Bee keepers replacement queen? Russians or?
#7590645
05/24/22 11:27 PM
05/24/22 11:27 PM
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 8,860 Indiana
Providence Farm
OP
trapper
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OP
trapper
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 8,860
Indiana
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Inspected my hives today. Out of 10 it looks like 5 do not have queens. One had some queen cells. One had older caped brood and eggs last week but no eggs or uncapped brood today.
I tried to requeen with virgin queens a few weeks ago but I didn't see them or any eggs. They were also humming like they were queen less.
One was a split I tried.
So I think I will double check this weekend and if no queen I will combine the smallest ones with my new swarms and re queen the larger hives. I'm planning on driving to man lake after work on Friday to pick up some mated queens and my mentor suggested Russians ,he says that they winter better and produce well but may be a bit more aggressive than Italians. They have Italians and Russian queen hybrid mated with Italians as well.
What do you like.
All my bees are from swarms. I have had 100% winter survival my first two winters. It the spring when they swarm and farmers spray when I loose my quees and have trouble. Maybe I was just needing to requeen anyway but this will be my 3rd summer and I may not get any honey yet again. ( first year swarms I just feed and let build so no honey the firs summer)
What queens do you prefer and why?
Last edited by Providence Farm; 05/24/22 11:28 PM.
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Re: Bee keepers replacement queen? Russians or?
[Re: Kent Smith]
#7590676
05/25/22 12:33 AM
05/25/22 12:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 8,860 Indiana
Providence Farm
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OP
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PF,
In bad, rainy, cool weather it can take a week "or more" for virgin queens to fly out and breed. Then two to four days after that to lay and then very small patches of eggs for a few days. If I anticipate a hive might be queen less and they are still strong, I put a frame of less that 3 day old eggs from another hive in it. Within 3 days they will be drawing out a queen cell unless you have laying workers.
If you have queen cells they will not accept a new queen unless all cells are destroyed. You could put the queen cell frames above a strong hive with a queen excluder between. You would need to drill a hole under the hand hole on the box big enough for the new queen to fly out and breed. Once she is laying you can start a hive or join her with another queen less hive using a newspaper.
How to join hives and how to get rid of laying workers is another lesson.
TrapperKent 45 years of bee keeping As of today I don't have any laying workers. Had that problem on two hives last year. Learned to stay up on my hive inspections in the spring. But I didn't have a hive with extra open brood I was willing to put in with them. So I put a screen between one with laying workers and a queen right hive on the bottom with the entrance facing position directions. I figured after 3 weeks it should correct and I could combine them. But it didn't work. I think the farmer sprayed and I lost the queen on the bottom during that time or I didn't freeze laying workers frams or just remove them. Either way it did not work Again this year my only queen right hives are this years swarms and they have only been hived a week or two. They only have one to 3 frams with brood and smaller populations. So I'm not willing to take anything from them yet. It's a definite learning experience and a fun and frustrating journey. I never dreamed I would consider calling into work just so I could check on my bees. Hopefully this weekend some of those queen less hive have some egg in them and not 4 or 5 per cell laying workers eggs. Part of the reason I want to get this re queeing done fast. Waiting on these virgan quees during the honey flow and watching to population stagnate is tough. Any preference on breed of bee? I think I need to start requeening in the summer because with swarms I'm probably getting old queens and by spring thay are past their prime. A young queen should hit the ground running. Also I need to work on my swarm management.
Last edited by Providence Farm; 05/25/22 12:36 AM.
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Re: Bee keepers replacement queen? Russians or?
[Re: Calvin]
#7590789
05/25/22 08:18 AM
05/25/22 08:18 AM
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Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 279 Minnesota
Northernbeaver
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trapper
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 279
Minnesota
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Quit buying bugs and learn how to let them make their own (It's SIMPLE) You will usually get better/stronger bees in the end, too. And quit worrying about what breed. Most end up being mutts down the road anyhow...which I will argue is better.
That said, It kind of depends on your end goal. If it's purely honey production then buy away as you will lose a little time in the self sufficient make your own queen stage.
