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Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7520642
03/07/22 03:50 PM
03/07/22 03:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 16,639
North East Kansas
Marty Offline
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Marty  Offline
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North East Kansas
If the russians do not have air superiority why is ukraine calling for a no fly zone?



E
Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7520643
03/07/22 03:52 PM
03/07/22 03:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 33,529
McGrath, AK
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white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"
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Posts: 33,529
McGrath, AK
Originally Posted by 30/06
As a former military pilot with Combat missions over Iraq and Bosnia, I am dumbfounded at Russia's performance inUkraine. Make no mistake, I am squarely on the side of Ukraine here, and recently found out a former roommate has traveled there to offer his services ,(probably as a Forward Air Controller). I think we're at day 11, or thereabouts, and Russia doesn't have Air Superiority yet, recent post attack satellite photos show hangars burning but runways not cratered, both sides are freely using cell phones and unencrypted radios, Ukrainian leadership is relatively cornered in bunkers, yet haven't been dug out by bunker buster bombs, Russian aircraft are flying at relatively low altitude and getting picked off by man pads, (indicating they're still in danger of Ukrainian fighters and SAMs. The Russians have been described for many years as having a very robust jamming and mobile SAM capabilities. In fact, I would say those were the strongpoints in their AirPower portfolio. Do any of you with ground forces military experience (notice I didn't say Army out of genuine respect for USMC) see gross incompetence in the Russian ground game? The stalled convoy comes to mind here. I think Russia will eventually prevail, but boy, they look like amateurs so far.



https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/ukraine-conflict-is-the-vks-underperforming


Mean As Nails
Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7520644
03/07/22 03:54 PM
03/07/22 03:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 673
Interior Alaska
3
30/06 Offline OP
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Interior Alaska
Another observation: flat tires. Can you disable a wheeled fighting vehicle with small arms by puncturing enough tires? Please tell me my tax dollars bought run-flat tires for our Strykers. I've seen a lot of pictures of Russian-built, wheeled fighting vehicles abandoned with flat tires.

Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7520647
03/07/22 03:59 PM
03/07/22 03:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 16,639
North East Kansas
Marty Offline
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Marty  Offline
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I heard that when vehicles are stored for long periods and not rotated the uv deterioration can make tires weak.



E
Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7520649
03/07/22 04:00 PM
03/07/22 04:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 673
Interior Alaska
3
30/06 Offline OP
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30/06  Offline OP
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Interior Alaska
Thanks White17. Just read that article, and it all makes sense, reinforces my observations. Janes is a respected, Open Source Intelligence resource that is used throughout the world. I'm guessing Russian Intelligence agencies have deluxe subscriptions, I know American ones did.

Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7520673
03/07/22 04:27 PM
03/07/22 04:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,447
Georgia
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Georgia
Originally Posted by 30/06
Another observation: flat tires. Can you disable a wheeled fighting vehicle with small arms by puncturing enough tires? Please tell me my tax dollars bought run-flat tires for our Strykers. I've seen a lot of pictures of Russian-built, wheeled fighting vehicles abandoned with flat tires.


Can't speak to the Russian ones but American wheeled combat vehicles do have run flats and usually on board inflation systems. With our recent issues in the box many of the uparmored logistics vehicles do as well.

Another puzzling thing? If the tires were that rotten just how did they get them to the staging areas? Did they road them or drop ship them by rail?
I recall a few big moves both by road and rail and the weeks leading up to those exercises was mostly about putting on good rubber and making everything roadworthy.

Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7520690
03/07/22 04:50 PM
03/07/22 04:50 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 5,966
SW Georgia
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Wanna Be Offline
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SW Georgia
Itís definitely not the military might of the USSR for sure. Nor is it an invasion like I would have imagined or thought. I just donít understand if itís intentional or they are actually that inept.

Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7520691
03/07/22 04:50 PM
03/07/22 04:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 673
Interior Alaska
3
30/06 Offline OP
trapper
30/06  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Interior Alaska
Thank you for that that run-flat tire info, warrior. I'll sleep slightly better knowing that.

Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: Marty] #7520693
03/07/22 04:51 PM
03/07/22 04:51 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 5,966
SW Georgia
W
Wanna Be Offline
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SW Georgia
Originally Posted by Marty
I heard that when vehicles are stored for long periods and not rotated the uv deterioration can make tires weak.

Surely they train for battle readiness.

Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7520779
03/07/22 06:12 PM
03/07/22 06:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 558
Surry county, NC
G Hose Offline
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Surry county, NC
Russia could be holding back waiting on the US

Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7520802
03/07/22 06:40 PM
03/07/22 06:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 5,341
se South Dakota
NonPCfed Offline
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Quote
This question would largely depends on the purpose of the invasion. If you just wanted to wipe them off thr map, shouldn't take long. If you want to capture it with its industry and infrastructure more or less intact so you can use it with minimal rebuilding. Pacification could take years, regardless depending on the locals


I think Sniper is closer to reality here.

Quote
Textbook example of this was "highway of death " NW of Kuwait in 1991. Everything we had, to include F-16/15E/18/111s and A10s stayed well above 10,000' to avoid Iraqi Sa7/14s and plinked tanks/trucks/etc by the 100s.


And exactly why wasn't that miles long convoy been taken out, at least major sections of it if the Ukes still had viable attack aircraft?

As for all the pics of burned out, knocked out, disabled trucks, wheeled vehicles, or apcs, how do you know what side they belong to given that the Rus and the Ukes use much of the same equipment?

I haven't bombed anyone but I having been studying military history for 50 years. Anybody ever really read a lot about the Russian (Soviets-- a lot of boys in now independent countries fought with the Russians) war with the Germans during WWII--the most German casualties of that conflict was on the eastern front. Or even back to Napoleon's little foray into the Russian Empire in 1812. He sat in Moscow during part of fall and winter and wondered why the Russians weren't surrendering to him?? And by the European thaw in 1813, his 600,000 "Grand Armee" of 1812 basically ceased to exist. Almost all of the losses from logistics and climate-weather.

Yeah, maybe the modern Russian military is ***t or maybe it isn't. Just because it doesn't make sense to American war fighters doesn't it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to the Rus. Maybe the Ukes will kill all. I guess we're just have to see...


"And God said, Let us make man in our image Öand let them have dominion Öand all the creatures that move along the ground".
Genesis 1:26
Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: NonPCfed] #7520812
03/07/22 06:48 PM
03/07/22 06:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 17,447
Georgia
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Posts: 17,447
Georgia
Originally Posted by NonPCfed
Quote
This question would largely depends on the purpose of the invasion. If you just wanted to wipe them off thr map, shouldn't take long. If you want to capture it with its industry and infrastructure more or less intact so you can use it with minimal rebuilding. Pacification could take years, regardless depending on the locals


I think Sniper is closer to reality here.

Quote
Textbook example of this was "highway of death " NW of Kuwait in 1991. Everything we had, to include F-16/15E/18/111s and A10s stayed well above 10,000' to avoid Iraqi Sa7/14s and plinked tanks/trucks/etc by the 100s.


And exactly why wasn't that miles long convoy been taken out, at least major sections of it if the Ukes still had viable attack aircraft?

As for all the pics of burned out, knocked out, disabled trucks, wheeled vehicles, or apcs, how do you know what side they belong to given that the Rus and the Ukes use much of the same equipment?

I haven't bombed anyone but I having been studying military history for 50 years. Anybody ever really read a lot about the Russian (Soviets-- a lot of boys in now independent countries fought with the Russians) war with the Germans during WWII--the most German casualties of that conflict was on the eastern front. Or even back to Napoleon's little foray into the Russian Empire in 1812. He sat in Moscow during part of fall and winter and wondered why the Russians weren't surrendering to him?? And by the European thaw in 1813, his 600,000 "Grand Armee" of 1812 basically ceased to exist. Almost all of the losses from logistics and climate-weather.

Yeah, maybe the modern Russian military is ***t or maybe it isn't. Just because it doesn't make sense to American war fighters doesn't it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to the Rus. Maybe the Ukes will kill all. I guess we're just have to see...


True that. The Russian steppe, Russian weather and Slavic mind are all hard to fathom.

Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7520852
03/07/22 07:31 PM
03/07/22 07:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 10,098
Northeast Oklahoma
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Mike in A-town Offline
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Posts: 10,098
Northeast Oklahoma
"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near." Sun Tzu

Have you seen all the videos of "Russian POW's" claiming they were tricked into this fight... That they had no food, That they lacked fuel or ammo?

Might be true. Or it might be what they were briefed to say upon capture. Misinformation that convinces your enemy to believe that he has you on the ropes is right out of "The Art of War"

Send in the JV team first and have them fight just hard enough to keep the thing going... Goad the enemy into forming "lines"... then drop the hammer on them.

If I were the Ukrainians I would be very cautious about being emboldened by perceived success... The worst thing they could do would be to abandon their present tactics in favor of a face to face battle. They should adhere to stick-and-move and look at holding out long term.

The Russians may be genuinely doing poorly... Or they could be performing poorly to trick their enemy into being confident and drawing closer.

Mike


One man with a gun may control 100 others who have none.

