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Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Marty] #7625597
07/13/22 11:04 AM
07/13/22 11:04 AM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,683
Newark, Ohio 83 years
Actor Offline
trapper
Actor  Offline
trapper

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,683
Newark, Ohio 83 years
It sure didn't take the situation to end once the Border Patrol got there... which tells me, as and ex-LEO, that main fault lies in the leadership of local LEO, or should I say the LACK OF LEADERSHIP!

Garry-


“Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.”

Have been trapping 77 years…
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: 8117 Steve R] #7625630
07/13/22 11:58 AM
07/13/22 11:58 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,530
Fingerlakes New York
robert.d12 Offline
trapper
robert.d12  Offline
trapper

Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,530
Fingerlakes New York
Originally Posted by 8117 Steve R
Priority should be given to military veterans when filling law enforcement positions. I think the response would have been different if some of these guys were Marines.


Priority is given to vets here


The beauty of the second amendment is it wont be needed until they try to take it. -Thomas Jefferson
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Kart29] #7625650
07/13/22 12:35 PM
07/13/22 12:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 292
SE Iowa
S
seiowatrapper Offline
trapper
seiowatrapper  Offline
trapper
S

Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 292
SE Iowa
Originally Posted by Kart29
I understand the need to make a banzai attack in this situation and the critical need for immediate action. But I also understand the need to have a plan of attack that has some possibility of a positive outcome. This is definitely a situation worth sacrificing your life in. But it makes no sense to run into a hail of bullets with zero hope of improving the situation in any way.

Are there building codes that require at least two means of egress for all classrooms? I would think so. Just going through the doorway seems like guaranteed failure. But if that could be combined with a coordinated attack through a window on the opposing side of the room, there would be some possibility of success.

Was tear gas, smoke, or a flash-bang available anywhere? How about a battering ram to break a hole in the block wall? Could the room be accessed by the ceiling via an adjoining classroom?

How would you attack a man armed with a rifle inside a room with only one doorway and an outward swinging door?


This was a terrible, horrible response and it looks even worse in retrospect. But I definitely agree with your sentiment that a hasty, uncoordinated response, no matter how heroic it might seem, is also not the answer. What happened here was that command failed, and failed terribly. It was difficult to hear the audio, but some of the conversation was in regards to concerns about "crossfire", etc. This is just one possibility that would make an uncoordinated response even worse...the good guys shooting the other good guys, etc.

I do not agree that the officers in the hallway were cowards, they were poorly led. At approximately the 45 minute mark there must have been an order to approach the room...because about a dozen officers promptly did so in a formation of sorts. Then, for reasons that aren't clear to me yet, they waited there for another 15-20 minutes before breeching the door and killing the shooter. If they were straight up cowards, they wouldn't have responded to the order to approach the classroom...and they wouldn't have then later stormed the door, etc.

Command should be held accountable for the delays, not necessarily those under command. Because I am pretty sure the same people calling the officers cowards now would also criticize other officers for charging in and shooting additional kids, etc, in a banzai approach. That this effort was so flawed deserves serious scrutiny and review...but I think it is important to be accurate in our critiques from thousands of miles away and in a situation that way fewer than 1% of us will ever find ourselves in in our lifetime.

Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Kart29] #7625659
07/13/22 12:49 PM
07/13/22 12:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,892
new york
M
mike mason Offline
trapper
mike mason  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,892
new york
Originally Posted by Kart29
I understand the need to make a banzai attack in this situation and the critical need for immediate action. But I also understand the need to have a plan of attack that has some possibility of a positive outcome. This is definitely a situation worth sacrificing your life in. But it makes no sense to run into a hail of bullets with zero hope of improving the situation in any way.

Are there building codes that require at least two means of egress for all classrooms? I would think so. Just going through the doorway seems like guaranteed failure. But if that could be combined with a coordinated attack through a window on the opposing side of the room, there would be some possibility of success.

Was tear gas, smoke, or a flash-bang available anywhere? How about a battering ram to break a hole in the block wall? Could the room be accessed by the ceiling via an adjoining classroom?

How would you attack a man armed with a rifle inside a room with only one doorway and an outward swinging door?

If their child was in that room, I guarantee they would have charged in instead of scratching their behinds and playing with the cell phone!

Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Marty] #7625673
07/13/22 01:26 PM
07/13/22 01:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 308
Iowa
R
riverratdm Offline
trapper
riverratdm  Offline
trapper
R

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 308
Iowa
Looks like a fine time to sanitize my hands.......

Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Marty] #7625694
07/13/22 01:50 PM
07/13/22 01:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 464
Minnesota
M
Muskeg Offline
trapper
Muskeg  Offline
trapper
M

Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 464
Minnesota
Pathetic

Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Marty] #7625753
07/13/22 03:51 PM
07/13/22 03:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,914
North East Kansas
Marty Offline OP
trapper
Marty  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,914
North East Kansas
Read this elsewhere, worth repeating:

The majority of law enforcement officers in this country are cowards and scum who aren’t fit to do the job. Between low level corruption and cowardice in law enforcement and government employment in general there needs to be a major overhaul in the way things are done and the qualifications required to do these jobs.


