NAFA predictions

Been hearing alot of rumors, none are great news. Hear it will be gloom and doom and I've heard potentially 10-20% better on coon..and thoughts?

Not sure what happen, sometimes in past I rember good sale or not many coon sell an pick better ones out, next sale, all sell, no idea

I'm interested to see what coyotes and fox do

Pretty quite in the country on coyote prices now a days ,

I think those that sold coyotes in the country are going to be pretty disappointed after the auction sales are finished and the prices of the different grades are published.

What The Heck Did Coonman Just Say ?

Can Anyone Translate For Me ?

w

On a general trapper run or your typical top the pile type selling to Nafa?

Percentage of clearance will be what I will look at closely.

Bryce

some sales they cherry pick some the whole shebang gets sold

Good marketable fur of course,there is no market for poor fur right now.

I think if the guys who shipped are honest, their top will be better but overall average will probably be pretty close. Unfortunately auction averages usually only consist of first sections.

Agreed

I'd be pretty disappointed if my avg wasn't a good bit above the auction avg.I have seen the bins full of very poor fur they have to lot and try to sell.

Boco I agree there poor fur handling for sure,
But there needs to be more informative report other than 1st.section stuff

Needs to be the Good the Bad And the uglyyyyyyy kind of report.

They may not offer them on this sale but eventually there will be pages of 1-3 $ coyotes

No doubt.Red,most of the sec 3 fur is not from poor handling(some of course is).It is unprimed and damaged fur. Sec 3 fur is an extremely small percentage of a collection in a normal trapping season for trappers.I wouldn't want to try to figure out my income and expenses on an auction avg that includes sec 3 fur.That would not be a true reflection of a normal collection of fur.That is why it is never included in an auction avg of marketable fur.I don't know any trapper that would want that stuff included in the sale avg.

They do provide valuable service to fur industry for sure the report imo just needs to be more inclusive.

Well where the (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) do they come from, must be normal for someone. If your
Not including every skin it’s not a true average

Agreed
The average is all skins. Period

I want to know the avg of sec 3 skins to know if they are worth shipping or not.We pay royalties on skins here and a beaver that is only worth 3 dollars as a sec 3 will put you in the hole after royalty and commission,etc.If they are 5 or 6 avg they may get sent.
I get maybe 3 or 4 sec 3 skins from dmg out of a few hundred.I don't want to see those type of skins in the auction avg,it would not be a true avg of a normal trappers collection.
That stuff must come from country buyers or something because trappers here anyway don't get half their catch damaged.

Well, in the lower 48 everyone seems to compare state auctions against nafa auctions. State auctions do not separate damaged or section 3 goods from the average.

Where do you think the country buyer gets crap, the trapper. Trust me for some trappers section threes are the norm.

Now Boco this was point to your comment on guys that sold country verses nafa ,FHA these pelts get into the offering and sell ,then they should be counted is my point.

If you get any they are part of your average. Looks to me like you are just a normal trapper that has a large share of good fur but still normal.... I enjoy your pictures and reading most of your posts but you seem to think you are better than the rest of us. May God bless you with more good fur...

Not so,Are you telling me that a lot of your fur is sec 3 fur?
I could show you reams of auction receipts with hardly any sec 3 fur,and it is the same with all the trappers I know.Not just me.
I see posts all the time on here of trappers tossing fur that is not worth skinning or shipping-sick,damaged etc.That is the right thing to do.I don't know any trappers who ship that kind of fur.I would like to know who ships this kind of fur?maybe nuisance trappers who have already been paid for removing an animal and think they may get an extra buck or two?I trap nuisance beaver,they are not marketable,I would not ship it.This stuff shouldn't be sold to the auction house,and when it is it definitely should not be avged in with in season marketable fur.

Southern fur will never be as nice as northern and yet they still allow southern fur to be shipped. That has to equate in the average some way...

As far as I know,prime southern fur is not sec 3 fur.

Not mine, but as a buyer I can tell you your fur and my fur are not the norm. There are so many guys that start to early, trap to late, don’t know how to handle fur, don’t know or don’t care if their fur is good or not and it all ends up somewhere, somehow some way.

And I'm glad they avg that stuff separately,and so should the guys that ship it so they know how much it is costing them to do that.And others too who may be thinking about trapping early or late,or skinning mangy or dmgd fur.This is the avg I will get as compared to the avg I will get if I trap in season and don't skin mangy or dmgd fur.
This is why the fur is sectioned and averaged this way.

Sounds like some kind of hobby?

