If you willfully and knowingly violate the laws of man (specifically game and fish law) are you committing a sin in the eyes of God?

I've read a few related verses in Romans and have my interpretation.

Your opinions?

“Render unto Caesar……”

I have wondered this in the past. Mostly when the world was going to end in a Y2K panic.

If I kill a deer out of season because my family is hungry, I am guilty of breaking mans law even if no one ever knows what I've done. My theory, I have sinned against God's law and He saw me.

In my opinion if the law is evil. Then natural law is the higher power.
Fortunately the highest power is God, and in our country it is the constitution, under God
We have plenty of laws that are unconstitutional and against the natural laws we Have from our Creator.
If the law is good, if it's constitutional. And especially if it does not break God's law.
Then we should comply.
Example. If it were illegal to kill something for substance in the case of survival. I world harvest an animal to service. There are plenty of gray aria laws that are not just .
Example in Wyoming you can't use game animal parts for bait. The reasoning is because during the fur boom of the 70-80s there were alot of peaple killing antelope and deer for baiting coyotes.
This was an illegal act. So the honest guy suffers and can't use game animal remains or use a raid killed deer for bait. Were is the justice. And this sort of throws the want and waste law out the window when it comes to efficiency and wise use.

The only sin I could see here is your lack of faith that God would provide for you.

Me speeding down the highway because my heart says screw the government is much different than speeding because I want to save someone from bleeding out. Even man knows the difference in that situation, surely God does too.

Unjust/ immoral / unethical laws?
No.

I put ethics above laws, and God above gov

Define "unjust law".

Who makes that decision?

Not a wildlife law, but if the speed limit is 55mph and you intentionally drive 60...what about that?

If man was just we would not need man's law. Or God's law. If there was no sin there would be no need for laws.
Man transgresses. Therefore we have laws. but man's law is not always just.
If it were then we would be God, then we would not need law.

I agree with this ^^^^

But, does man determine what's a just law for him and his fellow man to follow?

Who made the creature.
God or Caesar?

I think God is more concerned with the character of your heart and your relationship with Him than he is with the speed at which you drive

I agree Swamp we do the best we can.

Plato took his most original idea to be that law should combine persuasion with compulsion. In order to persuade citizens to follow the legal code, every law has a prelude that offers reasons why it is in one's interest to obey.

The Rule of Law has its origins in ancient Greece and, more specifically, in the philosophy of Aristotle. In his work titled Politics, Aristotle raised the question of whether it is better to be ruled by the best leader or the best laws.

Just food for thought. But remember this was a time when God was silent.

So...... what exactly belongs to Caeser?

Without “Caesar” will the prophecy be fulfilled? Would we be making our way to a cashless society on our own following God’s law?

Me.
For me.
And me alone.

They say no man is an island.
But I am.

Amen

Good point hobby

Regarding game laws my opinion is if you are cheating then you are stealing, at least opportunity, from everyone else.

Proverbs 6:30-31 (KJV) Men do not despise a thief, if he steal To satisfy his soul when he is hungry; But if he be found, he shall restore sevenfold; He shall give all the substance of his house.

I like Ceasars

To live by the law = death

To be justified by the law is to be fallen from grace.
Jesus lived by the law perfectly and we have eternal life only though that perfect fulfillment oft the law.
Not man's law of course.
But the law of God.

Didn't somebody write a story about some guys taking venison from Sherwood Forest or robbing the rich to give to the poor or something ? Maybe they was living by a law, but whose law ?

And the modern version would be men in tights.

Robin Hood didn't steal from the rich, he stole illegally-taken taxes from the government coffers and returned the money to the people.

What is commitment to morality over legality?

Did God provide by allowing me to kill a deer or should I wait for someone to bring ma a basket of food?

Old Pup: Today you might get a basket of food but maybe tomorrow get cut back to a ration of rice.

If it is not God's law also then no.

https://blogs.bcm.edu/2019/12/20/how-should-we-balance-morality-and-the-law/

Interesting read but sorry no cliff notes!

Swamp, throw other states and Fed. laws in with this question and it gets crazy.

Then coondagger2, what is the character of a man's heart that intentionally disobeys man's law? Even simple speed limit laws? Is that man's conscious clear? Is his heart truly pure in character?