E
'Honey Badger Militia'
Sleep, the anti woke adote.
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Kart29] #7625782
07/13/22 04:39 PM
07/13/22 04:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,363
Custer Co, Idaho
S
sneaky Offline
trapper
sneaky  Offline
trapper
S

Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,363
Custer Co, Idaho
Originally Posted by Kart29
I understand the need to make a banzai attack in this situation and the critical need for immediate action. But I also understand the need to have a plan of attack that has some possibility of a positive outcome. This is definitely a situation worth sacrificing your life in. But it makes no sense to run into a hail of bullets with zero hope of improving the situation in any way.

Are there building codes that require at least two means of egress for all classrooms? I would think so. Just going through the doorway seems like guaranteed failure. But if that could be combined with a coordinated attack through a window on the opposing side of the room, there would be some possibility of success.

Was tear gas, smoke, or a flash-bang available anywhere? How about a battering ram to break a hole in the block wall? Could the room be accessed by the ceiling via an adjoining classroom?

How would you attack a man armed with a rifle inside a room with only one doorway and an outward swinging door?

You stack at least four deep, last man taps the man ahead of him on the shoulder to signal ready and so on down the line. Once the first man feels the tap it's go time. He either crosses or button hooks inside the door, second man alternates and they clear corners and overhead. Rest of the men flood the room. Shooter can only engage one at a time. Numbers win. They are cowards and should be stripped of their badges and pensions publicly.

Last edited by sneaky; 07/13/22 04:39 PM.

Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Marty] #7625783
07/13/22 04:41 PM
07/13/22 04:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,363
Custer Co, Idaho
S
sneaky Offline
trapper
sneaky  Offline
trapper
S

Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,363
Custer Co, Idaho
Oh, command was held accountable. By being elected to the city council.


Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Marty] #7625791
07/13/22 04:58 PM
07/13/22 04:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,914
North East Kansas
Marty Offline OP
trapper
Marty  Offline OP
trapper

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,914
North East Kansas
striped publicly, tarred and feathered....

Imagine what our nations enemies think when they see this?


E
'Honey Badger Militia'
Sleep, the anti woke adote.
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Marty] #7625823
07/13/22 06:09 PM
07/13/22 06:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,150
Tennessee
Scuba1 Offline
"color blind Kraut"
Scuba1  Offline
"color blind Kraut"

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 16,150
Tennessee
If it had been one of my grand kids in that building i would have shot those useless cops to get to that monster if they tried to stop me


Let's go Brandon

"Shall not comply" with morons who don't understand "shall not infringe."
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Guss] #7625835
07/13/22 06:28 PM
07/13/22 06:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,152
S. Illinois
C
Chuckles84 Offline
trapper
Chuckles84  Offline
trapper
C

Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,152
S. Illinois
Originally Posted by Guss
If your afraid to get shot or killed you should NOT BE A POLICE OFFICER.

X1000


Your entitled to oxygen. Everything else is earned.
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Swamp Wolf] #7625838
07/13/22 06:33 PM
07/13/22 06:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 17,456
Wheaton Ks
L
lee steinmeyer Offline
trapper
lee steinmeyer  Offline
trapper
L

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 17,456
Wheaton Ks
Originally Posted by Swamp Wolf
From a veteran LE officer's viewpoint: that was BAD! Their inaction to go directly to the shooter is in conflict with the active shooter training that everyone of them (most likely) has had.

Career ending event for them.


We can only hope your right about a career ending event! How could they even face the citizens after that! They were dealing with a kid with a gun, wowzer. Anyone could have come up with a plan of attact in five minutes, time was of the essence. Disgraceful!


YOU CAN IGNORE REALITY, BUT YOU CANNOT IGNORE THE CONSEQUENCES OF IGNORING REALITY.

http://www.lptraplinesupply.com
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Marty] #7625854
07/13/22 06:48 PM
07/13/22 06:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,912
Idaho Falls, ID
G
Grandpa Trapper Offline
trapper
Grandpa Trapper  Offline
trapper
G

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,912
Idaho Falls, ID
But the one cop had time to sanitize his hands so he wouldn’t have any germs on them. Sickening scene.

Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Guss] #7625895
07/13/22 07:41 PM
07/13/22 07:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,170
ny
U
upstateNY Offline
trapper
upstateNY  Offline
trapper
U

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,170
ny
Originally Posted by Guss
If your afraid to get shot or killed you should NOT BE A POLICE OFFICER.

