunters and trappers some even try to remove you from BLM land . No sympathy


Never Confuse Stupid With Crazy
Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7501218
02/18/22 11:32 PM
02/18/22 11:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,510
South Dakota
T
TravC Offline
"MCnasty"
TravC  Offline
"MCnasty"
T

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,510
South Dakota
Very familiar with michelle lute
She is basicaly a paid advocate of project coyote and
The wildearth guardians


Part of the same bunch of idiots like david parsons
And that wanna be coyote expert dan florez

Its funny she doesnt mention that the trend in those studies points to food availability as a huge factor into pup recruitment and survivability predator control needs to be done on a annual basis. Coyote numbers go down ungulates are able to go up therefore more food can lead to more coyotes well duhhhh
The issue also has many other factors
The idea she is presenting is way to oversimplified. Especialy considering other factors in a dynamic ecosystem
Draught flood etc for example some years in my country draught kicks the antelope fawn recruitment and survivability way down. Just about each year predation is heavy on antelope kids.
Also the disease that has hit our rabbits hard here has had a effect the impacted alot more than coyotes


Nor does she mention things about coyotes heading to better food sources etc

Her big premise is on co existance

Want to really see her in action? Note her responce when you

Ask her about the marin county california non lethal predator program

Project coyote doesnt like it when you point out it was a huuuge failure

They have never cared about coyotes

They live those donatiins

Last edited by TravC; 02/18/22 11:42 PM.

There i said it....
Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: Boone Liane] #7501226
02/18/22 11:40 PM
02/18/22 11:40 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,510
South Dakota
T
TravC Offline
"MCnasty"
TravC  Offline
"MCnasty"
T

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,510
South Dakota
Originally Posted by Boone Liane
Kill more coyotes and end up with more coyotes. What a load of save the predator excrement.

Seasonal selection pressure largely reduces the younger age group end of the population. Younger animals have fewer, and less successful offspring.

Older animals are more likely to survive seasonal selection pressure, and more likely to have larger more successful litters.

What’s worse? Ten “younger” females with an average litter size of four? Or two older females with an average litter size of eight?

This stupid myth has been perpetuated far to long and is a favorite of the fern fondling save the predator anti.


The study link the wiz posted, by their own admission they only removed 1/6th to 1/10th of the estimated coyote population annually.

Can one even call that “control”?


Originally Posted by Boone Liane
Kill more coyotes and end up with more coyotes. What a load of save the predator excrement.

Seasonal selection pressure largely reduces the younger age group end of the population. Younger animals have fewer, and less successful offspring.

Older animals are more likely to survive seasonal selection pressure, and more likely to have larger more successful litters.

What’s worse? Ten “younger” females with an average litter size of four? Or two older females with an average litter size of eight?

This stupid myth has been perpetuated far to long and is a favorite of the fern fondling save the predator anti.


The study link the wiz posted, by their own admission they only removed 1/6th to 1/10th of the estimated coyote population annually.

Can one even call that “control”?


Originally Posted by Boone Liane
Kill more coyotes and end up with more coyotes. What a load of save the predator excrement.

Seasonal selection pressure largely reduces the younger age group end of the population. Younger animals have fewer, and less successful offspring.

Older animals are more likely to survive seasonal selection pressure, and more likely to have larger more successful litters.

What’s worse? Ten “younger” females with an average litter size of four? Or two older females with an average litter size of eight?

This stupid myth has been perpetuated far to long and is a favorite of the fern fondling save the predator anti.


The study link the wiz posted, by their own admission they only removed 1/6th to 1/10th of the estimated coyote population annually.

Can one even call that “control”?







Bingo boonie


There i said it....
Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7501233
02/18/22 11:46 PM
02/18/22 11:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,127
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Yes sir  Offline
"Callie's little brother"
Y

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,127
Marion Kansas
No need for any of you boys to worry about our KS coyotes...
We got them right about where we want them. Lol

Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: MattLA] #7501255
02/19/22 12:16 AM
02/19/22 12:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,054
SE Kansas
K
K52 Offline
trapper
K52  Offline
trapper
K

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,054
SE Kansas
Originally Posted by Tofan
5% is not a big percentage especially when it's not clear of what is causing the other 95% and how that is being dealt with. No matter what you do there are going to be losses, but when there is a huge discrepancy of what the main cause of calve mortality, it just seems silly to focus on the thing that is causing the least amount of damage. Maybe we should send some of those ventilators to the farms and outfit them so they can put their calves on it such respiratory issues seem to be the leading cause of death.

