Does an animals fur turn prime because of weather, tempertures or the does the amount of daylight in a day getting less make the fur turn? If we have a mild winter will it effect when the fur is ready to take? Should one start taking Texas coon on November 1st or wait until later? Thanks, Wild Ed

It's daylight that controls it.

good answer, good answer..

ours I have noticed seems to be right around dec 1 give or take a week.

It is the amount of light coming into their eyes, from what I read. I did notice it seemed the coons out in the open farm land seemed to prime a week or so earlier than the ones in say a river bottom where they were protected more from cold winds??T.20

there was a great post about this over at predatormasters. I thought I saved it but I cant find it now.

I belive it is called photosynthesis; it has to do with the amount of daylight available and not the temperature. It is mother nature's safety this way. If the animals were forced to rely on just temperature - then they would be unprepared when the first cold snap happens.

Same thing that makes the leaves fall off the trees...amount and angle of sunlight.

ANd birds fly south, and other animals ready themselves for hibernation

Photosynthesis is the process in which plants use sunlight for energy.

i can't believe you all are doing this to this guy. lol

wait. you all are serious, makes sense

I like this discussion, it really gets me wondering. For instance, If you take a northern minnestoa fox, today, mid august, down to some rain forest reasearch lab on the equator and start limiting the amount of daylight entering its eyes, will it in fact prime-up? Lets say we limit it to about 7 hours a day, just like it would get in minnesota in december, how long till it primes?

Did mammels continue thier normal fur loss - fur gain cycle during the last ice age? When the continent cooled did animals adapt and keep thier winter coats for longer periods of time?

My gut tells me that more than just daylight is at work, intersting though.

I don't think we really know for sure. It has been and always will be a topic of debate.

Chris Dwyer, an Ohio wildlife biologist who manages furbearer projects. Specifically, reduced hours of daylight trigger the secretion of a hormone that causes hair follicles to grower longer, thicker fur.

"That's what makes them grow a heavy fur coat," agrees Haubert, who periodically assists wildlife biologists on furbearer research. "It's not the cold weather.

[quote=Whisker Down]I like this discussion, it really gets me wondering. For instance, If you take a northern minnestoa fox, today, mid august, down to some rain forest reasearch lab on the equator and start limiting the amount of daylight entering its eyes, will it in fact prime-up?

No, the equator gets the most sunlight of any place on earth, if you took it to souther tip of south america, than yes the fur would prime up

Same here. I say daylight/day is the biggest factor but its not the only one.

So if we lock uncle fester in a windowless room all day will he grow his hair back?

No, brownie, I'm saying the experiement would limit the amount of daylight, not nature. Like using light filters, dark rooms, or something like that. The experiment would try to artifically force a minnesota fox into primeness in a tropical enviroment by simply limiting the amount of light entering its eyes. Would it work? I'd like to read the results of something like that, maybe its already been done. Mark June would probibly know if this has been done.

Photosynthesis.....


LMFAO

Photosynthesis..... This is used by the Fox farmers to bring the females into heat earlier and get them to reproduce 2-3 weeks earlier. You introduce artificial light at intervals
earlier in the late winter, early spring. Now you get a complete grown pup in December. Thus an extra size is big money for the fur farmer.
My $.02.

It wasnt too many mating seasons was it?

Dairy farmers use long day lighting to trigger more intake and more milk but need to keep the non lactating cows out as they will not show a bump later. Goat and sheep breeders use light to manipulate estrus cycles. Cool weather is used many times to increase sperm fertility and that is why many seasonal breeding species in the temperate climates don't have successful conception during the early summer or warm falls.

Who is to say that the fox in MN has a totally different response hormonally to less day light than an Ocelot in Brazil.
Evolution is a complex proccess not just visiable things that we can phenotypically see.

Bryce

i BELIEVE THAT WOULD BE CALLED EVOLUTION, SURVIVAL OF THE FITEST. stupid caps lock.. anyways, either those animals adapted, either through evolution with the genetic traits of the survivors being passed down or the animals migrated to the climate for which they were suited.

I have caught Alaska beavers, which live in Glacially fed rivers, with a summer temp near 37- 40 degrees, and in october they are still blue, december, and they have primed up. So environment is not a factor in the primeness. However, the traits or genetic disposition for them to have a heavier coat even in summer has evolved, the primeness is still dependant on the light.

Around here it the Fish and Game Department.

