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Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Macthediver] #7583693
05/14/22 09:21 AM
05/14/22 09:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,955
Georgia
warrior Online content
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warrior  Online Content
trapper

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,955
Georgia
Originally Posted by Macthediver
Wolfdog91

I agree with you on so many points. What I posted above is some what meant as sarcastic.
Its not just trappers that run into what you could almost call soft anti. They are out there in all forms for everything from fishing to ATVing. On the edge of going one way or another based on one bad experience.

A lot of the problem comes from people who have a permit or stamp or license to do what ever their doing. So they go out and just run everyone and everything over.
Try running an air boat past a group of kayaks.. or even a loud mudmotor. Their are so many user group now all crammed into the same area. Everyone trying to do their thing with out being distributed or interfered with by others. Alot of it seems to me like people only caring about me mine and you are in my way.
Their is an individual who owns property on the same lake I do. He runs his very expensive ski boat with very expensive sound system around the lake. Not big deal right? There are several others with similar boats. Only this particular individual plays music while pulling skiers which is less than generally played in public setting. The F this F that.. it's not even that they play it. But I can clearly hear it from mile away. When this individual was politely asked to turn his volume down. He pretty much said F you your just jealous of my boat.
Now I'm the kind of person who would like to take my airboat. Go spin circle in front this guy property at midnight. I certainly have a right to.
But that makes me no better than him. So how do you deal with a person like that. If I was some just at the beach for the day and heard this guy. I would then think everyone with a boat like his would be the same kind of person.
So all those kind boat people are now pigeon holed as something to dislike should be ban? Right?

Their are so many people that do everything with a chip on their shoulder. Their rude and obnoxious and don't even know it or don't care. You have to sit by them at ball game. Fish by them on river. Pretty sure they are probably on the golf course. I don't play golf but I seen them while I was in the pond diving for golf balls.
That might all work fine for them in their little world. But when they interface in to a public setting. Then the issue begin.
Unfortunately the smallest users groups are first to get run over. I think us trappers unfortunately fall into a small user group. Only takes a few rude soccer mom type trappers make the rest look bad.

Mac


I think this isn't just an outdoors issue but a societal one.

And I for one will be pushing back, hard. We've got to win this current culture war if we ever hope to restore some semblance of order.

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: warrior] #7583708
05/14/22 09:35 AM
05/14/22 09:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,226
east central WI
D
Dirty D Offline
trapper
Dirty D  Offline
trapper
D

Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,226
east central WI
Originally Posted by warrior


I think this isn't just an outdoors issue but a societal one.

And I for one will be pushing back, hard. We've got to win this current culture war if we ever hope to restore some semblance of order.


your right about it not being just a outdoor problem.

I don't have a problem with pushing back and not giving ground but the "pushing back, hard" is where you get my attention. Do you mean getting an opponents face and screaming yelling and name calling? If so then thats where you and I part ways my freind.
A logical calm and reasoned response along with a calm conversation will convince more than screaming and yelling. You'll also come off as a more reasonable intelligent person than one who yells and calls names.
Just what Wolfie was trying to say in his post I believe.

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Macthediver] #7583725
05/14/22 09:50 AM
05/14/22 09:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,824
Juneau, Alaska 50
M
mad_mike Offline
trapper
mad_mike  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,824
Juneau, Alaska 50
Originally Posted by Macthediver
Wolfdog91

I agree with you on so many points. What I posted above is some what meant as sarcastic.
Its not just trappers that run into what you could almost call soft anti. They are out there in all forms for everything from fishing to ATVing. On the edge of going one way or another based on one bad experience.

A lot of the problem comes from people who have a permit or stamp or license to do what ever their doing. So they go out and just run everyone and everything over.
Try running an air boat past a group of kayaks.. or even a loud mudmotor. Their are so many user group now all crammed into the same area. Everyone trying to do their thing with out being distributed or interfered with by others. Alot of it seems to me like people only caring about me mine and you are in my way.
Their is an individual who owns property on the same lake I do. He runs his very expensive ski boat with very expensive sound system around the lake. Not big deal right? There are several others with similar boats. Only this particular individual plays music while pulling skiers which is less than generally played in public setting. The F this F that.. it's not even that they play it. But I can clearly hear it from mile away. When this individual was politely asked to turn his volume down. He pretty much said F you your just jealous of my boat.
Now I'm the kind of person who would like to take my airboat. Go spin circle in front this guy property at midnight. I certainly have a right to.
But that makes me no better than him. So how do you deal with a person like that. If I was some just at the beach for the day and heard this guy. I would then think everyone with a boat like his would be the same kind of person.
So all those kind boat people are now pigeon holed as something to dislike should be ban? Right?