Most of us know meaner bees "Generally" put up the most honey. So maybe Russians are your answer. Best to just have more and gentler bees, IMO.
Start now for next years hive count/Honey production. You can turn your remaining 5 hives into 10-15 without buying bees. Then double that next year (or more) if you wanted to....and quit buying those inferior california wimpy bees. Well they don't survive well up here anyhow.
And never toss out or squish swarm cells. They make GREAT queens. Better that what most can graft.
Calvin, how do you winterize your hives?
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Re: Bee keepers replacement queen? Russians or?
[Re: Northernbeaver]
#7590877
05/25/22 10:23 AM
05/25/22 10:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,425 Georgia
warrior
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,425
Georgia
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I'm a Saskatraz or Carniolan guy. The Saskatraz I've had are unbelievably calm. I've had bees in the past that would attack from 10 feet away and would chase for a hundred yards, those were MN Hygienic from nucs but I think the company I bought them from were bad to them. The Saskatraz I've had are the exact opposite, majority of the summer I don't even where a suit because they are so calm. They produce honey nicely as well. Just a note on the MN hygienic. The hygienic trait in this line is based upon a recessive gene. I long suspected that as I never got a daughter queen as good as the queens I bought. I confirmed that when I had the opportunity to speak to Dr Spivak at a state conference. She said it was indeed a recessive trait and the University of Minnesota maintained that trait by controlled mating by setting up the mating yards with drone mother colonies carrying the trait and that it is easily lost if you don't. The University has since gotten out of maintaining the stock and passed the program off to private breeders but according to her only a couple breeders are trying to keep the trait by controlling the drones.
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Re: Bee keepers replacement queen? Russians or?
[Re: TreedaBlackdog]
#7590878
05/25/22 10:26 AM
05/25/22 10:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,425 Georgia
warrior
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,425
Georgia
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Making queens after the summer equinox (june 21) is also very beneficial for varroa brood breaks and having a queen rearing to go next spring. I have read and proven that queens raised after this date will have no issues with varroa this winter and as long as they are a proven layer will be what you want starting your hives next spring. Most guys like to re-queen in spring - but I like to re-queen in late June/July. These queens really turn it on and make a nice hive going into fall/winter that comes on gang busters early spring. I'm another one that likes a late queen. Not so much for varroa, though a brood break mid to late summer is good, but they are less prone to hit the trees come spring.
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Re: Bee keepers replacement queen? Russians or?
[Re: Calvin]
#7590886
05/25/22 10:48 AM
05/25/22 10:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,425 Georgia
warrior
trapper
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trapper
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Posts: 25,425
Georgia
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Quit buying bugs and learn how to let them make their own (It's SIMPLE) You will usually get better/stronger bees in the end, too. And quit worrying about what breed. Most end up being mutts down the road anyhow...which I will argue is better.
That said, It kind of depends on your end goal. If it's purely honey production then buy away as you will lose a little time in the self sufficient make your own queen stage.
Most of us know meaner bees "Generally" put up the most honey. So maybe Russians are your answer. Best to just have more and gentler bees, IMO.
Start now for next years hive count/Honey production. You can turn your remaining 5 hives into 10-15 without buying bees. Then double that next year (or more) if you wanted to....and quit buying those inferior california wimpy bees. Well they don't survive well up here anyhow.
And never toss out or squish swarm cells. They make GREAT queens. Better that what most can graft.
Agreed locally adapted is the way to go with one caveat. If you start with junk you'll end up with junk. I went down the feral survivor pathway for a few years. While there are indeed ferals surviving here the adaptations they've made to survive such as small brood nests and shutting down brood at the the drop of a hat when the flow stops makes for small colonies that only put up enough honey to barely get by make them useless to a honey producer. Don't get me wrong they are good tough little bees that don't require a bunch of treatment to live they just don't put up surpluses worth their keep. What I try to do now is to work from stock that is productive AND has the lowest mite counts with emphasis given to mite counts. I've been able to do some upgrading by bringing in new VSH queens from time to time trying to blend in some good stuff.