It has seemed to me that some years the fur didnt prime as quickly when we had exceptionally warm weather. I have also noticed that a few very cold frosty nights seem to cause the fur to prime up nicely.
However there is no question that the process begins because of natures law.

It surprises me that we still have this discussion each year. The science is clear.

The amount of sunlight received by the pineal gland, through the eyes, controls the release or non-release of hormones from the endocrine system. It is these hormones that begin and run the process we call priming. When spring is on the way, in the northern hemisphere, the light increase causes the process to reverse and we see shedding in our dogs and furbearers. Temperature has nothing to do with it.

Yes, altering light under artificial conditions will cause earlier or later priming or estrus cyles in captive populations.

Diet can have an effect on the quality of the fur but that is different from the condition we call'prime'.

"It's the PHOTOPERIOD -- the amount of daylight occuring each day."

He nailed it. Spot on!

Yepper White 17, this ia an anual thing. White has this well written in short. You are 100% correct White 17.

Does anybody know how much daylight or lack of daylight is necessary before the pineal gland gets activated to begin priming process?

Jack; I suspect that it's a cumulative thing. In Idaho right now your daylight is shortening by about 1 minute per 24 hr period. At my house in Alaska it is much faster. Eventually we will be losing over 6 minutes per day of sunlight. Again, I suspect the effect adds up over time and is not an overnight thing. But you can see that in the northern latitudes we will get colder weather sooner than further south so nature provides a way (less light at a faster rate) to prepare the critters for winter.

Is the light going into the pineal gland effected by cloud cover, for example..Oct./Nov. nights which are overcast compared to long clear evenings...just a thought?

No hard evidence but logically one would suspect that a cloud cover MIGHT have some bearing. Remember, we're talking about the UV part of the light spectrum and clouds don't have much effect on that wavelength. Remember your mom was right about going to the beach and getting just as sunburned on a cloudy day ?? Same deal here.

Fur farmers have been doing it for years for both pelting and breeding purposes.There is now a small pellet type pill that can be injected under the skin in the neck area of say a mink or fox that has the same effect as the melitonin(?sp) that will bring the fur into prime a month sooner.By doing this it allows the fur farmer a larger time frame to pelt when you have a large operation.Inject some with the pellet to get a jump on the pelting season.

why do critters prime up sooner in higher elevations, and is it true that you can place un-prime hides in the freezer to "prime" them up before selling ?
thanks in advance

You bet I always pick up summer road kill and put it in the freezer! Primes it right up when the season rolls around!!

Only for possum,they never die.

PHOTOSYNTHESIS


LMFAO

ROTFALMAO I wish Fester was home to see that one

Gary, ain't you been following along? they don't. If fact, due to the curvature of the earth, at higher elevations the sun would rise earlier and set later. Therefore the animals would receive more light up there, hence they would prime later. It least that would be the case in order for the penial gland theory, as the sole determinate of primeness, to hold true. Right?

thats why im so confused

Yeah, no kidding. The thing you've really got to watch out for is that pesky light in your freezer. One time mine malfunctioned, it stayed on for days and days, of course I never knew it. I bet you can guess what happened; all my furs "unprimed" in there, gall-dern-it-anyway.

thats TERRIBLE !!! sorry to hear that
hope ya got that fixed

Well, it really was ok, ya see I run drags. Most of my critters run into lightless caves before I find them. Let me tell ya, a few days in those caves and they come out like super prime mutants. Foot long hair on coons and whooly-bugger foxes. I've got to put 'em on the wifes tanning bed for an hour just to skin 'em.

So you skin them and save the eyes as well as the pelt!!! novel thought. I wonder if the August road kills when put in there prime up if you take the bulb out? LOL

Bryce

Why do people trap in the mountains out west a month before the low lands?T.20

T.20 You see, a while back PETA had a super secret experiment going on. They where catching critters and doing things to their endocrine system, espically the penial gland. They were trying to prevent critters from producing prime fur in an effort to sabotage the fur industry. The experiment was a flop, in fact, and to PETA's horror, the animals starting priming early. PETA cancelled the experiment. They took all the now mutant early primers and drove them to the tops of mountains where noone would find them, even dropped a few by helicopter.

And thats why fur primes earlier in the mountains - I thought everyone knew about that.

Ah ha!T.20

I have opossum sun glasses for sale "the strap on kind" $9.99 / pr...well worth the money folks...limited supply

PM SENT!

all pms returned keep um coming

are these the same we were issued when joining SPOET ?

