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largest teacher union votes to end school policing #7620842
07/06/22 06:35 PM
07/06/22 06:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,074
North East Kansas
Marty Offline OP
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Marty  Offline OP
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North East Kansas


E
'Honey Badger Militia'
Sleep, the anti woke adote.
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620846
07/06/22 06:39 PM
07/06/22 06:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 4,581
MN
D
Donnersurvivor Offline
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Donnersurvivor  Offline
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Posts: 4,581
MN
Another reason my kids will be homeschooling.

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620849
07/06/22 06:41 PM
07/06/22 06:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 20,337
The Hill Country of Texas
Leftlane Offline
"HOSS"
Leftlane  Offline
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The Hill Country of Texas
What a bunch of pukes!


“What’s good for me may not be good for the weak minded.”
Captain Gus McCrae- Texas Rangers


Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620852
07/06/22 06:46 PM
07/06/22 06:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 1,473
Over there.
F
Flicker Shad Offline
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Flicker Shad  Offline
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Over there.
Public schools are terrible.

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620853
07/06/22 06:47 PM
07/06/22 06:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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Catch22  Offline
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OH
Here's an idea. How about teachers, who by the way are not psychiatrist, not trained social workers, not safety experts, just do there job and teach a non biased education to the kids. Leave everything else alone.


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Catch22] #7620854
07/06/22 06:49 PM
07/06/22 06:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 1,473
Over there.
F
Flicker Shad Offline
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Flicker Shad  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 1,473
Over there.
Originally Posted by Catch22
Here's an idea. How about teachers, who by the way are not psychiatrist, not trained social workers, not safety experts, just do there job and teach a non biased education to the kids. Leave everything else alone.

It's not really the teachers. It's the unions that run the curriculum.

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Flicker Shad] #7620865
07/06/22 07:00 PM
07/06/22 07:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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Catch22  Offline
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Originally Posted by Flicker Shad
Originally Posted by Catch22
Here's an idea. How about teachers, who by the way are not psychiatrist, not trained social workers, not safety experts, just do there job and teach a non biased education to the kids. Leave everything else alone.

It's not really the teachers. It's the unions that run the curriculum.

If your a teacher your in the Union, if over 90% voted for this, it's the Teachers.


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620866
07/06/22 07:01 PM
07/06/22 07:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,074
North East Kansas
Marty Offline OP
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North East Kansas
people can home school all they want to and that is probably a great idea but they and their kids will still have to deal with the results of the public education system every day.


E
'Honey Badger Militia'
Sleep, the anti woke adote.
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620893
07/06/22 07:38 PM
07/06/22 07:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,879
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
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williamsburg ks
When I was in school we brought our own guns. Usually out in the parking lot in a vehicle. The male teachers did too and I am sure a few females. Principals were men and straightened out kids with out law enforcement. When the cops hide during a school shooting what good are they anyway? The answer at least partly, puts an age limit of 21 on all video game purchases and holding kids accountable for their actions. Remember the "board" of education? If mom or dad whines cause little johnny got touched up then expel him from ALL public school and let mom and dad worry about educating him. retarded kids and mentally ill kids need to have their own school's again. Putting them all in the same class room is NOT working


Video games are a bigger threat to kids health than alcohol and tobacco by far

Last edited by danny clifton; 07/06/22 07:40 PM.

Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620896
07/06/22 07:39 PM
07/06/22 07:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,879
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
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Joined: Dec 2006
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williamsburg ks
P.S. there were no school shootings


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620899
07/06/22 07:44 PM
07/06/22 07:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 21,042
St. Louis Co, Mo
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BigBob Offline
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St. Louis Co, Mo
Yeppers, that's a development from the "Game Boy", and Video Generation.


Every kid needs a Dog and a Curmudgeon.

Remember Bowe Bergdahl, the traitor.

Beware! Jill Pudlewski, Ron Oates and Keven Begesse are liars and thiefs!
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: danny clifton] #7620901
07/06/22 07:45 PM
07/06/22 07:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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Catch22  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2015
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OH
Originally Posted by danny clifton
P.S. there were no school shootings

X1000!


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: BigBob] #7620912
07/06/22 07:52 PM
07/06/22 07:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 1,473
Over there.
F
Flicker Shad Offline
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Flicker Shad  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 1,473
Over there.
Originally Posted by BigBob
Yeppers, that's a development from the "Game Boy", and Video Generation.