And I’ll say this, and even though outside of coyotes the harvest is down I guarantee the percent of low grade fur is up because serious trappers who care about catching quality didn’t go, while hobby guys and newbies and kids killed most of the fur resulting in poorer quality fur. Then add in all the guys chasing dollar signs after coyotes who started way to early and went way to late because they don’t know any better.

Not sure what that’s supposed to mean

I think the Jack Links sasquatch is playing with his phone. Lol.

Boco, please allow me to drive you to the ER, because your shoulder must surly be dislocated from patting yourself on the back. LOL

Boco, down here in the lower 48 we have a certain groups that harvest fur via other methods other than trapping. Coon hunters are the first group that comes to mind. I would also like to add that within hunter, and trapper education many young outdoorsmen/women are taught to utilize as much as possible, thus instilling a certain aspect of respect for the species they harvest. Many focus group studies have been done, and it was found that peoples opinion of trapping was very positive in cases where the species harvested were utilized to their full potential. With that said, sure some low quality fur is coming to a show near you soon. Coon hunters have a real hard time grading fur up a 40" hickory tree at 2Am, and while having to deal with dogs to boot. Buyers see all types of offerings, good, bad, and of course the ugly. There will be times buyers will look at the collection they have purchased overall, and wonder to themselves, what the heck have I done. I know your going to tell me the buyers need to educate their customers, and to some degree I would agree, but some are going to continue no matter how much you tell/show them. To some degree even beating them to death upon price in many case doesn't matter. Buyer have to market this fur some place, and there are many times low grades will move way before upper end goods.

RTT

RTT,you missed the point,Sec 3 fur should always be avged separately from marketable fur.
Of course there will always be some coming in from hobbyists and uneducated.This is not representative of a professional trappers collection sent to auction,and this is why it is always avged separately by both auction houses.
I know the trappers around here want to see an avg that reflects what they target and sell.
They also want to know what sec 3 fur avg is from sale to sale to make sure if they ship it they wont lose money on royalty and other deductions.

IMO the fur industry is reaping the rewards of cheap prices. You want suppliers to supply you product at a loss, then want them to care about what their fur is worth. You have convinced many trappers to trap for fun, good luck making them care about trapping to maximize the value in dollars of their fun. Then you got guys keeping score in their sport by how much they catch, not whether what they catch is profitable. The Auctions got them playing a lottery to keep them trapping at a loss. The ADC guys need a dumping ground. The industry wants cheap fur, you're getting it.

I personally think that if you catch it, you put it up. It is a waste of a resource if you throw away an animal you harvested. In the lower 48, it is impossible to not catch a certain percent of section III fur. In our world we have lots of things that go wrong with our wild life. from sow coons that have a very late litter to muskrat that have very late litters. We then have bugs and lots of different bugs to contend with. Then we have disease. Then we have roads that have big machines called cars that hit animals that cause damage but don't kill the animal. Then we have animals that live in conditions that either don't let the fur prime right or don't give the animal the nourishment to produce a nice coat. Then in places we have animals that get into fights because of an early breading season or just get into fights because they just plain hate each other> Boco, you must live in animal heaven where conditions are always right to produce no 1 fur or you throw a lot of fur away. Come to the lower 48 and you will get quite an education.

No thanks,And don't think it is only me,all the trappers I know here,and I know a lot,dont target unprimed fur,and don't ship damaged fur that is worth 2 dollars that they have to pay 3 dollars royalty on.Sure we catch nuisance animals out of season,but the unmarketable ones don't go to the auction.The auction even tells you they don't want unmarketable fur.Why do you think they put out fur handling manuals with all that info repeated over and over again.We need to present a decent product to the international buyers.
Maybe you could come here and get an education also.
Anyway what does that have to do with averaging the poor fur out separate from the fur trade fur?It is to the benefit of the producer to know what each section of fur is worth on avg so he can make the proper marketing decisions.
And if you encourage young trappers to put up mangy and damaged fur that is not wanted by the trade you are not doing our profession any favours,in more ways than one,thats for sure.

Boco, is right in what he is telling you, for how many years now have both auction houses asked shippers not to send no value fur.
Third section stuff should be used as bait and or discarded. Nobody wants the stuff and it just cost the whole industry money it does not have. If you are buying, I honestly suggest don't buy that sh-t. If a coon hunter wants to start the first of Oct. don't buy the stuff.

Creaming of the best and selling elsewhere then shipping the garbage to auction is not helping anybody.Before you ship clean out the crap first, if you have to buy it to get the better goods, do the industry a favour and burn the crap.