Ohbuyer, you never returned my PM! I want a case, whats shipping to 14034? Any pictures?

Careful guys, you've got to be sure their polarized sun glasses for possum. The wrong kind just makes their tail fuzzy.

gary not the same ones"they woudn't fit ya"

FFG check your pm's by clicking "my stuff" where the white envelope is flashing...stupid

whisker d..they are polarized...thanks

ohhhh ok then ,,,,, PM sent

Where can I get a couple thousand of these pellet pills,and the injection device?

Talk to a fur rancher.It's legal in Canada and would think it's approved by now in the U.S.

I think its mostly photoperiod, but weather has to have something to do with it. For example, at the MN state fair, they have a duck pond with all kinds of wild north american duck species, all of them in their full breeding plumage. This is in the last part of august. Any duck hunter knows fully feathered drakes are few and far between even in the end of september. My dad and I asked how they get them to be feathered out, and the guy that is in charge of the ducks said they keep them inside and adjust the amount of light each day to get them to molt and grow their breeding feathers.

What he did say was that the ducks don't grow much of a down layer though since its like 80 degrees in the shed the keep em in. Now if it was light alone wouldn't they grow a thick layer of down like the do in the fall.

Now I know these are ducks and not furbearers. Now think about this, I can't imagine a furbearer getting a super thick prime coat if you decreased their photoperiod and kept their environment at 90 degrees. I have no doubt the fur would change but I can't imagine they would have the same amount of underfur they would in the wild in january in MN. Now imagine that you give an animal say 20 hrs of light but steadily decreased the temperature to very cold, say 0 degrees. I would have to think that that animal would grow a denser coat.

Been said several times already, the only thing that starts and stops fur priming is the amount of light hitting the eye's, makes a special gland go to work.

Now all the other things have an effect on the type of fur the animal will grow, diet and genetics primarily the top sources.

Wish there was an oral pellet pill,could go around with 1000s of em at stategic locations,and catch prime fur from the start of the season.

So weather/temperature has absolutely zero to do with the growth of thick underfur? Or more fur in general? Both questions refer to complete indepedence from a change in photoperiod.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges sort of. If you take a coyote from montana and a coyote from california (be sure they're not both males considering one is from CA) and subject them to the same artificial light regimen. Each will develop the coat that their DNA dictates. That will be the same coat for the california yote (thin and scraggly) and a normal montana coat ( full and fluffy) You can take the coyote out of his country but you can take the country out of the coyote. At least not in one or two generations.

How about taking 2 montana yotes in june. Subject one to constant 20 degrees for 3 months and the other to normal montana summer temps. Both get identical sunlight. Then measure coat thickness. Will the two be identical?

The fur ain't going to change from one location to another, the animals already have the genes in them for what they get!!

Moving them to another latitude won't change thier coat. They will change when they prime up due to light on the eye's though

I agree. That's not what I was getting at. Say you do what you did, take yotes from 2 regions, and subject them to the same regimen of decreasing photoperiod, but this time gradually increase the temperature in the montana dog's pen at 100 degrees, and slowly lower the temp in the california dogs pen to 0 degrees. I assure you, despite identical photoperiods and genetic differences, the cali yote will have thicker fur than the montana yote.

Ask guys that breed whitetail deer. If they buy a buck from Texas and put in in their minnesota pen, it will make it come fall/winter, (you obviously couldn't do this move in the winter). The maximum or minimum fur density is not genetically determined.

Sorry I don't agree with that, density has to be genenticaly given as your only have so much space to grow in, and the animals don't get any more hair roots for density because of temperature, they are not there to get!!

Besides your not even using the same animal as an example! Which is the same for them as well, an animal only has so many hair roots no matter what species it is.

Density would be more regulated to genetics, diet and stress from other enviromental elements than anything.

It would take a matter of generations for either animal to show any change in hair coverage and root supply.

There is, its called melatonin and you can buy it at any drugstore without a prescription. Just put in your normal bait recipe and start pre-baiting before the season. If the pineal glands hormontal output of melatonin is the sole reason for primness then you should have every expectation that your foxes will be more prime on opening day. Good Luck.