Internet and social media has just as much negative effect as video games.

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620916
07/06/22 07:55 PM
07/06/22 07:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,879
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
D

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,879
williamsburg ks
Internet and social media doesnt have them playing real looking games where they steal cars, pick up hookers, murder and burn. for hours on end


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: danny clifton] #7620918
07/06/22 07:58 PM
07/06/22 07:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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Catch22  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Originally Posted by danny clifton
When I was in school we brought our own guns. Usually out in the parking lot in a vehicle. The male teachers did too and I am sure a few females. Principals were men and straightened out kids with out law enforcement. When the cops hide during a school shooting what good are they anyway? The answer at least partly, puts an age limit of 21 on all video game purchases and holding kids accountable for their actions. Remember the "board" of education? If mom or dad whines cause little johnny got touched up then expel him from ALL public school and let mom and dad worry about educating him. retarded kids and mentally ill kids need to have their own school's again. Putting them all in the same class room is NOT working


Video games are a bigger threat to kids health than alcohol and tobacco by far

I would include Academia.


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620919
07/06/22 07:58 PM
07/06/22 07:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,270
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
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Maine, Aroostook
It seems like they're digging in their heels in hopes the Democrats unilaterally decide to confiscate the four hundred million or so guns estimated to be in the country. Why not, they've thrown every other norm out the window.

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Posco] #7620925
07/06/22 08:06 PM
07/06/22 08:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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Originally Posted by Posco
It seems like they're digging in their heels in hopes the Democrats unilaterally decide to confiscate the four hundred million or so guns estimated to be in the country. Why not, they've thrown every other norm out the window.

Well, what sense does it make that Teachers would vote to not keep kids safe? To me it proves that they truly don't care about kids safety, just their agenda. That tells the tale for me. I'm not a fan of coming up with laws when the parents and principals should handle things proper. But, it's clear that they aren't so I agree with Danny, put a age restriction on video games, same as movies. There are things in those games youngins shouldn't be seeing.


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Catch22] #7620928
07/06/22 08:12 PM
07/06/22 08:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 11,270
Maine, Aroostook
Posco Offline
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Posco  Offline
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Maine, Aroostook
Originally Posted by Catch22
Originally Posted by Posco
It seems like they're digging in their heels in hopes the Democrats unilaterally decide to confiscate the four hundred million or so guns estimated to be in the country. Why not, they've thrown every other norm out the window.

Well, what sense does it make that Teachers would vote to not keep kids safe? To me it proves that they truly don't care about kids safety, just their agenda. That tells the tale for me. I'm not a fan of coming up with laws when the parents and principals should handle things proper. But, it's clear that they aren't so I agree with Danny, put a age restriction on video games, same as movies. There are things in those games youngins shouldn't be seeing.

It makes no sense as a stopgap measure. The NEA is a leftist organization pushing a leftist agenda. They've held American kids hostage for decades.

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620939
07/06/22 08:24 PM
07/06/22 08:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 10,135
Marion Kansas
Y
Yes sir Offline
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Marion Kansas
It's all about protecting the kids. And seriously some believe it.....I even saw a post were someone believed Gates was buying land in ND for the kids in Africa also.

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620942
07/06/22 08:31 PM
07/06/22 08:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,879
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
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williamsburg ks
You folks have short memories if you think L.E. can be depended on in a school shooting.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Yes sir] #7620952
07/06/22 08:51 PM
07/06/22 08:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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Catch22  Offline
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OH
Originally Posted by Yes sir
It's all about protecting the kids. And seriously some believe it.....I even saw a post were someone believed Gates was buying land in ND for the kids in Africa also.

Yep, good grief!!


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: danny clifton] #7620955
07/06/22 08:54 PM
07/06/22 08:54 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
You folks have short memories if you think L.E. can be depended on in a school shooting.

It's not that we don't know that, but in the schools, what else is there with a better chance? You suggesting we leave it to the teachers?


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620966
07/06/22 09:26 PM
07/06/22 09:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,879
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
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Posts: 29,879
williamsburg ks
teachers and students. who ever wants to be armed. shall not be infringed


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7620967
07/06/22 09:31 PM
07/06/22 09:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 16,376
Iowa
~ADC~ Offline
The Count
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Iowa
You all paint with awfully broad brushes. We have a lot of small public schools around here that are very conservative. They aren't all bad. It would be the same as me saying all home-schooled kids are weird and awkwardly anti-social, just because that is what I see around here. They may be normal other places.