This business is way past being able to absorb summer skins, road kills, mangy, lice infested, rubbed out pelts. The only market thriving right now is the coyote ruff market and for that you need a finished well furred skin. The thousands of pieces of crap that will come in hoping to get a few bucks just kills this market.

Correct in not sending unsaleable fur, but if a guy from the states sends 100 coyotes he has to include every single one of them when he tells me his avg. if he doesn’t it’s not a true avg. I don’t care about the five that sold for $120, I wanna know what his avg is on all 100 put together. Everyone is so jacked up to tell you about their highest coyote but doesn’t say a peep of the $6,$5,$4,$3,$2,$1 and even 50 cent ones! They also usually tell you the avg. before commission which also is not their true avg.

Keep in mind that comparing the sale results from a country buyer vs the auction is like comparing apples to alligators, particularly in this market. What I mean is, if you take a truckload of fur to the country buyer, he is going to refuse a certain amount of fur (these would all grade Sec. III). Those, then, wouldn't be included in his average. The shipper, on the other hand, will send everything they finish, including Sec. III stuff (except Boco, of course), there by, dragging their average down. Make sense?

Boco, upon the topic of grading out section 3 fur separately, yes I agree I have no problem with that approach to grading, but that is not going to stop it from show up at the front door of the buyer, or at the auction. I'm all for helping educating people, and there are more tools available at this point in history to do just that than ever before, but its still not going to stop, or even decrease the amount of section 3 fur, because of the very culture that exist here of utilize what you harvest.

Gibb, in the lower 48 furbearers are harvested for other reasons besides just the wishes, or desires of the fur trade. Yes I understand if a person is going play in the fur game, and maximize their profit potential, then yes keeping the section 3 fur to a minimum is essential to good average prices received. Gibb, our wildlife agency's in the lower 48 look at trappers as more of an alternative to pets control lots of times, not that I agree with that assessment, but I'm just pointing out the very facts. The agency's look at trappers as a value in controlling furbearer populations, and how those populations enter act with other species, many endangered. It's a know fact that if trappers in the lower 48 had to sell the ideology of trapping based upon the wishes, or desire of the fur industry, then I believe trapping would not even exist in the lower 48. There have been studies done that attest to this as fact, with many focus group studies done of non trapper/hunters through out our country. Within those focus groups it was found that the rate of acceptance of trapping as a viable means of harvest increased dramatically, when those participating within these studies were told that these trappers utilized their catches to their upmost potential. We train our youth within our country to utilize as much as possible, that is just the way we roll mister.

I find it very funny that the auction houses would even complain about all the section 3 fur. I think at one time when we had more country buyers, that may of acted as a filter of those goods. Some buyers refusing to purchase them, or at least offering them for sale via private treaty away from the auction houses, thus not exposing them to the auction floor. The auction houses seeking business after the 87 -early 90's shake up went with the approach of targeting the trapper more directly than they had in the past. The filter was taken away, and even more so by certain actions taken by the auction houses in what I feel was a direct attempt to circumvent country buyers altogether, a pure business move that helped the bottom line for the auction houses, but one I feel that was very detrimental trapping as a whole in the lower 48. The auction house never complained when orders were coming in for large volumes of section 3 fur, and they were moving section 3 goods readily at each sale, at levels that most felt were respectable. To some degree the auction houses made their bed, so sleep with it.

RTT

Without any doubt in my mind trappers are used by society to clean up excess animal populations, in my home province/state we have an issue with beaver populations, the fur market does not provide an honest return on the harvesting so the numbers of problem beaver issues has sky rocketed.
What was the answer for the government open the season earlier and close it later. Trappers run out and catch even less desirable piece of fur that the fur market can not use. Trapping for beaver can start Oct. 5th here and now closes in most areas April 30th.
Trappers are being used to catch shitty fur for a fur market that does not want it and instead of blaming the government (which by the way gets a free ride here plus taxes us on each skin) the trappper's blame the auction companies.
What we really need is a much shorter season, focus on when the beaver really have some value.

I have been in this skin game a long time and the old model of fur buyers always used the auction companies as a dumping ground for 3rd section furs.

Correct. The averages posted in the NAFA or FHA sales summaries are not intended to be total sale averages to compare with local trapper sales or your average from the rat wagon window. They clearly state that the averages are for better goods and do not include section III. The average by section and the percent sold can give the shipper an idea what decent goods from your section are bringing. And those averages are somewhat comparable from sale to sale to see if the market is advancing or declining. An overall sale average would be very decieving depending on what moves and what is held back. The auction house sets minimums on the better quality goods and may hold back a large percentage if those minimums are not achieved. They are far more likely to move the section III goods at any price if there is interest. What good is an average that includes a few select lots and a couple of pages of section III?