I don't think putting certain chemical surprise's out in the field would be apperciated by most DWR's, one might just want to check the regulations before deciding to do your own fur priming LOL

There are a multitude of variables that impact the process I am sure. What is important is identifying the "trigger" or triggering event that starts proccess. It also must be something that needs to have a certain number of periods or events continuously so that the proccess once started continues. With many furbearers being nocturnal there has to be something other than just an optical sensation to daylight. There may be more involvement with different reflective ray types as the angle of the sun changes etc. The proccess may be more about the lack of something being produced than the increase of another substance produced. With hair being 99% protein it has something to do with protein synthasis and that is interesting as the diets of many fur bearers probably are much higher in carbs in the fall than protein, especially when compared to summer diets or when younger.

Bryce

I hope that hair roots are not a set number, since when I pull a hair out by a root, I really hope one grows back.

What you are referring to are follicles, a cellular structure in the dermis from which a hair grows.

More follicles can absolutely be formed in an individual. Do you know any old women or old men that have much more hair on their chins (women), or ears/eyebrows, I think most would. My grandma has some serious whiskers growing that I assure you were not there previously. Many older men have a great deal more hair growing around their ear openings than they did when they were 30. Did they have genetic mutations? I'm pretty sure not. More follicles are developed in existing dermis that were not previously there, and this is due to physilogic and hormonal changes occuring in the body. You bring me an Arizona desert coyote in july and I keep him in a pen in my yard in MN, as winter approaches that baby will grow fur like he never did before. Might it not be the same as MN resident yote fur, maybe not, but my education tells me it would be there.

Melatonin is not considered a drug. It is defined by the FDA, and is regulated as, a dietary supplement. Thats right, its legally a food and not a drug. You can put it in your bait just as you would any other food product.

Personally I don't advocate doing this. I don't believe that decreasing sunlight, and the resulting increase in melatonin output of the pineal gland is the sole determinate of hair growth, ie primeness. I believe it to be a multifactor process, decreasing light being just one of many necessary factors. If you are one on those people who do, however, by all means give it a try.

Amen

johnsD16, those follicles were already in place and were not placed there from diet, enviorment or habitat, and are not actuated by light, they are prompted to grow with as you stated with hormonal changes in people. Just not light!! All your examples given have roots established already some people they take off others they don't, it's a gene thing!! You can help them take off by manipulating the genes thur hormone intake and diet as well. Same with animals

How about when people go bald, you can transplant them to the head from behind the head or from a different part of the head and they will grow again. Mainly cause they are genetically predisposed to grow longer than where the baldness follicles were. You ever see bald people having transplants from the same bald area, it would fail in short order. The gene matrix is written already with that follicle.

Same with animals they are only given a certain amount of follicles to work with, one is not going to stimulate more follicle growth where there is none to grow.

Growing any more is only a result of stimulating exsisting ones already there. Which is the argument, how does one stimulate for a heavier density fur when it's not there to begin with!!

Your description of what happens is baldness is not at all acurate. But that is a whole other issue.

What I'm saying is that new follicles can be formed where none existed previously if they are prompted to biochemically. In addtion a single follicle may produce two hairs, making the hair/fur more dense.

In older people, those are not all previously established roots, some are new and hence the increased density and lenght of the hair around the ears and in teh eyebrows.

New hairs= increased density.

They can't be prompted to if they are not there LOL, those older people you speak of with no previoulsy established roots, have the roots there already they just have not been activated to grow. We all have a certain amount of follicles not stimulated or triggered to grow, yet the roots or follicles which ever you decide to use are still there until we pass.

I agree if you can stimulate new follicle growth where there is none you have heavier density. Provided your not losing the same amount of fur/hair some where else, probably would eqaute to a status quo, really.

Only thing is the stimulations occurs with follicles already in place and not activated, which would create heavier fur density.

However this is not createing new follicles where none exsisted before, they were already inplace and just activated!

Yes some follicles will indeed grow two hairs, although that is a low precentage of the fur/hair.

Lenght in fur has no bearing on density, or people, it's just longer is all.

I've never seen or heard of new actual follicles being created in a bald person where they have lost the follicles. I have heard of and seen re-generation of old follicles though, with chemical and diet controls. As well as transplanted hair which is a lot quicker process to attain.

I never said anything about what happens to cause baldness, though most of that is genetics as well, other conditions which could apply are accidents, chemical imbalances and cancer treatments,i.e. chemo-therapy

Wow!!!! Photosynthesis too protein synthesis who'd a thunk it.