Then what is it then BruceT? Is it just something we can all just shrug off as unimportant in God's eyes? Not meaning anything when we're standing at the gates?

Is a man's heart pure that continuously violates man's law? Is the penalty for this intentional law breaking only penalized in man's court?

I've got a good friend who is truly addicted to deer hunting. He is a professing believer, and I believe he is saved. The problem is deer hunting has become an idol in his life. Game laws are for other people to follow. He loves to hunt on and over the line, but will call the GW on you in a heartbeat for the same thing. I've talked with him about this on several occasions. He can't see that this hurts his witness to non-believers. I've put this scenario to him a couple of times since it has happened to him already. If you get busted by the GW for killing an illegal deer, does it it help or hurt your testimony if you tried to witness to him while he's writing the ticket?

I've always looked at it this way too.

That would be between you and Him, however my personal belief is it would depend on what you were praying for.

Exactly! You have hit on what I'm wanting to learn more about.

And in addition to his potentially tarnished testimony (in the eyes of those that see this guy's behavior), what is the finality of his behavior?

Here we go with the law following to be sinless. lol

Imagine my surprise when I became a law abiding citizen only to realize my sin wasn’t just willful disobedience of the law but disobedience to His voice and the things He asked of me where man’s law was absent.

When we live by our own code which has been instilled into us by the time we are only 3 or 4 yrs old. Then if our parents are cannibals then we have been taught eating our neighbor is ok and our conscience does not say its wrong. Its when we are struck down on the road, so to speak and those 10 commandments cut us and gives us a new outlook upward and hopefully a new birth. We have a new deputy in town as watchmen over our soul and the new man no longer wants to eat his neighbor.

It seems to me the government was kind of arbitrary on who they decided to let meet and who not during the COVID lockdown. Churches weren't allowed while some groups of protestors were. That's a perfect example of when to tell the government to stuff it.

Although if you were feasting on your neighbor surely you would keep him fed and healthy up until, essentially following the law.

Doesn’t actually say God’s punishment. One would expect to be punished for breaking man’s law.

Where are the folks that would tell us what it is supposed to say by not saying it?

I’ve read that verse and struggle with this too. No great input as I’ve been wrestling with it lately about how that applies. We know what to do when the law conflicts with loving God or loving your neighbor, but I’m not sure how to reconcile fully.

An example for me that applies to our game laws even though I’m not much of an outlaw. I can legally kill 12 deer on a 5 acre property or smaller. But if I were to take one buck off of 3 properties I would be illegal. From a management standpoint it doesn’t make sense to me, but I also realize that the wardens could never keep up with or enforce anything if it was broken down to the individual level.

I guess I normally look at the intent of the law and work off of that more than anything.

So if your government was exterminating Jews and it was the law for you to turn them in and you don't turn one over to them but hide him, then wouldn't that be pleasing to God ?
How did Haman's grand plan work for him?

During WWll Japanese, Italian and German citizens were obeying their government.

I found a pretty good explanation of Romans 13:1-2

https://thebiblesays.com/commentary/rom/rom-13/romans-131-2/

Wasn’t there a trial of some guy who refused to buy a hunting license? I’ll have to find it. They found him not guilty. He lived off the grid and hunted only out of necessity to feed himself . His every answer to questioning was “I am a living man”

Look up Romans 13 1&2 KJV this may answer some questions.

My bad I was typing y'all was posting .

Back years ago I got hauled into the sheriffs office one night for coon hunting on my own land with no license. The law was I had to live on the property in order for me to hunt on it without a license. Where I was hunting was not adjoined to where I lived. They took me to sheriffs office because my billfold was stolen three days earlier and I had no ID. When we got there the sheriff told them I had filed a burglary report a couple days ago. So they gave me a ticket and in the process I decided I wasn't paying it even tho it was the law that I couldn't hunt on my own land. In those days I had more money than sense so I went to court. After sitting in court 2 hours looking at the GW eye to eye, then my turn came up and the DA said case dismissed.