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Re: Bee keepers replacement queen? Russians or?
[Re: Providence Farm]
#7590902
05/25/22 11:10 AM
05/25/22 11:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,162 KY
ksp107
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trapper
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KY
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Ive had Italians, Russians and Carniolan queens....
By far, my favorite is the Carniolans due to their gentle nature and honey production. Seems like mine like to forage more than the others on cool, overcast days as well.
I did pick up some packages early this year from David at "Barnyard Bees" in Chatsworth, Georgia. They have went like gangbusters since I installed them in late March. VERY gentle bees I will add, I can weed eat around my hives and they dont pay a bit of attention to me.
Last edited by ksp107; 05/25/22 11:17 AM.
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Re: Bee keepers replacement queen? Russians or?
[Re: Providence Farm]
#7591056
05/25/22 02:25 PM
05/25/22 02:25 PM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 706 Michigan
BigBlackBirds
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Providence Farm
here is my primary advice----try to be patient this time of year eventhough it is hard. I primarily sell overwintered nucs come spring (last week April usually) but ocassionally sell some nucs and queens this time of year also. The number one call I get during the month of May (which covers most of our swarm season) is "I need a queen, mine is gone". The vast majority of the time Ive concluded things arent as bad as what they think. Often when things look the most hopeless for the colony all of a sudden a new queen starts laying. Heavy type swarming like you seem to be describing can make for a mess; more cells made the bigger the potential mess as the fighting and after swarming commences. And the bigger the colony numbers the longer it might take for things to get back to normal. Then throw in spring weather that delays flights and it gets even more funky. And for a beekeeper without some experience what they tend to focus on is no brood, backfilled nest, etc which causes immediate panic of queenlessness. What they dont pick up on is the very minor differences in behavior exhibited by a colony with capped cells vs newly emerged virgin vs 1-2 day old mated queen vs queen that is just laying very first eggs. So patience can be a blessing as you wait this out and hope for the best. Now there is a time to panic when all chances of mated queen are over and maybe you are at that point. This is about the time of year when i start to see my first mating failures and start shaking bees out of equipment so you may be at that point also.
here are some general comments about coming out of winter and going into spring time in "northern areas" (not sure where you are at within Indiana but its close enough to Michigan that this might apply). March and April can be the hardest months to endure. There might be early pollen and nectar from willows and maples etc but you might see two very different scenarios play out (along with anything in between). At one extreme, big colonies that have limited ability to environmentally regulate---in other words what we might generally refer to as being seen in italian/southern style bees that have the potential eat them selves outta house and home when wintered in the north. They'll overdo the brood and then the weather will turn horrible and you'll be left wondering if they make it to the dandelions or not. Nothing wrong with this but gotta keep it in mind for managment. Versus smaller clustered bees that tend to regulate to environment but have their own issues----trait that would widely be exhibited by carnica type stock. They winter on small clusters from fall to spring but they tend to boom once weather changes which immediately puts them on the verge of swarming. Again nothing wrong but takes plenty of management also. But what i've seen as the biggest issue come spring since tracheal and varroa arrived has been the colonies that simply colapse or struggle to recover come spring. these colonies often have been impacted by issues startign all the way back in fall and by spring they are simply at the end of the road. then add in issues of contaminates that have impacted the life span of typical queen and there are way more spring queen failures than what i ever saw years before or what my dad and earlier generations ever recall seeing.
couple thoughts on dealing with spring time swarming and splitting, etc given what you wrote----not always but often trying to give colonies virgins can be as tricky as giving mated queens. You'll have awful good success using virgins to make splits from a colony where that virgin was raised but sometimes giving them to colony that didnt raise them without an introduction can be harder. if you find capped cells your success rate in moving those between colonies will be much better. Additionally, mating out of smallest amount of frames/bees/resources gives you the quickest route to a laying queen. you can feed queenless bees back to the mating setup and end up back in business pretty quickly.