The "trigger" for the onset of "primness" is the amount of daily light, or better, the lack of daily light. The quality of primness is a function of energy (health status; age, diet and caloric intack) and the individual's genetic compliment (population characteristics). ALL of which are under hormonal control via specific secretory activities and feed back mechanisms among interacting hormones. BUT it IS the amount of daily light that TRIGGERS the onset of "primness".

Roots and follicles are two very different things. Roots are part of a hair, made of keratin, a protein. Follicles are a structure in the dermis layer of the skin made of acutal living cells. I'm a little confused at what you are getting at, but yes, new follicles can arise where there was not one before, and existing follicles can become hyperplastic.

What I'm saying is that fur primeness has alot to do with photoperiod, but there is absolutely no way that that is the only factor.

Also, fur density is not genetically predetermined, it is to some extent but not to the point that it would inhibit survival in the event of a large northward migration or dramatic climae change. A texas coyote could survive a MN winter if he moved north in July.

All I know is that I'm glad I live in MN and the fur is pretty good all season.

Ok so we agree on the point of primeness being activated by light LOL, thats enough for me!!

I think a coyote could survive most anywhere if he had things to eat!!

Melatonin implants are small rubber pellets that are implanted in the back of the neck of ranch mink and ranch fox. There is a time limit on when this can be done. The best time to do this is between July 4th and July 21st. Anytime before and after causes more of the animals to not be prime.

Our mink will be prime before mid-October which is when we will start pelting them. Implanted animals should not be kept for breeding stock. Implants make the animals bigger and saves a month or better on the feed bill.

Humans use melatonin as a sleep aid.

Have to disagree there.Working with fox and mink in the artificial breeding genetics has pretty much everything thing to do with density and fur quality.

I agree with that, but not in an absolute sense. The animal is capable of increasing their density beyond a previous season's highest density. What I'm saying is that they will adapt. I would have to think that if by some bizarre global phenomenon the transition to fall/winter started in the end of june and daylight remained on its normal schedule. Say it would be roughly 20 degrees by the end of august (when it would normally be 60-70) animals would have grown thicker fur despite the light. Critters wouldn't be freezing to death all over. I realize that if a catostrophic cold snap happened out of season in a sudden way, animals would not be able to adapt and many would perish.

No, it is from angel tears.

When the WI DNR screws the WI sportsmen, the angels cry.

These tears make the fur prime up.

Still have to disagree.I worked extensively with fox on the ranch for around 10 years mostly in the AI breeding end of it handling and keeping records on the average of 20,000- 25,000 fox a year.Contrary to belief the money is in the breeding stock and the low grade furred fox and mink are what get pelted.Most have seen ranch fur garments and seen how nice the fur is but your eyes would pop out if you seen what the top grade fur was that it came from.Where I worked we graded fur on a check system others do it with + or -.Anyway the scale was 1 on up to 15 check sometimes 16 check.The cut off was around 9-10 check and lower that got pelted and that was further determined what the parents graded out at.Most pups that graded out say around 9 or 10 with parents grading out higher like 12-15 would be held over and fed another year or 2 because they could still possibly develop better fur genetically also by breeding those with a higher quality animal the offspring could be better than the parent.This is the only time I've seen fur quality actually get better was with pups in there second year.We also bought fox from all over the country for breeding stock and I can tell you animals from the south didn't improve fur density or quality when they came to the ranch here in the north,they already had it.The same went for fox bought from Canada,their fur density and quality didn't regress due to a warmer climate.Now on a different note we also raised Polars and Blue fox,these animals are from the extreme cold climates and their fur density is thick but it's because of their genetic make up,there fur density did not diminsh being in the lower 48,we also crossed these Polars and Blues with Silvers,Red and various other colors of fox.That in turn produced Silvers,Reds etc with a higher fur density but with sorter guard hair but were a sterile animal,so you can increase the fur density and quality through breeding either way.I don't claim to know everything on this subject but worked side by side with a man I believe did,he was very meticulous in his records and went through and found the different genetic codes that could produce every single color possible in the Red Fox genus Vulpes Vulpes.He was only 1 of 3 in the world at the time to know how to breed fox AI without using a surgical procedure.In all the time I worked with the fox I did not see an increase in fur density and quality with fox being brought in from warmer locations or diminish coming from colder regions,only with pups after their first year,pups are usually flatter than adults anyway.But the fact is their stuck with what their born with.

you couldnt be anymore off base.

it IS genetic in a sence that due to years of evolving to the surrounding climate, and i mean YEARS the fur gets adapted to the enviroment.

