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Re: Snow and salt in the Midwest??? [Re: 2zwudz] #7501718
02/19/22 12:58 PM
02/19/22 12:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 98
Metro Minnesota
M
MNSouthPaw Offline
trapper
MNSouthPaw  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 98
Metro Minnesota
I plow for MNDot. Salt is not always the answer. More salt does not fix road issues faster. Temp is crucial for salt to work, too cold less effective. We are going to more and more liquid to lower the effective temperatures salt works at and to prewet/activate the salt. Salt does not melt on contact. It needs to form a brine to lower the freezing point of water. It does this by friction as it is driven on, mixing the salt with a brine mixture as its applied, or being warmer than freezing when it's applied (no we don't have heated boxes). Out state uses less salt because they have less traffic, more prone to drifting and blowing. Making a wet spot for snow to stick to can be bad. Sand salt has enough salt in it to keep the pile from freezing solid and provides some traction and color that may aid in sun melting compaction and ice, very little melting from the salt. Pre-salting is not a thing, traffic throws it off the road very quickly, anti-icing with a liquid can be effective if timed right.

Re: Snow and salt in the Midwest??? [Re: MNSouthPaw] #7501738
02/19/22 01:31 PM
02/19/22 01:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 10,596
Iowa
T
trapdog1 Offline
trapper
trapdog1  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 10,596
Iowa
Originally Posted by MNSouthPaw
I plow for MNDot. Salt is not always the answer. More salt does not fix road issues faster. Temp is crucial for salt to work, too cold less effective. We are going to more and more liquid to lower the effective temperatures salt works at and to prewet/activate the salt. Salt does not melt on contact. It needs to form a brine to lower the freezing point of water. It does this by friction as it is driven on, mixing the salt with a brine mixture as its applied, or being warmer than freezing when it's applied (no we don't have heated boxes). Out state uses less salt because they have less traffic, more prone to drifting and blowing. Making a wet spot for snow to stick to can be bad. Sand salt has enough salt in it to keep the pile from freezing solid and provides some traction and color that may aid in sun melting compaction and ice, very little melting from the salt. Pre-salting is not a thing, traffic throws it off the road very quickly, anti-icing with a liquid can be effective if timed right.

Good info here from a guy that knows from practical experience what he is talking about. Thanks!

Re: Snow and salt in the Midwest??? [Re: trapdog1] #7501741
02/19/22 01:35 PM
02/19/22 01:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62,969
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline

trapper
330-Trapper  Offline

trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62,969
Minnesota
Originally Posted by trapdog1
Originally Posted by MNSouthPaw
I plow for MNDot. Salt is not always the answer. More salt does not fix road issues faster. Temp is crucial for salt to work, too cold less effective. We are going to more and more liquid to lower the effective temperatures salt works at and to prewet/activate the salt. Salt does not melt on contact. It needs to form a brine to lower the freezing point of water. It does this by friction as it is driven on, mixing the salt with a brine mixture as its applied, or being warmer than freezing when it's applied (no we don't have heated boxes). Out state uses less salt because they have less traffic, more prone to drifting and blowing. Making a wet spot for snow to stick to can be bad. Sand salt has enough salt in it to keep the pile from freezing solid and provides some traction and color that may aid in sun melting compaction and ice, very little melting from the salt. Pre-salting is not a thing, traffic throws it off the road very quickly, anti-icing with a liquid can be effective if timed right.

Good info here from a guy that knows from practical experience what he is talking about. Thanks!

Absolutely


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Snow and salt in the Midwest??? [Re: 2zwudz] #7501933
02/19/22 05:40 PM
02/19/22 05:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,145
Minnesota
Born Offline
trapper
Born  Offline
trapper

Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,145
Minnesota
If a private company dumped as much salt into the environment as MN/DOT does during the winter, the EPA would be shutting them down post haste. Salinity levels are rising in MN lakes. Just pointing out the double standards.


Help yourself.



Re: Snow and salt in the Midwest??? [Re: 2zwudz] #7502013
02/19/22 07:37 PM
02/19/22 07:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62,969
Minnesota
330-Trapper Offline

trapper
330-Trapper  Offline

trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 62,969
Minnesota
Lots of chemicals Are


NRA and NTA Life Member
www.BackroadsRevised@etsy.com




Re: Snow and salt in the Midwest??? [Re: 2zwudz] #7502053
02/19/22 08:21 PM
02/19/22 08:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,507
WI>>>MN >>>WI
T-Rex Offline
trapper
T-Rex  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,507
WI>>>MN >>>WI
Not a matter of public policy; but, my own private road inclines about 30ft in ~300ft.

I used to plow and add salted sand. Now I just sprinkle a bit of wood ash after plowing, and find it works just fine.


Man who mistake shillelagh for fairy wand; see pixie dust, also.
Re: Snow and salt in the Midwest??? [Re: Born] #7504267
02/21/22 07:56 PM
02/21/22 07:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 98
Metro Minnesota
M
MNSouthPaw Offline
trapper
MNSouthPaw  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 98
Metro Minnesota
Originally Posted by Born
If a private company dumped as much salt into the environment as MN/DOT does during the winter, the EPA would be shutting them down post haste. Salinity levels are rising in MN lakes. Just pointing out the double standards.


MNDot is working to reduce salt usage. All salt usage is being closely monitored by the higher ups. Some stations have scales to accurately measure salt usage, sanders are calibrated and computer monitored. The use of newer slurry trucks has been show to reduce salt use by approx 30%. I have family and friends that plow privately and I can assure you they use more salt and chemicals by area than MNDot does, we discuss it around holidays. They want to know more about liquids to reduce their cost.
I agree salinity in our soils and waters are a concern to me as an individual and also to MNDot as they continue to try and find ways to reduce the amount of salt we use and find alternative methods to melt snow and ice. If we lose the ability to use salt because we were careless with it, the public and the economy will suffer greatly. I hope that day never comes.

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