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: danny clifton] #7620970
07/06/22 09:34 PM
07/06/22 09:34 PM
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Posts: 2,462
Oregon
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H2ORat Offline
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Oregon
Originally Posted by danny clifton
Internet and social media doesnt have them playing real looking games where they steal cars, pick up hookers, murder and burn. for hours on end

no -- social media is much worse than that.

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: danny clifton] #7620972
07/06/22 09:37 PM
07/06/22 09:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
teachers and students. who ever wants to be armed. shall not be infringed

Well, we know that most teachers hate guns so, how are they a better shot at protecting kids then cops?


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621011
07/06/22 10:36 PM
07/06/22 10:36 PM
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Posts: 17,648
Rodney,Ohio
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Rodney,Ohio
This is more of a resolution than a policy since they cant directly implement it. This will be up to the school board to decide, so there will be showdowns between the board and the teachers unions. Believe it or not, sometimes school boards can get things through the unions dont like, even in deep blue counties.

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621046
07/06/22 11:26 PM
07/06/22 11:26 PM
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Asheville, NC
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charles Offline
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Probably means more money for teachers. Many unions are not logical. I tried to sell a group health policy to a cigarette manufacturer. Non union management had one policy, and union employees had another. You wouldn’t believe how convoluted the union coverage was. They traded away many perks for illogical coverages. I remember their lifetime benefit was only $250k. They had 100% coverage for breast reductions for machine operators.

I worked for the largest insurer in the land. Underwriters laughed at my bid request. Nobody except the union’s current insurer had any experience with expected claims.

The union shot themselves in the foot when they traded away benefits.

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621100
07/07/22 05:31 AM
07/07/22 05:31 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,879
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
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williamsburg ks
Catch22 , why wasn't school murder a fun game to play 50 years ago? dont need most teachers or students either one to have a shotgun in their vehicle. one or two is enough. locking doors and making gun free zones is like pour gas on a house fire


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621102
07/07/22 05:34 AM
07/07/22 05:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,879
williamsburg ks
D
danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
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williamsburg ks
There was a whole police force in Uvalde refusing to act or let anybody else react. Police presence aint working. Armed teachers and students DID work


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621103
07/07/22 05:40 AM
07/07/22 05:40 AM
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Posts: 16,600
Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30 Offline
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Point is someone in the school should be armed. Danny, not many school boards are going to allow armed students and you know it. Some would allow armed teachers. More would allow armed cops... or rent-a-cops, veterans, etc. From reading the original article, it sounds as though the union is willing to sacrifice the safety of the students so that a few minorities won't feel harassed by there being a police presence in the school.

If a school doesn't want a police presence, why not hire a couple combat veterans to act as plain clothes security?


~~Proud Ultra MAGA~~
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621109
07/07/22 06:03 AM
07/07/22 06:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,879
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
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williamsburg ks
Its not up to the school board. people have a RIGHT to be armed


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621110
07/07/22 06:03 AM
07/07/22 06:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
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williamsburg ks
quit asking permission from people you dont even know


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621112
07/07/22 06:09 AM
07/07/22 06:09 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 16,600
Oakland, MS
yotetrapper30 Offline
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Oakland, MS
I get what you're saying. But I wouldn't want to be the 17 year old kid who had a shotgun on his back seat that had a liberal teacher walk by and see it. You know he would be expelled, likely arrested. The SCOTUS may well find it unconstitutional, but who has the kind of money to take a case all the way up to the SCOTUS?


~~Proud Ultra MAGA~~
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621113
07/07/22 06:09 AM
07/07/22 06:09 AM
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Posts: 29,879
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
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williamsburg ks
If some talking head on tv bureaucrat wants to claim everyday honest people owning firearms is the reason schools are being shot up WHY WHY WHY WHY would you ask that idiots permission to do anything????????????????????????????????????????


P.S. if the kid aint smart enough to keep his gun out of sight he aint smart enough that mom and dad ought to let him have it

Last edited by danny clifton; 07/07/22 06:32 AM.

Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621136
07/07/22 07:25 AM
07/07/22 07:25 AM
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Sandhills Nebraska
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Gary Benson Offline
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Sandhills Nebraska
Unions have ways of forcing union members to vote the way the union wants them to vote.