The other thing is that this is the same dance and pony show used to eliminate wolves from the lower 48, and yet again here we are how many years later, how much money, how much time and effort are we going to waste on an issue that is solved more effectively by other means? Just ask yourself if how much time, effort and money is being spent to kill coyotes and the percentage of calves getting got GOES UP, are we really doing things the right way, or at a mere 5% of the total death rate, is it even really a problem?


If it was your calf crop that was losing 5% I bet you would have a different outlook, especially if you could eliminate the problem. Don't buy into the antis bs.

Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7501268
02/19/22 12:28 AM
02/19/22 12:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2021
Posts: 986
Louisiana
M
MattLA Offline
trapper
MattLA  Offline
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M

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Posts: 986
Louisiana
I'm not, I just have to be honest in that I would worry about the 95% of the problem first. Maybe that already happens, just seems like the respitory issue is unavoidable or something else to focus on the bottom 5%. That's how I look at it anyways.

Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: MattLA] #7501272
02/19/22 12:31 AM
02/19/22 12:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 8,947
Indiana
P
Providence Farm Offline
trapper
Providence Farm  Offline
trapper
P

Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 8,947
Indiana
Originally Posted by Tofan
I'm not, I just have to be honest in that I would worry about the 95% of the problem first. Maybe that already happens, just seems like the respitory issue is unavoidable or something else to focus on the bottom 5%. That's how I look at it anyways.



What gives you the idea they are not working on the other problems along with this? 5% can mean the difference between staying in business or not in a bad year or two.

Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7501292
02/19/22 12:41 AM
02/19/22 12:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 41
SC
H
Highoctane Offline
trapper
Highoctane  Offline
trapper
H

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Posts: 41
SC
I started trapping my land several years back due to trail cam pics of coyotes killing fawns. I start after deer season ends, jan 1 and continue until mid july. My goal is to remove as many as possible during the turkey nesting and fawning times. All Im trying to do is buy a little time for the fawns to get a little age on them without a yote breathing down their necks. Ive had people to tell me Im wasting my time. I say, hogwash and pickle juice.

Over the past 5-6 years I have seen a exponential increase in fawn recruitment, not to mention the survival rate of turkeys. I will continue to trap as Ive been doing until Im too old to do so. There's one thing for sure, if you've got a coyote issue and do nothing, the issue will get worse!

Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: TC1] #7501303
02/19/22 12:54 AM
02/19/22 12:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 63,035
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline

trapper
330-Trapper  Offline

trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 63,035
Minnesota
Originally Posted by TC1
Not just moving, k9 is correct. Part of my studies @ SDSU was researching coyotes abilities to control their own populations by increasing or decreasing litter size to suit their needs. Truly an amazing and adaptable creature that consumes my thoughts most of the year.

Wow


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7501365
02/19/22 05:36 AM
02/19/22 05:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,868
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Offline
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Posts: 29,868
williamsburg ks
They are good breeders. Even 1080 didn't exterminate them though that stuff definitely put the hurt on them. The rise in coyote numbers and the subsequent drop in fox numbers can be put squarely on the shoulders of the 1080 ban. Coyotes are travelers and fox are not. Coyote will go 10 miles to a 1080 bait and fox do not. So there were pockets with little fox or coyotes but a mile or two away fox numbers were high.

If I hammer coyotes in a spot where they haven't been controlled in a while then go back a year later my catch is about 25% of the first year. If I am just trapping for fur and pull everything after about 10 days, (that first ten days is when traps are really hitting) catch is about the same every year.

A dead cow or two the coyotes are actively feeding on, (some cattle are completely ignored) and you can look like your a fur god.

Here in KS there will always be pockets where landowners don't allow coyote killing. So even a good denner isnt going to extirpate them from an area.

Those coyote experts need to leave cattle producing to cowboys and coyote control to coyote killers.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: In attempting to reduce coyote populations, Kansas [Re: K9Wolfer] #7502294
02/20/22 12:33 AM
02/20/22 12:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 10,074
WI - Wisconsin
A
AJE Offline
trapper
AJE  Offline
trapper
A

Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 10,074
WI - Wisconsin
This article tells about coyote populations, the ability for their populations to be resilient, and the ability (or inability) to control them with sustainable/impactful results

https://www.themeateater.com/conservation/wildlife-management/coyotes-kill-deer-not-deer-herds

At 1st it seems like a deer article, but it tells a lot of interesting info on coyote population perseverence.

Last edited by AJE; 02/20/22 12:35 AM.
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