Spot on Jim and walleye 101.

your exactly right gibb its all about the revenue the auction companys and fur buyers can tell the trappers to wait untill the fur is prime and the trappers say their going to wait and then when the goverment opens the season the suckers are out there catching as much worthless fur as they can and putting it on the market which keep the market down even longer then they put all their pictures on the computer like they did something special just like their still in elementary school at show and tell time and all the kids and guys that dont know a low grade fur from a prime one gets on and tell them how good of trapers they are and they like looking at their pictures their the ones that have hurt the market as long as the seasons stay the same the guys will keep going out and catch worthless fur nothing will change.

How does junk fur that goes mainly to the craft trade, a what not or hatter markets got to do with keeping the market down for prime good hides that goes to the fur coat industry. I wouldn't think they would build a fur coat out of flat blue sow coons or beavers hides full of holes.

Who cares what average NAFA uses? Averages are useless. There is too much variability in fur. If you want to get a ballpark figure of what your fur is worth then look at the past NAFA catalog at grades that your fur usually fall into.

Apparently a lot of people care! You have to admit it makes for an entertaining game of competative averaging on Trapper Talk before and after every major auction.

So basically anybody that don't live in Canada should not be allowed to sell on the international market,and southern trappers shouldn't even be allowed to trap, no body wants to talk about the fact that 15000 mink will be sent in this yr. Along with umpteen thousand coon in a crappy market, witch causes a surplus of cheap fur, that in fact once the market does come back will do so slower and stay there less time,what about the 8 doller otters that brought 30 a couple yrs back and 25 doller otter that brought 75 or 100 but they'll be sold for nothin eny how, I guess that stuff don't hurt the markett? your giving your fur away but the mentality is I'll get mine crap on you! Just like nobody going by a standard put up this hurts are market! A few yrs back fur was booming tons of folks on here wouldn't even tell what they sold for and with all the dignity in the world would claim not to be trapping for money, now the market is dismal to say the least and its all we talk about, I trap for money and to be in the woods I ant sold a mink otter or rat in 3 yrs I ant targeted cheap coons in 3 yrs I've got freezers full of good fur that won't bring what it's worth so ill set on it, I worked for it I'm not giving it away, all other incidentals and cheap fur I dump at the end of season, if every body did this we would set the market not chance it by the tail!
Colt

But you have to remember this. When the market Is strong there are less Sec 111 goods then when the market Is soft. Lots of variables are over looked In strong market.

Well this southern boy get hire to kill the mess and there my income so I'm not much for ditching winter fur so we're about to dump enough southern crap fur on the market to keep it down another two years, lol. Got hundreds and hundreds of small southern coons, some good some blue and some full of holes and all nafa bound. So glad I got a good meat market. Shouldn't hurt to bad seeing how very few traps for the money any how. lol.

There is a pile of guys here still trapping fox coyotes and coon. As soon as you mention it's to late and the fur is going down hill you get labled as a know it all or your jealous. They don't understand that the same animal will be worth more next November. I don't like seeing guys out harvesting seed for next year that isn't worth anything and saying ... One less Fawn killer or one less egg eater. I can't make money selling wild pheasants and fawns. But I can sell those rubbed out coyotes that will be prime next November and the coon with paper thin Leather your catching in February that will be prime next year.

I remember when I hauled back a load of SC coon to WI and shipped them to NAFA for a buddy. When the smoke cleared He averaged some where In the $17.00 range. So much for junk southern fur.

Sounds like this is the new stir the pot thread. I do agree that bad fur is bad fur and it is up to the trapper to learn what should and shouldn't be sent. I see nothing wrong with ditching the stuff that is worthless. With all due respect, it's called culling and needs to be done...