Their are so many people that do everything with a chip on their shoulder. Their rude and obnoxious and don't even know it or don't care. You have to sit by them at ball game. Fish by them on river. Pretty sure they are probably on the golf course. I don't play golf but I seen them while I was in the pond diving for golf balls.
That might all work fine for them in their little world. But when they interface in to a public setting. Then the issue begin.
Unfortunately the smallest users groups are first to get run over. I think us trappers unfortunately fall into a small user group. Only takes a few rude soccer mom type trappers make the rest look bad.

Mac


I can relate to the “user group” conflict with the airboats. I have seen kayakers do nearly animated displays of discontent as I pass them, many hundreds of feet away, covering their ears, waving paddles and middle fingers, even paddling towards the course I am on. My solution is to just keep driving, eyes forward, and give them zero reaction. They can do and behave however they want and the only thing I have control over is myself. There have been several times when the hippy butt, tree hugging, bunny sniffin’ kayakers have been at the launch ramp when I come rolling in and see what is dead in the boat on it’s first ride. They are almost always excited to see and talk about the beaver, wolves, wolverine etc. for a while. Those conversations are usually good and from my perspective they take nothing negative away from it.
Whizz on them if they don’t like it, cool if they do. I will do me and continue to try and be decent you do you.

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Dirty D] #7583731
05/14/22 09:55 AM
05/14/22 09:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,955
Georgia
warrior Online content
trapper
warrior  Online Content
trapper

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,955
Georgia
Originally Posted by Dirty D
Originally Posted by warrior


I think this isn't just an outdoors issue but a societal one.

And I for one will be pushing back, hard. We've got to win this current culture war if we ever hope to restore some semblance of order.


your right about it not being just a outdoor problem.

I don't have a problem with pushing back and not giving ground but the "pushing back, hard" is where you get my attention. Do you mean getting an opponents face and screaming yelling and name calling? If so then thats where you and I part ways my freind.
A logical calm and reasoned response along with a calm conversation will convince more than screaming and yelling. You'll also come off as a more reasonable intelligent person than one who yells and calls names.
Just what Wolfie was trying to say in his post I believe.


No need for screaming. But definitely setting boundaries and penalizing those who won't stay on there side.

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Wolfdog91] #7583827
05/14/22 12:47 PM
05/14/22 12:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,719
West Central MN
20scout Offline
trapper
20scout  Offline
trapper

Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,719
West Central MN
We have lots of expensive lake homes around my area and on occasion get a call about beavers cutting down someone's trees on their expensive lake shore. Had one such call a few years back just like this. Unfortunately in order to gain access to the colony I had to cross another person's property. I introduced myself and in a professional manner explained my situation. When I asked if I could get permission she declined saying they love to watch the beaver swim buy in the early morning or evenings. And it wasn't her problem if others didn't like them. Being so limited I did manage to catch a few to satisfy my client but knew there where more. Fast forward a few years and low and behold got a call from the property owner who declined me permission. She explained that the (this word is unacceptable on trapman.com) beaver where now cutting her expensive lakeshore trees and that I needed to get rid of them by any means. Unfortunately the damage was done and it was an expensive lesson for here but she now understands the importance of management. She is also a member of the lakes association and has become a great supporter for management. Funny how no o e seems to care about other people's critter problems until they experience similar problems.


Common sense is a not a vegetable that does well in everyone's garden.
Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Wolfdog91] #7583836
05/14/22 01:23 PM
05/14/22 01:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,549
new york
M
mike mason Offline
trapper
mike mason  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,549
new york
Lost cause don't waste you time.

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Wolfdog91] #7583847
05/14/22 01:32 PM
05/14/22 01:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 15,020
pa
H
hippie Offline
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hippie  Offline
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H

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 15,020
pa
Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Originally Posted by white dog

Conversation instead of confrontation. Developing rapport is an essential component when trying to influence thoughts. Or at least that’s my experience.

Convincing someone that something is ethical and morally right is much more important than telling them you have a legal right. The simple solution if someone uses the legal right argument is to change the law. We have seen many examples of that over the past 40 years.


Yep, that what I can't get into alot of trappers heads. They'll do something that gets Karen up in flames and can't understand why she's still mad when they explain something is legal to do. Theirs 100 upon thousands of things that are legal to do but just plain ain't right so that's a crappy argument.



Dog, there are crass people in all walks of life and I don't think any of us dispute there are in trapping. Are you going to convince every trapper to have feelings for antis and talk softly around them? Nope.

Will all antis try to see your sweet talk and consider it? Nope.

It is in our interest to be discrete in our activities, without a doubt. Living in a state that has probably 10x the the trappers than most states and learning the trade during the boom years of the '70s, one learned quick to do your business Incognito or your catch wasn't there the next day. That same works for avoiding antis.

And IMO, what most here call an anti isn't going to give you time to woo them with sweet talk, your dealing with a fence rider if they listen to your spiel.