Swamp
You posted vses 1-2 and you say I've read a few related verses.
It easy to take things out of context without the whole picture. Go on reading.
Vs 3 not a teror to good works, but to the evil.
Paul was saying that the ordinance was for good works not evil.
( wilt though be afraid of the power?) God does not give us the spirit of fear. )
Sometimes you have make a judgment call. If someone intentionally breaks a law because they just disagree or it's for personal gain, not meaning self preservation. Then they are in the wrong.
( do that wich is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same.) So in Wyoming it is illegal to pick up a road killed deer.even if you hit it. But you can be ticketed for not taking the portion of a dear you harvested acording to the code. You asked for an example of an unjust law.
This is one of many. I think it's an evil discusting waist to forse peaple to leave edible portions of road killed deer to rot . What's just about that law.

I sincerely hope that God did not give us this government. Yikes..

YES

As far as game laws go, if you can show one that violates any of God's commands, I would say it would be null and void for a believer. Just because I want to kill 1 buck too many, or keep 2 bass over the limit, isn't a reason to violate the laws.

That's not a crime. It's a moving violation.

GW's should be afforded more discretion.

Speeding is a violation of a law code.

Yes....I agree. That's what I've been digging into this more....see one of my posts above where I posted a link...

Interesting angle in this article, but there is no mention of how God looks at man not following man's law.

Makes me wonder what would happen of we all did this?

Does a man with a conscious have the same feeling when he knowingly violates the laws of man as he does when he knowingly sins?

There would be no revenue to pay you?

No

Please elaborate as I assume your speaking for yourself.

bucknbears,

Pay me for what?

Yes, I am, speaking of myself,..and hopefully more,..if I violate man's law,..what real jurisprudence should I stand on in confliction with Gods law ?

That is why I say GW's should have more discretion,..in at least determination of actual providence.
I'l lrelate a story,. my father and friends hunted for years up around the nashwauk area in the mid fifties, dad shot a good size buck,.they hung the buck and went out for the next morning hunt . Returning ,they discovered the deer missing, subsequent inquire brought the local game warden into the situation ,.who offered that those that may be responsible ,..were factual in somewhat dire straights. Story ends ,..no problem.

No. When a Christian sins, a feeling of shame is a natural reaction. You know your actions were a sin against God, and feel shame that you did whatever you did. I really don't think God will send me to hades for driving 5 miles over speed limit.

If I'm out hunting squirrel because my fridge has no food in it, and the limit is 6, but I shoot 8, and on the way home drop off 4 cleaned squirrels to the 85 year old widow lady down the street, I can promise you I will not be concerned over my immortal soul.

Maybe you are not looking close enough?

Romans 2
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


If what we perceive as legally right does not agree with our conscience we hear a small still voice. Until we either obey that voice or otherwise prove that voice wrong we are troubled. As I stated in earlier thread the conscience is not a standard. It only has what has been put into it at a young age. A group may teach that drinking tea or coffee is sin because of the caffeine and that is to them a law but has no affect on me. Their granddaddy Jonadab of the Rechabites may have commanded to drink no wine but that flies over my head. Now when that conflicts with my driving drunk and killing someone then "thou shall not kill" supersedes what I think and is a law. So am I going to follow man's commandment or God's commandment ?

Great post Angela!

Personally, shame is a good indication of what is a sin and what is not. Best example I can give is the Spirit leading me to provide relief for another and I don’t and the fist pump I experience when I tell the government to pound sand.

I once read a story in some magazine. It was about a Game Warden that was at a marsh a day before Thanksgiving morning. A few minutes before time to start he hears a shot. Everyone else hunting hears the shot too. The Warden waits at the most likely spot for the hunter to come out. In a few minutes here came a young boy about 14 out of the frosty marsh. The boy was cold and poorly clothed, but carrying a duck and had a big grin on his face. The Warden had to give him a ticket because he started too early. If the other hunters learned he hadn't ticketed him could put his job on the line. Well the Warden loaded the boy up and took him down the road to the shanty he lived in. Upon arriving the boys frail mother with a little one hanging to her dress tail came out on the porch. When the Warden saw the setting he had a sickening feeling come over him. Being the day Thanksgiving he knew that duck was going to be their meal. He told the lady what had happened and left. On the way back to town his mind was not at rest. He went to a store and bought a turkey and all the trimmings and took them back to the shanty. He told her that they had been given more food than he and his wife could eat and wanted to share with them. He also gave her enough cash to pay the fine.

Example where morals and laws collide !
Wish I knew the name of the author to give him credit.