Gibb, first off I don't think trappers are blaming the auction hoses for low quality fur, but the auction houses have to realize that not everyone has access to the primo goods, especially in the lower 48. Arkansas beaver are never going to equal the quality of the beaver Boco has upon his line, so don't expect the guy from Arkansas to ship goods equal to Baco's

Gibb, we can blame the government, but they will just say screw you, and make trapping a damage control proposition only. I think at times many of our so call northern brethren would love nothing but to have that happen. I guess we could just keep making America great again, and market our own good right here in the lower 48, just maybe that is what needs to happen anyway. I get sick of hearing how all the low grade fur comes form the lower 48, and that fur is holding back your better high end goods from up north. This happens every time fur takes a dump, and there is always a certain segment of the industry looking to gain a market advantage, and the Yankee clowns to the north are always the first knot heads to jump upon the wagon, brilliant. When we have a market we can't produce enough, and when things go down stream they don't even wish to acknowledge us as fur producers, plus you somehow choose to ignore the millions of ranched goods still coming to market, I guess that's the trappers fault as well. LOL

To say the country fur buyer just use the auction houses as a dumping grounds is not correct, and a complete unfair account of how many country buyers conduct business, but keep beating the anti country buyer agenda. Some things never change. The great Canadian fur scam continues, remember your fur is worthless, so hurry up, and send it to us. LOL

RTT

Most trappers do not know what to cull to be honest. LLL

Good fur bad fur mediocre fur It all seems to find a place on the market. So looking at It that way It all has some value.

I disagree that prime fur from the south is worthless or sec 3.The only difference is the sectioning,and you have a shorter window for harvesting.
If you don't think there are poor pelts here I may be able to find a few pics later on.
Right now I gotta go pull some traps,season for land fur closes in a couple days.

Beav
That's right that's wy the blame game is crap it's all on us in one respect or another!
Ringtail spot on!
Colt

Here is an idea that may give a lot of people the answers they want, doubt it will settle any bickering. With the technology, and I know both auctions have it or can get it fairly easy, list the averages for each species for each grade. You would have an average for selects, I's, II's a combination of I-II's and so forth. It wouldn't take much to set it up and when the auction is over print it. Most people need to realize and remember that the "number" is the easiest thing to manipulate in the world. But until that happens it's very entertaining on here come auction time.

If it sells is it really junk fur?

Exactly
And we could run our own averages, and ones that do not want to know can carry on. Perfect

If it sells below my production cost, yes it is. I got a whole forest full of top grade junk fur.

Most of our seasons start to early & end to late. For some guys quantity is more important than quality. With fisher & marten if I start on opening day in Northern Maine I will catch some grade II's. If I wait a week or two no II's all I's or better. I hear guys talking about low value coyotes. I personally would never skin & put-up a fur that I thought was not at least a II grade. Every year I catch coyotes that stay in the woods after dispatch.

What you see as a grade 2 hide nafa might not. Seem like on a down market a lot of fur has the tendency to go SDG on one and sell cheap.

I try to sort them out, but I do get a damaged every now and then. I do not ship any that I feel are damaged.

I've been In this game for 60 years and I still can't grade coyotes. LOL

Last year we were told we don't know how to grade our fur.
Now I read we should grade out our low quality skins.
I predict that next year, many of us will not care what we are told lol.

Glad I have an ok job to fall back on because you guys make it sound like I won't get rich trapping...

You and dang near everyone else on the planet. I've put up yotes that I thought weren't worth a dollar that later sold for over $50.00 and I've put some up that I thought were pretty nice and they end up Sec III. I think this is why the auction houses deal with so much section III fur. I think it has little to do with people intentionally sending junk. Let's face it, how many of you would spend 20-30 minutes finishing a yote for a buck, or a coon for $0.50? Probably, not too many, but a lot of folks can't judge what a 5o cent coon is VS a $4 coon. When I was finishing fur, I had guys bring me all kinds of junk. Shot up coon, mangy yotes, etc... I had a lot that ended up on the pile unskinned because it was going to cost the customer more for me to put them up than what they are worth. That said, these section III critters have, absolutely, no affect on the overall market. There is and always will be an abundance of section III stuff and, relatively speaking, a shortage of good quality skins.

90% of us haven't a clue when It comes to grading fur. And the other 10% are only guessing. And are right about 3% of the time. LOL

I was given some dog hunted coon. I did more culling this time than many others combined.
I hear you about grading coyotes. Seems All mine are mutts.
I process wild fur, not perfect farmed fur.

Where does the cheap labor at nafa fall in that?

Star you have worn them down I think lol

The cheap labor at NAFA don't grade any fur. They un load bar code sort as to size. And do the other menial tasks that peons do.
And I have no Idea what their paid.
But they DON'T grade FUR.

The royalty thing in Canada...is each species the same, or some more than others? Jeez, property tax on wild fur??