NO WAY NO HOW will a texas coyote grow northern fur in his life EVER.

Now that I would agree with.

Here's a basic explanation. When studying fur growth it's usually done on an individual hair basis and referred to as a hair. Hair growth is not a continuous process. There are different periods in the hair growth cycle. They are the growing phase(anagen), the resting phase(telogen) and the period between the two phases(catagen). These phases vary by species. In most wild animals, the growth process(anagen) takes days or weeks, depending on the species. It is then followed by the transition phase(catagen) in which the melanin formation in the hair bulb(root) slows and stops. The lack of melanin in the bulb gives the skin side of the pelt a creamy white appearance. The resting phase(telogen) is next. At the beginning of this phase, the pelt is considered prime. All growth in the hair has ceased and wil begin to fade and show wear. The completed hair is referred to as a club hair. The club hair may be dislodged when the new hair begins to grow in the anagen phase or kept while a new hair grows beside it (like in dogs) and is shed later. For animals that molt once(muskrat,beaver,otter,red fox, wolverine,bear,etc.)or twice(arctic fox, snowshoe hare, marten, weasel, mink, etc.) per year, the resting phase is the longest to ensure the animal will always have fur. For animals with only one molt per year, hair growth begins in spring and continues gradually thru summer with a burst of growth in the fall resulting in prime furs in Nov./Dec. Numerous hormones produced by the pineal, thyroid, adrenal and gonadal glands influence these stages of growth. The effects these hormones have on stopping or starting growth are mediated by the pituitary, which is triggered by light,i.e. daylength.

Nice post! Informative! How closly in time does the "fall burst" occur from year to year? Within weeks?, days?, minutes? What factors contribute to the yearly variation, if any? Thanks!

My last post is a basic explanation. There are obviously other factors involved, but the main trigger(the one constant in the environment) is daylength. However, regardless of daylength an undernourished animal will not have as 'prime' a coat as a healthy animal. In other words, healthier animals(a yearly variation) should mean better furs.

Animals need their winter coat to protect them from the cold. So, it's cold weather that makes fur turn prime. Pure and simple.

I'm afraid that all the science proves that statement incorrect.



To the question of does it happen within days or minutes or weeks each year I can tell you that there are very large amounts of empirical data that show that the mink in the Sitka, Alaska area will be fully prime within 2 days of december first every year. It may be sooner or later depending on your latitude but I'd bet the date is similarly consistent in different areas.

Hudson Bay Company has a couple hundred years worth of records on various species, particularly coon, that give loads of information on this subject. Whats nice is that the records usually contain the location that the hides came from.

I noticed that also White. The very first fox I caught in Alaska was a cross fox the first night of the season. It wasn't but a few days before, when the kids went Halloweenin it was below zero. Well, that fox was as blue as an early November Maryland fox.

So are you saying all "hairs" on an animal are in the same phase at the same time?

Charles, I'm not saying that a Tx yote would grow fur equal to that of a northern animal But, I would hypothesize that if you took that Tx yote and decreased his light by 4 min/day until he was down to 8hrs of light/day but kept him at 100 degrees his coat would not be as thick as if you did the same light regimen and kept him at 10 degrees.

My whole point is that light alone cannot accout for 100% of fur condition, no way no how!

I thought the aliens came each year to hunt for bigfoot and scare the critters so bad their hide turns white and it takes all winter for them to recover back to normal, all except for lions that the aliens catch and paint black and release them where they don't belong to make people think there are jaguars on the loose. Being a well informed trapperman addict I don't know where these ideas come from?

I am saying that there are phases. When it looks like it's shedding, it is. Most of the individual hairs are doing the same thing at the same time. Later in the year when it doesn't look like it's shedding, it's not. When a fur is prime, it's prime for the same reason.
As far as the Texas coyote example, unfortunately it would have the same coat it would have got if it were in the wild. It doesn't have the ability to predict the weather and will do it's best to stay cool while waiting on cooler weather in it's new heavy fur coat. Daylength change is the same time every year, weather(temperature) is not.

The phase cycles must be very different in animals than in humans.

So would a furbearer from texas die in the winter if brought to MN in June and be allowed to experience the decrease in photoperiod?

johnsd16, I think your missing the point of the original question, what causes the fur to prime?

No one here has said that light is the only source of priming, what we have tried to say in many different and intelligent and very informed ways is that light is the triggering point for the priming action to begin and end.