i'm not sure what to tell you regarding various bees to try. i've tried all of them with associated pluses and minues. if you think that you will be routinely buying queens maybe try a handful of various types and go from there. if you arent planning to routinely buy queens just keep in mind that after a couple of generations youll get a mix of all type of genetics anyway particularly with only a few hives. it takes a decent amount of drones or good isolation to maintain particular traits within a stock. not sure what you have to deal with in your area---around here when mating i try to stay out of the intense commercial apiary areas but i'm still negatively impacted by the southern and california packages that are brought in. of popular bees here are my thoughts which might be different than what others will say but its something to start with:
italians---i'm not a huge fan for the primary reason that they often get hurt by the weather.. when i know the basics genes have mixed in i tend to do pretty good with them when run as 3 deep configuration which gives a buffer of resources come spring time as im not a bee feeder. in this climate they do horrible for me when run as single deeps; nearly guaranteed starvation whereas other bees will do fine in that configuration. they have lots of bees and brood for alot of the year and as such have the potential to make lots of honey if the nectar is there. And they tend to be friendly. late brood rearing can make for good winter bees to help make it to spring and keep them from petering out but the flip side is late brood rearing can also lead to longer mite cycle. one significant advantage to being in the north is a lengthier brood break that helps with varroa. my opinion is run of the mill italians tend to be less tolerant of disease overall but something like minnesota hygenics are basically a highly selected version of them with some other traits tossed in that are much more disease tolerant .
carnica--on one hand i like them alot as they slow right down for the winter. make small clusters, very quiet on combs in winter, dont take much stores. they also make for a nice cross exhibiting hybrid vigor and great production; can be run in single box and make good comb honey. but they are potentially swarmy buggers. and along with vigor comes the bad cross outcomes like the extreme swarming potential. i've got plenty of genes from old school carniolans and new worlds mixed in. and if i'm looking for something with a potential true pedigree to add to gene pool i often get a few of these out of california. as a rule they are pretty good across a range of brood disease and sue cobbey put alot of selection pressure on them for their hygenic traits. if i was picking between italian and carniolan for north it would be the latter.
caucasian---i like a bee that can seal up for the winter with propolis so i like them. i tend to add some to the mix every now and then.
buckfast---weaver american version provides a strong basis of the stock ive worked with for long time. reason being it held strong tracheal resistance and were primary survivors that we were left with back in the 80's. whereas most of the italian type stock croaked when tracheal mites hit. i havent purchased them in really long time. they also ended up with a reputation for being on the hot side as africanized bees moved into texas. and even prior to that timeframe they were known to produce ornery crosses but i still always found them to be highly disease tolerant and worth having. in recent years canadian version of buckfast has been a favorite of mine instead and i've used a bunch of canadian buckfast breeders. they are a favorite but you arent going to be able to readily purchase them either. but i wouldnt be afraid to try some weaver stock and that might be an option for you.
russians----i used them alot on the front end when they were first released by usda. as one of the prominent breeders of them told me afterwards when he was looking at my resulting colonies--they sure dont seem to nicely combine with your stock. i had a hard time seeing immediate upsides to their genes but saw lots of bad negatives arise--extreme swarming, tendency to chimney brood nest all way to cover, fairly ornery. HOWEVER i eventually saw alot of mite grooming traits pop up and i assumed it most likely came from their gene pool. If you opt to buy russians, i'd suggest getting them from someone in russian honey bee breeders association so that you are likely to get something that is pure as you might not be so happy with a cross.
vsh---worth looking at. i stay fairly quiet on the subject as we were involved in providing a large % of stock to the usda which they utilized to produce what is now called vsh. if you start trying to make splits and your own queens in future it could be worth adding to gene pool but i wouldnt try looking for a production vsh queen to buy
last note---dont get lulled into being complacent about winter. its great that you had two good winterings but its a small sample. you'll find that everything looks great for 7-8-9 years in a row and then bammmm you start heading off the rails. beekeeping and varroa tend to run in a constant cyclical flow now. often just depends where you are at on the rollercoaster ride at any given year
Good luck with the bees
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