So what happened to the low end market? Did all the people and Chinese are real people, quit buying low end fur for the craft market? Funny how section III fur still moves even today. I don't buy section III fur to make money on, but I do buy it to satisfy my customer. my trappers and hunters will be the first to tell you that if you don't buy my low end stuff, I will go to a buyer that does. I like my customers and will keep my customers happy. I also been in this skin game for over 60 years and have bought and sold fur for at least 45 of those years.
I personally don't see how we can't buy and sell low end fur. The auction companies don't like section III fur because they can't make big bucks selling section III fur anymore. Let the market improve so that a good sized pelt will be worth a ten dollar bill and the auction companies won't say a word about handling our section III fur. It is all a money thing even though our company that we own says it isn't about money but about the fact that low end fur is dragging down the good fur market. How in the he can low end fur that doesn't compete with upper end fur drag down the fur market. They both have their own place in the market or they used to until our company decided they don't want low end fur at this time because they can't make money. There will be a time that they will want to handle low end fur again.
Jim Gibb, you say you been in this game a long time and I know you have and I say that I have as much respect for you as anybody in the business. I can say you and I are friends but I been in this game as long or longer than most of you older guys have been. I don't understand the way you guys talk anymore. One of the worst things we as trappers and fur buyers and people in your line of work Jim, and I know you are a teacher in our trade, can possibly talk about is not using our resource to the fullest degree. It gives us a bad name with the people we fight with every day and those people are the anti trapping people.
I don't know what to think, I scratch my head and say, what are you guys thinking about.

Well said Mr. Wolf.

Sometimes sec 3 fur sells very well and high price.But not today.Some years I sell sec 3 goods and I want to know the avgs separate from good fur so I can make that decision.

I have only been shipping coyote to NAFA for 8 or 9 years. It seems I have learned nothing. My light colored coyotes graded DBR. MY not so good skins graded as II's or worse as expected. My good skins graded as IIs' or worse as not expected. It's almost as if warm February weather caused the pelts deteriorated in transit.

BOHICA

I will quote a fur grader. "Sizing is the first step in the grading process."

You want to talk about section 3 take a look at ranch mink. Millions of pelts with that grade or worse are sold into the market every year. There is a market for section 3 goods of all kinds even still today. These sections don’t bring down the higher grades. They are their own market.

I throw away very little fur every trapping season and have never had NAFA grade any of my fur NCV. So obviously someone wants my lesser quality pelts.

Garbage in todays market,but not always the case when the market fluctuates.

I also have never had NAFA grade any fur I sent as No Value. Funny thing, all my section III fur sells on the first auction it is on. If nobody wants what you call garbage, Boco, then sec.III fur would set sale after sale. There is never a set price on sec. III fur, it finds it's own limits.

That Is a good point. But first those hides have to be sorted by size then placed In specified bins. But Jesus has a sizing board and can size pelts with a flick of his hand. Even with no training you could do It. LOL

Jesus dosen't grade fur or leather quality.

I don't think Jesus even sizes fur, not the one I know of anyway. LOL

What makes it garbage to a producer is that it costs more to put it on the market than what it sells for.Thats just the way it is in todays market.I wont skin and put up fur when I know what the avg is for that kind of fur today.When I can skin and market that stuff for a profit,as determined by the published sec 3 avg's then I will send it.Just because it sells to someone doesn't mean it's not garbage.
And that's the way I see it and how I market fur.You are free to do whatever you want,no skin off my grapes.

Boco I couldn't stand any skin off of my old grapes,the darn things hang so low now they darn near rub their own skin off.

Boco I wouldn't like it if my Government was stealing a royalty off of my pelts either. I think that is part of my Canadian friends problem. Don't give our freaks in Government any ideas either.

Royalty money goes to support our provincial fur program,and other positive fur management.I don't have a problem paying royalty on fur as long as it goes to help fund the federation, trapping, and enforcement.

I knew a furrier from Madison who was a member of the WTA. He told me when buying rats he only bought the damaged rats. He said It was really easy to sew up a few bite marks and It was worth the little time It took.

Can you give us any idea what your Royalty is on some different skins, please and thank you.

5% of the previous years average per pelt of Ontario fur sold at the auction houses.

So what does the money spent for the line go for?

It doesn't have to be sect III to be valueless to the producer. It don't have to be sect III to be valueless to the Auctions. The end user will make money off section III fur or they wouldn't buy it.

Lots of fur qualifies as garbage then. Many of them in fact
Lol

If It's done by the government then you can be sure that some of It's syphoned off for other things.

If it costs you more to produce sec 1 fur than you are getting then its time to change something in your operation\marketing to get back in the black.
I have never lost money trapping.