But if your guardian angel can't speed to keep up then you're not protected

Judges 5

28 The mother of Sisera looked out at a window, and cried through the lattice, Why is his chariot so long in coming? why tarry the wheels of his chariots?

29 Her wise ladies answered her, yea, she returned answer to herself,

30 Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colours, a prey of divers colours of needlework, of divers colours of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?

31 So let all thine enemies perish, O Lord: but let them that love him be as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years.

I guess I'm being as clear as mud.....

If you INTENTIONALLY break the laws of man (you know you did and dont really care)...then how does God look upon you?

The speed limit is not a real good example.

I looking beyond someone just driving over the speed limit incidentally. The guy that violates the law in a care-free manner and obviously knows he's wrong...

I realize no one is going to Hades for speeding. But what kind of judgement is the law breaker with no care that he has done so gonna get?

If a man doesn't care about breaking man's law, then how is his heart right to follow God's law? I know this is all in a man's conscious, but I'm wondering how God views that.

Can a man go through life basically being a poacher or a criminal and not receive judgement from God for that? As long as violations don't cross with God's laws?

Should a poacher or criminal not even be concerned about the crimes he has committed if he ever repents and ask for forgivness for his sins?

This brings me back to the original question. Is a violation of man's laws a sin or anything to be concerned about in God's eyes?

No, I hate to break it to you, but none of our hearts are truly pure in character.

That's where Jesus comes into play.

God sent his Son to this Earth so that the Old Law was made New. No longer were the ceremonies and sacrifices necessary as they were in the Law of the Old Testament.

Jesus commended those that upheld the Law and He was very clear he did not come to do away with the Law. He came to fulfill it.

I definitely see where you are coming from, but I think it's a slippery slope. Remember when the Pharisees were so focused on the Law that they completely denied and ridiculed the presence and existence of the Messiah?

Let's not be like them.

Read Romans 10:4-13, Hebrews 10:1-7, Hebrews 9:10-14, Colossians 2:13-15.....there's some good stuff in there!

I you willingly and knowingly violate the laws of God, are you committing sin in the eyes of the law?

I knew a guy who had no license plate drivers license. He was extremely knowledgeable of the law .
I got called to jury duty and he was being tried for DUI. I didn't recognize him at first so I was continuing on in the jury selection. Then I realize I new the guy. He had cleaned our ductwork in our old home. So I new his story.
So I was dismissed from jury selection. I understand his wanting to live of off the radar. But what a pain it would be to constantly have the law breathing down your throat. Going against the grain so to speak. I never heard what happened in his trial.

Swamp
I read the link you posted. Good read

CD2,
I am very familiar with the above and I know none of our hearts are pure (I used that to try to clarify what I'm asking). See my above post from a few minutes ago....so I dont have to re-type it.

Foxpaw and Giant Sage,
I'm reading what your posting. Thanks.

There are a lot of stupid and even unconstitutional laws out there. My (admittedly somewhat simplistic) view is that God would not defend those laws.

Several of you guys are setting up scenarios that describe some sort of justification for violating man's laws. Yall seem to be dodging what I'm really asking......

Lets try this: if you took those 8 squirrels because you wanted to and didn't drop off any to anyone. You killed them simply because you could and have no care that it was illegal....how will God look upon you?

I'm learning more and more about how God looks upon a deceptive heart...

I don't think God would write that down as "Shot over the limit of squirrels"

I think he would write that down as "Greed"

I think what others are trying to say is that not always does going against the law of man go against the Law of God

Clearly our country disobeyed the government at the time, clearly we have been punished and blessed.

How did God see that?

The same as he does when you tell your kids about Santa Claus, with disgust.

I'm not implying God would record that as "over the limit of squirrels"....lol. But, using your word "greed"....how is God gonna judge that man for that?

I also believe that God's law most definitely overrides man's laws.

I'm asking about when man intentionally violates for his own self interests.....how does God view that?

Wow...this seems to be as difficult for everyone to understand as it is for me.

Is that as far as it goes?

He’s disgusted with our behavior period, it’s why He came here to give us a way out. That is after He basically started over the first time. lol

If you are concerned that you cheating on your taxes is going to keep you out of Heaven, don’t be.

Lol

My inquiry is not about me. It's just a thought I've had for some time.

