Thoughts?

I know waggler didn't intend to stir things up. Just curious as to how this would be explained.

The Calvinist versus Arminianism debate is man’s attempt to try to fit God into a box. The fundamental attributes of God based on Calvinism is true, the fundamental attributes of God based on Arminianism is true. We have a hard time excepting that both can be true… But they both are true.

Evangelize like an Arminianism, sleep like a Calvinist.

2 Peter 3:1-9 – This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

1 Peter 1:1 – “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect”

I think that since Peter says this is the second letter i wrote to you beloved, and in the first letter he says it’s to the elect, then when he is saying “you, any, all” he is talking about the people he is writing to. He obviously says above it there will be scoffers and Peter refers to them as “they” so that would be my take.

To be clear I hold a reformed theology, but if you love Christ, and do all to the glory of God, then we are brothers...regardless of your take on this vs or Romans 9 or Ephesians 1: 5.

I'm an unapologetic Calvinist not because of Calvin, but because of what I read in the Bible and personal experience.

I'll be the first to admit that I can't wrap my mind around how anyone can believe in predestination. At least as far as it applies to there being a Chosen, or Elect. So much in the Bible seems to contradict that. Such as John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The words "world" and "whosoever" don't exactly conjure up the image of a chosen few.

Hebrews 11

2And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37They were stoned, they were sawn in two, [k]were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. 39And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Revelation 20
4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.…

So I wonder if Thomas Jefferson had a particular group in mind as in those predestined and those double predestined when he phrased “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

I mean how could anyone have the pursuit of happiness knowing or thinking they was born a loser and encouraged by others to believe so?

Chosen Before the "Foundation of the World" Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world...

Not a lot of ambiguity there.

I guess I do not look at it that way ,,,, GOD being GOD,,, I look at it in scripture as is ,,GOD knows who makes it and who does not. And knew it before you do.

Romana 7:8
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Ephesians 2:8-9
English Standard Version
8 For (A)by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Roman 3:10-18
10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is pan open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and tthe way of peace they have not known.”
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

God is sovereign and good, all deserve punishment and death for rebellion against our holy and righteous creator, but some are spared, not because they are better than the rest, or wiser in their ability to choose, or more righteous, or anything of themselves, that would lead to pride and arrogance,...but rather because God is gracious with His Spirit, renewing the hearts and minds of those who eventually follow him. This is a difficult discussion, especially for the non believers reading it, but God doesn’t withhold belief from anyone, that is our natural state, we dont need Him to keep us from believing, and God would be just to finish us all for unbelief, but we do need His help to choose belief, to choose righteousness. He gets all the glory, not 99%, He is the author of salvation. So John 3:16 is right, “whosoever believes in him shall not perish, bu have eternal life” but that belief is by the grace of God.

I love having theological talks and I am not and will not be angry with any believers who see it differently on this topic, I don’t want to be in a heated debate that divides faithful believers, I’m just laying out the best biblical view on this topic I can.

I idea of predestination and the idea thar our actions don't affect the outcome doesn't make since to me nor line up with the overall view or "big picture" painted in the Scriptures to me.

Was Adam & Eve already doomed or did they do that when they disobeyed God. Even then God covered them with something better than just leaves.

Thomas Jefferson had his own bible. He didnt write any of it just tossed out about the 90% he didnt think was true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysical_naturalism

I enjoy the conversations as well and I've never come away angry with someone who held a different view. Frustrated on occasion but never angry.

I've known several people who were brilliant but didn't believe the Bible. I've also known several brilliant people that do.

1st Corinthians 1:26-28

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.

This verse points out the effectual call of God.

It's true there are a few passages in the Bible that at first glance seem to contradict the idea of election. But when I read the Bible, I see the idea of election and divine predestination on nearly every page. I can see how someone might overlook it at first, but once you see it - it is literally everywhere. The reason people believe in predestination is because the Bible specifically says it's true about fifty gazillion times.

If you take the word "world" from John 3:16 and apply the same meaning to that word in John 3:17, you would be forced to a Universalist viewpoint and believe that every person who ever existed will be "saved" by Jesus Christ. We know that's not true based on the overwhelming propenderance of evidence in scripture specifically to the contrary.

The fact of election or predestination does NOT contradict that truth that anyone and everyone who believes, repents, and call by faith on the name of Jesus for salvation WILL be saved. To say that those ideas as conflicting is a gross misrepresentation or misunderstanding of the doctrine of election.

Just taking a wild guess here but does a flawed writers ideas follow thru into his writings as in the "Declaration of Independence". If that then how much deeper do those flaws go, maybe to the ankles, maybe to the knees? I guess when one starts flailing by discrediting a writer first its showing their dependency on having to grab a board just in case the waters are too deep.

Actions definitely matter, the book of James is about how our actions are evidence of a changed heart, a reborn person. We didn’t change our heart ourselves God did that, but if a person is reborn they will bear fruit. I think predestination is a tricky because just like everything we have to take it too extremes. The Bible talks about election enough that I don’t see how it is denied but that doesn’t mean we have no responsibility, or our actions don’t matter. Also when Paul says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, he means if you are saved you will behave like you are, so examine your life and if you are seeing fruit praise God for it and continue to follow Jesus and be sanctified, but if you are not seeing fruit you can start to wonder if you are really saved, we can’t just sit there and think “I’m elect, so who cares about fruit” or “I was baptized in middle school, so I’m good” we can’t lose our salvation but our actions go a long way to confirming the genuineness of it.

I'm curious how many professing Christians here have ever read Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. For those who have, did you see yourself in those pages?

I've heard passages like this, saying God desires that all should come to repentance, explained within the framework of God's permissive will versus his decretive or sovereign will. I guess that is to say that what He desires is not always the same as what He decrees or actually makes happen. For example, God wants and desires that all His children obey his commands. That is clearly and factually His will, want, or desire for how we should behave. But He doesn't impose His will on our actions in this way - we still violate His commands in multiple ways every hour of every day. In the same way, God may want and desire ALL to come to repentance, but for His own reasons and to His own glory, He has by the wise and holy counsel of His own will, determined that He will call and enable some to repentance and not others. I don't know who or why any more than anyone else does. But that's the way He says it is.

Salvation by grace through faith is a gift of God.

If you want to look into that concept of decretive vs. permissive will - there's probably hundreds of books and articles written on the subject - both for and against the idea. Here's one sample: https://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html