The point your trying to make is good, but like a couple said, I wouldn't demonize the vast majority of trappers over a few.

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Wolfdog91] #7583893
05/14/22 03:19 PM
05/14/22 03:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 8,140
Amite county Mississippi
Wolfdog91 Offline OP
trapper
Wolfdog91  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 8,140
Amite county Mississippi
Seems alot of y'all are missing key points I've tried to make....


Trappermans Resident Black Guy
The Black Redneck! 22yrs
MS National Guardsmen
I Like Moddin Traps 'N Trapping Possums
Go Ordnance!!!!
Tman Archivist
Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Wolfdog91] #7583922
05/14/22 05:17 PM
05/14/22 05:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,268
AK
W
white dog Offline
trapper
white dog  Offline
trapper
W

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,268
AK

Wolfdog, My suggestion is to attend or work a trapping booth at a public event. I think you’ll find trappers who are far more interested in informing people than confronting them. Other than a few hard core antis you’ll find many people who may not walk away supporting trapping but there is a chance they won’t be vocal opponents.




Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Wolfdog91] #7583936
05/14/22 05:41 PM
05/14/22 05:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 8,061
Louisiana
Aix sponsa Offline
trapper
Aix sponsa  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 8,061
Louisiana
Very important topic you brought up, and I think you did a great job mentioning why it’s important not to push it, not everyone is an extremist, and so on. I wholeheartedly agree that it’s a mistake to intentionally irritate those that are just regular everyday citizens that just happen to disagree with what we do based on their limited knowledge of what we do. Those are the ones we “might” get to stand with us, but we definitely need them to not stand against us. Intentionally posting gore, injury photos, etc just to try trolling them is a sure fire way to get on the road to losing our way of life.



It is imperative that we choose our words carefully, even in casual conversation, because the wrong words being used to describe our equipment or methods is potentially harmful to our cause. Remember, the people WE talk to might be reasonable, but if they then talk about our conversations, we want them to use the right words. In my opinion, trappers need to stop using words like “DROWNERS” and “leg holds” because it plays right into the antis hands. Submersion rigs and footholds are a much better choice of words to describe these tools.


Also, I think it’s a mistake to apologize for fur trapping in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Sure, we’ll get other uses from the animal when we can, but never, ever make it sound like there’s something wrong simply fur trapping. It’s something to be proud of, never to be ashamed of. Being soft on front gives the antis a serious foothold. Think about it, if they get a Trapper to say it’s wrong to fur trap, then that allows them to say “Look! Even trappers say that if an animal isn’t being a documented nuisance animal then there’s no reason to trap it!” —-not something we need.

Fur trapping is part of this Great Nation’s history, an incredibly important part of its history I might add, as well as fur products being a durable, renewable resource that will keep people warm for decades not weeks.


Another point to key in on is the fact that sportsmen and women support conservation by their purchases and license sales. You’re right, we can love animals AND hunt, fish, and trap.



Overall, I think you did a good job explaining your message, I just wanted to mention a few things.


Keep spreading the word buddy

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Wolfdog91] #7584010
05/14/22 08:31 PM
05/14/22 08:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,103
Virginia
5
52Carl Offline
trapper
52Carl  Offline
trapper
5

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,103
Virginia
Originally Posted by Wolfdog91
Seems alot of y'all are missing key points I've tried to make....

Me thinks that you would be more successful in changing the minds of folks who don't know the truth about what trapping is all about, than convincing a significant percentage of the trappers visiting this site (not the majority of them, but a higher percentage than I am comfortable with). That, to me is sad.
But then again, if one is not skilled in communication with others of different backgrounds, one should probably not engage in any discussion with them.
We, as trappers, would be better off if they did not.
Personally, I have been successful with the most anti of the antis, talking them off the ledge concerning trapping and other controversial wildlife management techniques. I'm talking about ladies who were not able to talk to me without sobbing the entire time.
The key to turning them around to think rationally was allow them to speak their piece without interruption no matter how absurd their points were. They have a lot to get off their chest. You must allow them to do so without interrupting. I repeated this because it is that important.
Once they began to repeat themselves, that was my clue to politely step in and ask them if I could share me personal opinion on this matter.
Surprisingly they would say, "Why, of course."
I can then casually give my take on why I must do what I have to do.
Listening to their side of the story was painful to listen to, but listening to them was key for us to actually have a dialog, and since I had the advantage of the truth, It went my way. I have to admit that I was not expecting to make any headway with any of these instances, and was shocked that I got through to them.

Last edited by 52Carl; 05/14/22 08:33 PM.
Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Wolfdog91] #7584088
05/14/22 11:30 PM
05/14/22 11:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,904
MN
M
Mark K Offline
trapper
Mark K  Offline
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M

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Posts: 4,904
MN
The best way for an anti to be converted is to have a group of beaver cut their thousands of dollars worth of trees the first night they are planted.