Life ain't supposed to be easy.
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621138
07/07/22 07:29 AM
07/07/22 07:29 AM
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Sandhills Nebraska
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Gary Benson Offline
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TV shows and movies teach kids how to be killers along with video games and social media.


Life ain't supposed to be easy.
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Gary Benson] #7621194
07/07/22 09:06 AM
07/07/22 09:06 AM
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Indiana
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Providence Farm Offline
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Indiana
Originally Posted by Gary Benson
Unions have ways of forcing union members to vote the way the union wants them to vote.



No one holds a gun to their head to "make" them vote a certain way. The members are just dumb enough to listens to them. At least they used to be. I used to get a lot of hate for voting conservative. There are still a few vote blue no matter what guys at but few, and most ignore the union recommended people they recommend voting for.

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621229
07/07/22 09:53 AM
07/07/22 09:53 AM
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williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
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williamsburg ks
Unions are nothing but organized crime. Peed away all the pension money and now big d is bailing them out. There aint nothing good about gangster run unions


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621230
07/07/22 09:53 AM
07/07/22 09:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,879
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
"Grumpy Old Man"
danny clifton  Online Content
"Grumpy Old Man"
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williamsburg ks
PS they are ALL run by gangsters every last one


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: danny clifton] #7621259
07/07/22 10:49 AM
07/07/22 10:49 AM
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Posts: 16,951
OH
Catch22 Offline
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OH
Originally Posted by danny clifton
Catch22 , why wasn't school murder a fun game to play 50 years ago? dont need most teachers or students either one to have a shotgun in their vehicle. one or two is enough. locking doors and making gun free zones is like pour gas on a house fire

Danny, I agree with everything you have said. But, in the times we're in what else can be done. I think having cops in schools is ridiculous but what else is there? We used to take guns to school, I was even ask to bring guns into the school to show teachers and once to give a presentation on percussion ML's. Walked right through the front door, no problem.

All the kids who hunted and trapped had guns visible on a gun rack in their trucks. To me it's proof that it's the environment these kids are raised in now, that's the problem. We didn't have school shootings back then and we had plenty of guns.


I wonder if tap dancers walk into a room, look at the floor, and think, I'd tap that. I wonder about things.....
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621275
07/07/22 11:04 AM
07/07/22 11:04 AM
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Marty Offline OP
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Check this out:

Federal bailout of hundreds of union pension plans passed as part of Democrats' $1.9 trillion American Rescue Plan Act.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...mp;cvid=84d43c11839f4cd5a3f5a233cc4a3dcc


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'Honey Badger Militia'
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Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: danny clifton] #7621288
07/07/22 11:23 AM
07/07/22 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by danny clifton
P.S. there were no school shootings

Back when I was in school we might have had some disagreements that ended up in a fist fight and some cut lips or black eyes, but killing someone you didn't like with a gun or even a knife was never on the table.

Some of us had gun racks in the back of our beat up pickups with a shotgun or rifle because it was grouse, pheasant, duck, or deer season. We were going hunting after school.

Just about all of my friends carried jack knives in their pockets. That was standard procedure back then.

Our sportsman's club sponsors 4 different schools in trap shooting through our charitable gambling. We feel this is a step in the right direction when it comes to safety, ownership, and integrity regarding firearms. We've been doing this for about 5 years now. There has never been any accidents in that time. The interest among the students has been growing every year.


We are told not to judge all Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but are told to judge all gunowners by the actions of a few.
Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621398
07/07/22 02:20 PM
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You can argue teachers are not all behind this, but they're all enablers in it via the union and complying.

Same as our southern border patrol. Chaps my hide to see them on the news every single night saying how bad it is, how its destroying our country but the very next day those same people are out there putting these illegals on busses and planes for this administration.

I'd have quit long ago, telling Biden and company to come babysit for themselves!!!

Re: largest teacher union votes to end school policing [Re: Marty] #7621571
07/07/22 08:03 PM
07/07/22 08:03 PM
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Quote

Some of us had gun racks in the back of our beat up pickups with a shotgun or rifle because it was grouse, pheasant, duck, or deer season. We were going hunting after school.

Just about all of my friends carried jack knives in their pockets. That was standard procedure back then.


Had plenty of nuts in those days. Even nuts know that when somebody will likely shoot back and probably more than one somebody, shooting up a school is a real bad idea.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
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