While there are many other factors to consider for the primeness of the fur, diet, habitat, latitude, stress, male or female, genetics. And lots of others.

The single fact remains that less light during the day is the activating agent for priming to begin.

I understand, but answering the complex question of what makes fur prime by saying - "light...period" I see as inacurate. That was said at the beginning of the thread.

I still am curious to know, and I'm sure there are guys who have worked on fur ranches on here....

...If you bring a southern wild animal to the north in the summer and put them in an outdoor pen will they die when winter comes?

I really am wondering if this happens with furbearers, I know it doesn't with deer.

johnsd16 - "If you bring a southern wild animal to the north in the summer and put them in an outdoor pen will they die when winter comes?"

There is a big difference in the fur density when comparing some southern fur to northern fur. If a species migrated to the south from a colder northern climate eons ago, there would be an evolution of the animal to adapt to the warmer climate.

This has nothing to do with primeness. Fur in the south does prime up, but the density of the prime fur in the south isn't as thick as that of the northern prime fur. Therefore, it would not be as protected against the colder northern climate.

I'm not asking if southern fur primes. I'm really just asking if you bring a coyote from say, south texas, to MN in june and put it in a pen, will in be incapable of growing a sufficient coat to survive a northern winter come january?

It doesn't take eons for evolution to occur. Animals can also migrate from south to north.

No he wouldn't die as he would have time to adjust as the photo-period shortened. Humans have a fairly short dna strand that constitues our genetic makeup,meaning that we use our brains to fiqure things out as they come along more often than the info is programmed into our genetic makeup. a animal lets say a yote has a pretty long recumbient dna strand meaning that more of its bodily and daily functions are controlled by its genetic makeup,meaning that it is born kmowing that a certain amount of light at a certain angle or degree to its location dictate how heavy and when a coyotes winter coat come in and its hide primes up. The yote knows nothing of this consiously, it's body just makes it happen. it is a gradual process that starts slow and ends after the winter eqiunox when daylight hours start to increase again, triggering the animals coat growing to stop.
A yote from texas would be fine if it had time to adjust.
You can also look at it as what make a tree turn colors and drop its leaves in the fall? they don't need a frost or anything they just know by the amount of light hitting them.

I don't think they adapt that quickly johnsd16. We had beavers intoduced to NC from different sources back in the 60's. Some originated in Wisconsin and some from Alabama. 40 years later, the Wisconsin descendants still have the very thick fur, and the Alabama beavers still have the very thin fur.

So, if this carries over to other species, I don't think they'd adapt to the change quick enough to grow the denser fur to survive the extreme northern temps of winter. This is merely my theory based on my experience with beaver fur, so it may not be viable with other species.

no, he WONT have enough time, adaptation takes YEARS, if not EONS.

The particular animal, is PRE-DESPOSED to grow a certain amount of fur.

heres a thought- IF you took a snowshoe hare, and put it in florida, even in the first day of summer, he will STILL grow white hair and big feet, becasue his GENES, his DNA tells his body to do it, animlas DO NOT have chameloen type abilities.

WHERES MARK JUNE WHEN YOU NEED HIM!

great exmple paul.

...If you bring a southern wild animal to the north in the summer and put them in an outdoor pen will they die when winter comes?


It's my opinion that that they won't necessarily die if they have the required calerie intake to maintain normal body heat. I know for sure that when the weather suddenly turns off cold, their appitite will increase. This is to boost the available energy for body heat and compensate for the lack of insulation. If there is a wind with the cold, their needed calorie intake will increase more if they don't have a place to get out of it.

WOW. I'm glad I didn't take the same genetics course you did. The size of the mamalian genomes are very similar. Humans for sure don't have a genome that is significantly different in size from a dog. In fact in my education the canine genome was used as an example for excessive disequilibrium, thus showing an ability to adapt, vary, and change that is not even approached by any other in the animal kingdom.

But you have supplied an answer to my question, the coyote would not freeze to death. Interesting.

Depends on the temp and habitat you give him, they adapt to conditions pretty readily. He may just sit and shiver all winter long if fed enough, however he will feel the temps being different, theres no doubt about that!!

However if your going to just leave him out there in a pen and not feed him enough to cover his needs, yea he will probably die.

Your trying to equate an evolutionary pattern to just weeks when this has taken centuries for them to adapt to.