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Wolfdog91] #7584090
05/14/22 11:34 PM
05/14/22 11:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,268
AK
W
white dog Offline
trapper
white dog  Offline
trapper
W

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Posts: 4,268
AK
A true anti would pay you to remove them and continue to condemn the hobbie trappers who fur trap.




Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Mark K] #7584573
05/15/22 08:55 PM
05/15/22 08:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,103
Virginia
5
52Carl Offline
trapper
52Carl  Offline
trapper
5

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,103
Virginia
Originally Posted by Mark K
The best way for an anti to be converted is to have a group of beaver cut their thousands of dollars worth of trees the first night they are planted.

I had an anti lady converted overnight due to a huge oak almost hitting her million dollar home felled by a beaver. Her husband told me to "kill them all" as per her wishes. So I did.

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: 52Carl] #7584623
05/15/22 09:52 PM
05/15/22 09:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 140
Iowa
TrapperDR Offline
trapper
TrapperDR  Offline
trapper

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Posts: 140
Iowa
There is a long game and a short game to trapping fur. Many people fall into the short game and lose sight of how to keep this industry alive. Trapping became important because of industrialization of the time. It has now lost traction because of the same nature. Like most trends it will become import again with the right circumstances.

The "new thinkers and adventures" of the times made trapping a life style. It wasn't the old timers and non adventures who were fur traders. Those on here who despise a new way of thinking or finding adventure really don't pay homage to how (our) tradition came of importance and will likely be an end to it whether they understand their impact or not.

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Wolfdog91] #7584637
05/15/22 10:07 PM
05/15/22 10:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 24,550
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

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Posts: 24,550
williamsburg ks
Today you will have to hire out for damage control. Meet someone elses expectations. I have a real hard time with that. Selling fur you can work as hard or as little as you want to. Dont have to make anyone else happy. That working to make a customer happy kinda sours trapping for me.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: danny clifton] #7584648
05/15/22 10:16 PM
05/15/22 10:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 140
Iowa
TrapperDR Offline
trapper
TrapperDR  Offline
trapper

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Posts: 140
Iowa
That statement isn't correct Danny. You can still sell fur regardless, you just have made up your mind that selling fur doesn't meet your expectations, which is fine. I wouldn't give up my job to make a living off of trapping right now either but regardless you still have the choice.

Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Wolfdog91] #7584653
05/15/22 10:20 PM
05/15/22 10:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 10,596
Oakland, MS
Drifter Offline
trapper
Drifter  Offline
trapper

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Posts: 10,596
Oakland, MS
Want to reach a lot of folks? Help your area boy scouts do as Trailblazers event. I was lucky and attended one when I was in Illinois. The parents that came along were as interested as the scouts. We had taxidermy mounts as well as tanned fur for them to handle as well as see. There are a ton of folks that are on the fence or even could care less one way or the other. We had over 500 that day.


Experience only teaches the teachable.

Aldous Huxley









Life member NTA , and GA Trappers assoc .
Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: Wolfdog91] #7584657
05/15/22 10:24 PM
05/15/22 10:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 24,550
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Offline
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 24,550
williamsburg ks
You mean I think trapperDR, you can give it away. Why should you let someone else make money on a commodity your taking a loss on?????????

Anti's ARE the #1 reason there is no fur market. All this talk about trapping even at a loss infuriates soccer moms. They don't like people who kill for fun. You can crawdad and say well its to benefit the species as a whole or to protect my sweet corn or the neighbors calves. Don't matter. She already heard you say "I kill for fun". She will roll up in a petroleum derived garment so fast your head will spin and vote to stop you from legally harvesting fur.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: On the subject Converting "Antis" [Re: danny clifton] #7584671
05/15/22 10:33 PM
05/15/22 10:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 140
Iowa
TrapperDR Offline
trapper
TrapperDR  Offline
trapper

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 140
Iowa
Originally Posted by danny clifton
You mean I think trapperDR, you can give it away. Why should you let someone else make money on a commodity your taking a loss on?????????

Anti's ARE the #1 reason there is no fur market. All this talk about trapping even at a loss infuriates soccer moms. They don't like people who kill for fun. You can crawdad and say well its to benefit the species as a whole or to protect my sweet corn or the neighbors calves. Don't matter. She already heard you say "I kill for fun". She will roll up in a petroleum derived garment so fast your head will spin and vote to stop you from legally harvesting fur.


No I don't believe in giving away anything unless it's for charity. I simply mean in times of supply and demand everyone has a choice. You can either choose to work hard for more and make less or work for a difference means of income. Either way the choice is still there. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but you work or had worked in the trucking industry. Had the pay been too low for you to value your rates in that industry you would have chosen another avenue.

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