Vladimir Lenin
Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: Marty] #7521118
03/07/22 11:18 PM
03/07/22 11:18 PM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 732
Washington
wildflights Offline
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Washington
Originally Posted by Marty
If the russians do not have air superiority why is ukraine calling for a no fly zone?


Because NATO jets would enforce a no fly zone. NATO involvement will pull us into World War 3.


Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. -Gustav Mahler
Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7521140
03/07/22 11:44 PM
03/07/22 11:44 PM
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 195
ontario
K
k9-hunter Offline
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ontario
the ukraine af was destroyed on the first day of the conflict

Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: k9-hunter] #7521153
03/08/22 12:24 AM
03/08/22 12:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,783
East-Central Wisconsin
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East-Central Wisconsin
The Soviet Union had 130 million more people, more assets and thus more money and revenues for the USSR to use for military etc. With the few very rich storing their assets in foreign countries and Russia just not a an economic engine there just is not the funds to build up and maintain a superior and ready military. This invasion is very telling regarding Russia's economic position in the world and I am sure it bothers them that the rest of the world is seeing that. The Ukrainians are holding out well but Russia just has the critical mass to take the major cities, infrastructure etc. Now do they have the military, funds and persistence to hold those? We don't know how committed they will be. Probably one of the reasons they were hoping to have the administration flee quickly so they could set up a pro Russian government and not have to engage for as long as they have. It is always different being the invader into a land where the people will fight you with stones and clubs if necessary. The Russians had a decade already and trying to hold a nation at bay internally will be very costly for both. For the Russians, economic and world station, for Ukraine many civilian lives, infrastructure and economy. I personally feel from talking with those that taught over there a couple decades ago that the Ukrainians can recover faster from being shelled, beaten and killed then the Russians will by whatever victory they would like to claim.

Bryce

Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7521155
03/08/22 12:26 AM
03/08/22 12:26 AM
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Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline
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Originally Posted by 30/06
As a former military pilot with Combat missions over Iraq and Bosnia, I am dumbfounded at Russia's performance inUkraine. Make no mistake, I am squarely on the side of Ukraine here, and recently found out a former roommate has traveled there to offer his services ,(probably as a Forward Air Controller). I think we're at day 11, or thereabouts, and Russia doesn't have Air Superiority yet, recent post attack satellite photos show hangars burning but runways not cratered, both sides are freely using cell phones and unencrypted radios, Ukrainian leadership is relatively cornered in bunkers, yet haven't been dug out by bunker buster bombs, Russian aircraft are flying at relatively low altitude and getting picked off by man pads, (indicating they're still in danger of Ukrainian fighters and SAMs. The Russians have been described for many years as having a very robust jamming and mobile SAM capabilities. In fact, I would say those were the strongpoints in their AirPower portfolio. Do any of you with ground forces military experience (notice I didn't say Army out of genuine respect for USMC) see gross incompetence in the Russian ground game? The stalled convoy comes to mind here. I think Russia will eventually prevail, but boy, they look like amateurs so far.

Iv been saying for a bit the Russians haven't seemed to learn many lessons from prior engagements. Isn't this the first time since WWII that they have actually had air on air battles ?


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Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7521164
03/08/22 12:45 AM
03/08/22 12:45 AM
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Posts: 673
Interior Alaska
3
30/06 Offline OP
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Interior Alaska
Soviet pilots flew extensively against Americans during the Korean War. Recently, they have some experience over Chechnya, Georgia, and Syria. In fact, a Russian Pilot, pictured with Putin and Assad in Syria, was recently shot down and captured in Ukraine. So their current generations of pilots have some combat experience, but little if any real air to air fighting in those conflicts. You could, however, say the same thing about Americans though. Not much hot air to air since 1st Gulf War.

Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7521169
03/08/22 12:58 AM
03/08/22 12:58 AM
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OK
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I'm baffled by the lack of use of IED's by the Ukrainians . They were expecting this , they had time to build plant them . And command detonated IED's wreck havoc. I'm surprised we haven't seen it.


Honor a Soldier. Be the kind of American worth fighting for.
Re: More Incompetant: Russian AF or Army? [Re: 30/06] #7521172
03/08/22 01:02 AM
03/08/22 01:02 AM
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wyoming southeast
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danvee Offline
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wyoming southeast
Russia has a has underestimated the will of people who have had a taste of freedom. Even if the Russians defeat the Ukrainian army they wont be able to defeat the will of the people. It will be a war of exhausting attrition for the dictators forces to keep it occupied. Look at past wars it does not work trying to win the hearts and minds when you have killed their families that kind of hate and revenge can go on forever.

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