It's not rocket science LOL, we in the trapping hobby/fur/business all know about different animals having different pelts at different times of the year.

Many animals due to thier latitude prime in different times during the year.

This why one sees Bobcats and Badgers prime way late compared to canine here in the west, due to the way and wherefores of thier lives and habitats.

Same for the rest of the animals in different parts of the country.

THE DEFENITVE answer to what triggers fur to prime is PHOTOPERIODISM.

the reason why, and makes much sence, is the length of day from year to year is pretty consistant.

HOWEVER, even if they relied on temperature, just a little, what happens when you get one of those unseasobly cool or warm spells in a season, then they would go shedding of growing un-needingly and would be all out of whack.

the sun, my friends, is natures calander.

I agree on the snowshoe issue. Right on. Based on your above quote, I see you have never read Darwin.

PFFFFFT hlaf of darwins stuff is results of inbreeding.

think about it, the galapagos islands? whole bunch of animals breeding thier litter mates, makes genetic mutants.

i only buy in to A LITTLE of darwin.

johnsd16, don't make this more painfull for you than it already has been LOL!!

and that little bit is the theory of natural selection. not so much the theory of evolution, that wwe all come from one source, but lets not go there on this thread

PHOTOSYNTHESIS



LMFAO

The Texas Coyote coming to MN in July probably will not die simply because it will not be able to grow enough dense under fur to stay warm. Eating calories is another way to generate body heat and stave off cold also. If the animal makes the winter and mates be it male or female their offspring will be 50% from native stock and thus the low density fur, or thinner pelt will only be for that individual and for only as long as the individual lives.
To me it is amazing that we look at such a major natural event from one aspect fur quality or density. There are huge north-south, East-West and high altitude and low altitude migrations of millions of animals annually that may have similar triggers. To think that only fur bearers are part of this phenomenon is not correct in my book. Don't see too many wood chucks, chipmucks, bears etc. with thermometers at the den entrances either.

Bryce

Good point Bryce, one that many of us who spend a great amount of time in the outdoors have not let go unseen.

A great part of any outdoor activity or actually any thing really is learning how to react or invite yourself into the realm of understanding it. Point being education about your interests will go miles towards increasing your harvest in at least this forums heart, Trapping

Luckily someone already put photosynthesis on this post, I still have some catching up to do.

And thanks to Nick for continuing to point it out.

I more people knew a lot about genetics, the comment on the size and functional differences between the canine and human genomes would actually be more laughable than ......photosynthesis.

yes, the genomes are all very similiar, and this can be seen in embryonic development, however, when your talking about so many genomes, and the way all the T'C's and A's line up, just a LITTLE bit of varince makes all the difference.

Charles, how could you forget about the coolest base, the G's.

Nick just likes to show off LOL he's Andy's shadow LOL.

Really don't matter about the DNA level or how it's made up, your not dealing with Professors here.

What does matter is that people understand when prime is taking place and not to take animals to soon for the lower dollar value.

After all part of the harvest is to get the highest market value for your efforts!

So, as trappers we should related to a date on the calendar and ignore the weather. Makes sense to me, I'll buy that photoperiod is the single largest determining factor year in and year out.

In trapper jargon, is physical pelt damage (ie - rubbed, singed) considered coming down from prime, or can an animal still be prime but rubbed real bad? Or would that animal be considered past prime?

Speak for yourself Grit.

Animals can be rubbed when prime, sure, very easily, fur can be damaged in many ways when its prime.

Singed fur is a product of heat making the fur curl, meaning the fur hairs got to hot and actually curl, theres no fix for this and your pelt will be down graded for it. It's not generally a sign of un-prime fur, thats really a misnomer for water bearers, another reason for people to be educated about thier targets.

Some animals can start rubbing while still prime, depending on thier conditions and habitat, many things besides the end of the priming cycle can cause them to rub. Parasites, bad health, lots of stuff in the fur causing problems with the skin, mating, just normal actions of the animals in the field can cause rubbing.

Lots of canines here look pretty bad in late winter due to laying on ice and snow then jumping up and getting fur pulled off them, makes them look like they are half gone, LOL, you peel them down and nothing is amiss on the inside.

I've shot coyotes in March way past prime here for most and some have been prefect with no sign of any prime ending.

However for most general layman's use when animals are visibily seen as being rubbed usually they are well past prime.
----------------

Wacky, you never was in here and now you show up for gradunation LOL!!