Losing money is a loose term

But I don't care how people value things. Whatever works for them is what is important

Your right I should of trapped a hundred $1.50 section 1 weasels. What was I thinking?

Really?

Anybody that shopped around and sold good, western coyotes before early-mid January likely made out like a raped ape!

Including the carcass dogs!

Weasels are darn good money as incidentals on a northern line.I don't market those or squirrels thru the auction house at this time.As a value added product with the current demand from both end users and vendors,there is no other fur better than ermine to market that way.

Money spent for the line? If you mean the trapline,the only money that changes hands for a trapline is between the buyer and the seller of the assets on the trapline.That has nothing to do with government.

I thought the line was bought from the govt and lost if you didn't take what you were told? I certainly could be wrong. Not my department

Nope,cannot buy a trapline only the assets,and you are indeed required to manage the resource.No one "tells"you what to take,a fur manager/trapper works with the fur techs/bios to set quotas.Quotas are set by the trapper/fur tech together,to maximize the productivity of the line.Quotas are trapline specific.Most quotas are open,marten,lynx and fisher in the NE have a maximum quota and no mandatory minimum. Beaver have a mandatory minimum and maximum.Quotas are set and adjusted on land fur using harvest data from the line.Beaver quotas are set by live colony counts whenever there is a concern by the trapper that the current quota may be too high or low.An aerial survey done by the trapper and submitted to the fur tech is one method used to adjust quota for beaver.

Thank you

You preach selling outside of the Auctions for species that are low priced at Auctions and you sent them mink and lynx and beaver. I didn't. Those section 1 furs would have truly benefited your above advice.

The beaver I send to auction sell pretty good,same with mink.You can throw otter in there too.
Lynx do very well at the auction but I do hold some for tanning.
There are certain sizes and grades of those species you mentiond that have acceptable prices(for me) at auction.You can include otter in there too.
Unlike the weasels which are all basically the same low price across the entire grade and size spectrum.

Otter? It all gets a trip to Moyles here where I have to work on my operation/marketing. Include weasels in that now. The Auctions get want they told me they wanted; XL and up marten. Why would I send them stuff they can barely sell and at prices that are well below what I can find elsewhere?

BOco are you just tanning and selling that way or doing something more with the ermine?

Just tanning and selling.Real good demand.

Don't got time to post what I got now but they are picking away at coon pt right now. $14.73 average. Probly when done an all gone $3 to $5 higher than in country , everything pretty good, $9 somethin on beaver average, just under $10 on mink, lot stuff sold, mink mostly Nov in this sale. Better stuff may. Rats, $3.59 with top $7, better rats are held back, red fox top $38, lot better than tnought an happy with prices

nafa predictions....lets see? hum!63 dollar top lot coon averages around 15 dollars.....I predict that there will be 150 million coon on the may sale lol (that number includes my 3 road kills)

And 5 million coyotes on may sale too

Sounds great Dave. This is the coon average I had been told all along for our section. LLL

Boco, you know about math, correct, the more larger values vs the ratio of low value tends to dilute the impact of the low value numbers? Maybe someone has already covered this in the thread, didn't make it all the way through the pages this morning. So, knowing the principles of math, Boco, you must be super anal, need some more ego strokes that "you're the best", or a combo of both factors (I'd vote for the combo here).

Let's do an example. Boco has 200 beavers he wants to sell and 196 are not Sec III and 4 are (his 2% given in his opening post). For the 196 non-sec III he averages $18 at auction (you Ontario beaver chasers don't get all insulted at this number, it just an example but keep in mind that if your real average beav prices are higher and you still maintain a 2% sec III ratio, the impact gets watered down even more). So Boco is grossing $3,528 on his 196 beavers. Now throw in the 4 sec III plews at $3 ave and add that additional $12 to his gross cash and divide by 200 ($3,540/200= $17.70). The 2% sec III hides brought Boco's beaver average down 30 cents U.S. A major impact (but maybe it is to him)!!

So, if Boco is worried about a 30 cent decline in his beav average, it reinforces my theory that's he super anal or he just wants to show that he and his professional boreal forest trappers are superior to everybody else. Take your pick...

Who cares.

Looks like ALOT of buy backs in the mink.

Are they profitable at 40$.

NPFC,nice theory but when the auction says don't send III,IV,And V pelts to the auction I don't.
This type of fur costs everyone money in the end. The auction house,the dressers,and even trappers that don't send it,pay for it.It is an expense right down the line in todays market.I guess the old saying-you cant tell a heinze pickle nothing holds true.The auctions keep saying not to send it right now but the dummies don't listen,lol.
You can bet when costs of processing fur goes up those costs are ultimately passed on to the producers.