If you wouldn't chance your life to save the lives of them kids,(weather your a cop or not),your not a man,,,your a gutless POS.


the wheels of the gods turn very slowly
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Marty] #7625899
07/13/22 07:49 PM
07/13/22 07:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 381
Vernal, Utah, USA
Dan Barnhurst Offline
trapper
Dan Barnhurst  Offline
trapper

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 381
Vernal, Utah, USA
Turns my stomach. I've been retired 6 years (conservation officer). But, this goes against all the yearly multiagency active shooter training I had prior to my retirement. We were trained to maximize efficiency in finding and neutralizing the shooter(s) as quickly as possible. This is disgraceful. Kid's died because of the failure of all of those officers to take quick decisive action. Heads should roll on this one!


Sneak the pan under his paw!
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: seiowatrapper] #7625901
07/13/22 07:52 PM
07/13/22 07:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 10,468
Iowa
T
trapdog1 Offline
trapper
trapdog1  Offline
trapper
T

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 10,468
Iowa
Originally Posted by seiowatrapper
Originally Posted by Kart29
I understand the need to make a banzai attack in this situation and the critical need for immediate action. But I also understand the need to have a plan of attack that has some possibility of a positive outcome. This is definitely a situation worth sacrificing your life in. But it makes no sense to run into a hail of bullets with zero hope of improving the situation in any way.

Are there building codes that require at least two means of egress for all classrooms? I would think so. Just going through the doorway seems like guaranteed failure. But if that could be combined with a coordinated attack through a window on the opposing side of the room, there would be some possibility of success.

Was tear gas, smoke, or a flash-bang available anywhere? How about a battering ram to break a hole in the block wall? Could the room be accessed by the ceiling via an adjoining classroom?

How would you attack a man armed with a rifle inside a room with only one doorway and an outward swinging door?


This was a terrible, horrible response and it looks even worse in retrospect. But I definitely agree with your sentiment that a hasty, uncoordinated response, no matter how heroic it might seem, is also not the answer. What happened here was that command failed, and failed terribly. It was difficult to hear the audio, but some of the conversation was in regards to concerns about "crossfire", etc. This is just one possibility that would make an uncoordinated response even worse...the good guys shooting the other good guys, etc.

I do not agree that the officers in the hallway were cowards, they were poorly led. At approximately the 45 minute mark there must have been an order to approach the room...because about a dozen officers promptly did so in a formation of sorts. Then, for reasons that aren't clear to me yet, they waited there for another 15-20 minutes before breeching the door and killing the shooter. If they were straight up cowards, they wouldn't have responded to the order to approach the classroom...and they wouldn't have then later stormed the door, etc.

Command should be held accountable for the delays, not necessarily those under command. Because I am pretty sure the same people calling the officers cowards now would also criticize other officers for charging in and shooting additional kids, etc, in a banzai approach. That this effort was so flawed deserves serious scrutiny and review...but I think it is important to be accurate in our critiques from thousands of miles away and in a situation that way fewer than 1% of us will ever find ourselves in in our lifetime.

So everyone just stood around for an hour. Unacceptable for all of them, not just those supposedly in command.

Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Marty] #7626024
07/13/22 10:14 PM
07/13/22 10:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,475
WI>>>MN >>>WI
T-Rex Offline
trapper
T-Rex  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,475
WI>>>MN >>>WI
There are kids in there armed only with crayons.

i could think of hundreds of ways 19 armed men could have overcome one. And I ain't even some rebel county sheriff.

In the end one man manned up. It cost him a bullet hole in his hat....probably a perfect spot to place feather


Man who mistake shillelagh for fairy wand; see pixie dust, also.
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: Marty] #7626033
07/13/22 10:25 PM
07/13/22 10:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,475
WI>>>MN >>>WI
T-Rex Offline
trapper
T-Rex  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,475
WI>>>MN >>>WI
In Minnesota three subordinate cops were charged convicted and sentenced for failing to help a freaked out drug craized George Floyd.

I would consider that precedent for a hallway full of chicken-poo Texans.


Man who mistake shillelagh for fairy wand; see pixie dust, also.
Re: Uvalde hallway video. [Re: seiowatrapper] #7626039
07/13/22 10:33 PM
07/13/22 10:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,548
Rodney,Ohio
SNIPERBBB Offline
trapper
SNIPERBBB  Offline
trapper

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,548
Rodney,Ohio
Originally Posted by seiowatrapper


I do not agree that the officers in the hallway were cowards, they were poorly led. At approximately the 45 minute mark there must have been an order to approach the room...because about a dozen officers promptly did so in a formation of sorts. Then, for reasons that aren't clear to me yet, they waited there for another 15-20 minutes before breeching the door and killing the shooter. If they were straight up cowards, they wouldn't have responded to the order to approach the classroom...and they wouldn't have then later stormed the door, etc.

.



Following orders doesnt take courage. Just ask anyone at the Nuremberg trials, " I was only following orders". Getting your CYA covered before taking action is a bit cowardly. Going into a situation where you know you can get hurt/killed does take some courage orders or no orders Obviously with the spotlight on the police these days, you can understand the reticence of the individuals involved to take the initiative.

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