I personally know a preacher and others that profess to be Christians that have a near total disregard for wildlife laws. I'm trying not to judge them. I'm wanting to know if I missed something that I ought to know about.

I think Hobbie had it right .
If you are partaking in the benefits of society. You should render to Ceasar what is Ceasars.
In doing so you are loving your neighbor. Which is like loving God.
I

Sometimes we seek answers to questions that no man can provide.

For those men (and women) that intentionally violate the laws of man as if they mean nothing and for no other reason other than their own selfishness or greediness.....may their conscious become their guide and God have mercy on them.

Didn't read all posts but the simple answer is, yes. What you read in Romans stands whether we agree with it or not. The scriptures point out that the only time we don't follow man's laws is when they try to make laws that violate God's law or standards.

From my limited research....I've interpreted that you are correct and I firmly believe this.

I'm thinking many of the wrong things we do have their consequences in the here and now and it goes no further. For those that do follow us for the born again believer at the Judgement Seat Of Christ the bad ones are burned up. If not born again then off to the Great White Throne Judgement. So many think it makes no difference so might as well be bad all the way. After all we preach good works won't get you into heaven.

Jacob lied to and stole from his brother, deceived his father, married two sisters and took on their slaves as his concubines, abused at least one of his wives, sowed enmity among his sons, and refused to defend his daughter against a rapist. He got paid back in kind many times. How would you feel if you worked for a pretty girl 7 yrs only to get the ugly one. We pull our sins behind us as with cart ropes and when things go downhill they catch up quickly for payback.

Don't forget
Took his brother buy the heel.

A good example is when Daniel was told not to pray to his God and opened the window and prayed anyway. And/or when the 3 Hebrew children got thrown in the furnace for refusing to bow to the kings image.

Adultery isnt against man’s law. Maybe it should be.

Is not Gods standard to Forgive those who trespass against us? Some people have made a living violating that standard.

My opinion on that would be... it depends. Do I go out and shoot 8 squirrels every day? Do I leave them lay in the woods, or take them home and eat them? If I go out hunting only once or twice a year and shoot 2 squirrels over the limit, take them home and eat them, I'm betting God would be absolutely fine with that. That's not greed.

In fact, I'd suspect (in a throw back to the post from earlier this week), that God would be more upset about a person that forbids others from harvesting the wildlife from their land. That could be considered greed.

Oh my! ^^^^


I got my question answered and learned about some unusual attitudes that some Tman members have.


I guess none of us really know what to expect if we make it to the gates.

Really, you don’t know?

We're all different HT.

Some seem to think that they can go thru life on this Earth doing pretty much as they please and ask forgiveness b4 they take their last breath and all is good.

I believe you should live your life EVERYDAY as sin-free as you can, be humble and thankful, constantly pray and ask forgiveness, and from the core of your heart accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior...believing that he died so that we may live.

Dang Bluejays raiding mourning doves / Robin nests in the yard.
Dang turkeys destroying my newly plant foodplots .
Dang Badgers digging up people's driveway.
Ad nauseam...

Thank you Lord for giving us humans the resources to do as we see fit.
;)pure n simple, it's dang near impossible to wake up, go anywhere and not break a law created by man.
Did I turn on my turn signal at that last gravel road while turning onto the next?
Forgive me Lord.

Gonna say, you seem to have become kinda self rightness lately SW.

Alot on here seem to think ir is all right to break a law as long astheyHAVE a good reason for doing it Kind of like giving the rest to someone else.

I have no idea why you would say that.

Even though I asked for opinions on what I realize is a complex question, I don't consider myself holier than thou.

If you would take the time to read this thread and what I was really inquiring about then maybe you would understand. But, I don't think you (and a few others that have replied to this thread) are really interested in my question....maybe because you don’t know or don’t want to know.

Many of the replies are about some off the wall scenario like your "failure to use your turn signal" example. SMH

Hmm, I guess I can't comprehend that?

So, Swampwolf, easy question. If you raised chickens and a coon was coming and killing them and season was not open,
What would YOU do?
Would you obey the law as man has written or partake in the Law God put forth about it??
Should be an easy answer.
God's law about man having dominion over all living creatures or man's law saying only during a special time frame.

Without spin, what would you do?

That’s a solid question Bucks.. It puts “mans” laws into perspective.