Charging a commission,isn't nafa still getting their money off of lower grade fur? I mean people buy it,they get their money off of it be it $5 or $15. $9,000 commission per $100,000 sold.

If they made any money on it they would want it.They used to take it and not complain when the market was stronger.5 or 10 cents commission for handling a pelt is a loser.

I went back and looked at some of the Sec III beaver and a lot of them sold In the 14.00 range. In fact some of them sold for more then the none sec III goods.

Those trappers wouldn't have made any money on them If they would have tossed them In the ditch.
You can't grade em before you catch em.
And yes the auction house gets a commission from the seller and the buyer so they are making money.

And why would a buyer buy lesser goods If he's going to lose money on them.

Bocos statement dosen't hold air.

9% is 9%. Buy backs they don't make any money either.I would think the longer it sits the less they make as well.

Why did you throw away all your nuisance beaver Beav?Someone would have bought them but you know right well you would lose money handling them.
Your statement doesn't hold water,or credibility.

Beav, the entire beaver market is for sec III.

I didn't toss any beaver. I got paid good money to catch them I got the rest tanned and sold them to some interested parties. So NO I didn't throw any away.
But I did toss some coyotes cause I don't like skinning coyotes.

I am still selling coon. Average has went up a dollar but I didn't keep any under xxl so I guess that isn't a true average,lol.

They get a flat rate per skin fee on top of the percentage so nafa does much better on junk then most realize

15+% commission plus per skin commission
Then packing fee if it even leaves
Soooo
Nafa will sell anything if it moves. Especially hatter beaver

TBN, So you tossed coon you could have sold to the carcass market for what rats ave?

If you decide to start tossing rats.....Toss them my way! lol

I am not messing with large or xl coon just like possum or mangy coyotes or anything else.As far as rats,we don't have many rats.

More goods going pt sales an my coon average just under $15 now, all mink an beaver sold , just under $10 on beaver, can't see what they bring online, if go pt, had 1 mink bring $19.50, other $19 an another $18 something, 1 beaver brought $19.50, xl damaged brought $10 sold 6? Ounces caster? It say 6 for quantity for $22.74

Let's Go FHA!! LLL

Click on download data and it will show what lots sold for what in PT

I'm liking your Mink prices Coonman, that's alot better than before.

As for coon, that doesn't really apply to ours but is a good indication of advancing prices there too.

Unfortunately download data don't work on phone, nomore computer

Well I can't afford to pass up $7 a pop. That's what my XLs brought.

Small grinners, and mangy coyotes have no value.....I toss them as well.

Boco, I have no idea what this means...If I'm a pickle, I want to be a "bread & butter" one, I dig those way more than a dill.

Good happy for you. I will keep trapping these unwanted Kansas coyotes for $65 average.

Holy cow 7$ on XL coon. Thats better than NAFA. Groony rocks.

Yeah, 100% profit from coyotes to coon. Wish I was a traveling buyer this year.Turning 25 and 30 coyotes into 80 and $100 bills. I hope more people learn how to put up fur next year. Makes me wonder how many state sales coyotes got bought and went straight to Nafa.At any rate the gig is up and water under the bridge.

$4 pelt, $3 carcass.

My next prediction. Kansas coyotes better look out. Guessing when the average price gets out people are going to put a hurt in em next year.

Yeah when you have 2 that grade eastern and 1 brings $100 says alot about these unwanted coyotes.lol I can play this game all night but it is the first sale that China has showed up to all year.Should read these unwanted coyote that the country buyers don't want.

Ok guys do you see the next sale this good or not ???

Red it will be the same, "if NAFA didn't stack the deck so to speak with the grades", if they graded them just like they have in the past it may be better. If they tried to push lesser grades up and the buyers don't like what they ended up paying for, the prices may go south in a hurry.

I think there will be a lot of past prime stuff that will affect the overall average.

My leftover Eastern coyotes from the May sale last year sold for slightly over 30% above the May limits. I would be ahead of the game if all of my last May coyotes had been Bought Back.

A lot of the coyotes from the state sales and the traveling buyers will be on the next sales, quality might go down a little. Hope it stays strong.

Those thoughts have pretty much crossed my mind I have been blessed with a local buyer for years and it's been a outstanding relationship.
It's been a good year for all coyote trappers so far imo I believe all stated can have its effect .
I believe grades will tighten next sale

ttt

Coyote won't be in fashion forever. Get 'em while price exceeds expense.