old hudson bay piece

anyone know what this is

If it is real it is a token given out by the Hudson Bay Trading Co. Value equal to one beaver pelt.

what year is it an what value does anyone know

ill trade ya a beaver pelt for it

I'm quite sure pre 1900s

It looks real but these days you never know.

I know a guy that has a nice collection of all kinds of those fur tokens,and a bunch of other stuff from the old days of the fur trade.

I remember reading somewhere that before the 'official' HB Beaver made tokens were produced out of brass (in 1, 1/2, 1/4, and 1/8 made beaver values), there were tokens made of wood, bone, and other metals. Might this be one of those? Real interesting, whatever it is, and I look forward to someone's definitive answer. Cool...

Jack

it was bought at auction with these three traps

From what I have seen looking it up on google, it is pre 1850's, the only example of one similar to yours I found on Pinterest but it has 2 cartouches/trademarks above the beavers head and tail, some of the best condition pieces on eBay are very spendy and I imagine they are more rare examples because one was around 2700.00 and a few other of the minted tokens were around 7-800.00. I am still searching for something closer to your example.

A guy on Pinterest has a set of 3 that look almost identical to yours but I think his are fake, he has them labeled as 1733 hand cast silver trade tokens valued at 65.00, his are way too clean and bright with no patina of any kind and they aren't in packages for protection. I was going to post a link but it looks as though it was taken off Pinterest.



Here are two other links of pictures similar to your token.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/148055906472489899/
http://stores.cafr.ebay.ca/antiquehunts

Tresurenet.com has a sub forum listed as Fur Trade Artifacts .Someone there might have more info about what you have

Be very careful. Those have been copied/reproduced a lot!

Moosetrot

Neat, I want one.

A friend of mine used to cast replicas out of pewter and silver, and with a little "aging" they looked very authentic.

Moosetrot

He would not be a friend of mine doing BS like that if he is selling them with out it having on it "Copy" on it , I am a coin collector and I am sick of all the counter fits being produced of rare coins its not good for the hobby or for an investor.

I think the "copies" on eBay are the ones selling for 42-45 dollars, the real ones fetch far more, on a collecter sales site they were listing some between 400-800.00, on eBay they have some (very few actually) selling in that price range and 1 I saw listed for 2700.00 as I mentioned above, there is a very wide variety of these tokens out there, the earliest versions were pretty crudely made but are interesting for sure.

He was selling them with full disclosure that they were copies and in no way represented them as originals...ever. As one of the most talented silversmiths I ever ran into, he could very well have counterfeited them as originals but he never did.

Edit: Was just talking to my wife about this and she reminded me that virtually every piece he made had his own touchmark cast into them.

He was what I call a good friend until he died of cancer 3 years ago. I still consider him a good friend and miss his friendship and talents a lot.

'Nuff said!????

Moosetrot

That was Quite the Auction... Congrats!

I've got a similar one but pretty sure it's a newer reproduction piece.

Mac

Not high jacking this thread, but I found this book at a junk shop years ago....would like to add some HB pieces to go along with this booklet....

Now somebody find an Oregon territorial beaver gold piece why don't ya? They only minted a small amount and most of those were taken out of circulation when Oregon became a state. My understanding is they think only about 40-50 exist. If you find one you can probably go ahead and quit your day job.

I would like to add something to your interesting thread, Mr. Dahlgren. 10 plus years ago, Pogo, from Pogo Stick anchors company was digging a pad for an outside boiler house on his property in Dubuque, Iowa. His shovel uncovered a flint point along with a strange dirt clod that turned out to be an old oil cloth bag. The bag broke apart in his hand and these 11 Hudson bay beaver tokens fell out of it. I did some art work for him and was able to make a deal for one of them. I took these pics of the group along with some close ups of these little tokens next to a quarter. They all have the signature "HB" logo of the Hudson Bay Company, the number "1", and a figure of a beaver stamped on them. Some have squared off holes in them. Others have rounded holes. After some research, I learned that Dubuque, Iowa was settled by Julien Dubuque, who operated a trading post and lead mine near the town. The trading post was the biggest post south of the southernmost Hudson Bay post in Prairie Du Chien, Wisconsin. I have also learned that when trappers would take pelts to these posts they would often accept these tokens as trade or money, good for 1 trade blanket sized beaver pelt. These tokens were small, easily transported and often strung on sinew necklaces. Most trading posts would recognize them and accept them as legal tender for goods. I have seen many reproductions which are usually bigger, gaudy pieces made from trade silver. Frontiersman traveled light and carrying big tokens or medallions made little sense for the time period. I have also learned that these tokens were sometimes made by melting or smashing a lead rifle ball before being stamped. A couple of Pogo's tokens appear to have been made this way. And they could be made from pewter as well. There are definitely some different materials used in the various Pogo tokens as you can see from the pics. I would welcome any more information folks have on these as well.

Joe Goodman
www.JoeGoodmanPrints.com

PS: I have had several historians (including Tom Parr) from both the North American Trap Collectors Association and from Living History Organizations look at mine with the photos of the overall group. The consensus is that these tokens look "right". If your token is authentic, I would insure it for at least $2,000.

Joe Goodman
www.JoeGoodmanPrints.com

Good golly Joe! Thank you so much for sharing the those pics and narrative! That is about the coolest thing I've seen or heard of in a while!

Out of curiosity, does Pogo know if his property includes the old trading post site? Or perhaps this was a cache at some prominent place?

Awesome input Joe . Very few people today know or realize how important the fur trade industry was to the history of the United States and Canada .Some of your artwork celebrates the historical nature of that time period .Thanks for your info .I find that the history of trapping is one more reason that I enjoy it .

I don't believe Pogo's property is near the trading post. Maybe a member who lives near can shed some light on where it is. I do know that he is near the banks of the Mississippi and at that location the river is at one of its widest points. I am picturing birch bark canoes cutting near the shore, full of prime pelts for trade, with mountain men trappers looking for food, drink, and fun at the "Ren-dez-vous"!

Joe Goodman
www.JoeGoodmanPrints.com

This is a hand forged beaver trap (Hudson Bay circa 1835) that was found along with 5 others in a washed out cache along a small river near where I live. The trap is owned by the late Bob Gilman who was our OTA president for many years.

These kinds of finds are always very exciting to me...kind of a time capsule.

Does anyone know if the Hudson Bay Co. traps were stamped "HB" or anything like that? If so, generally where was the stamp located?

Thanks!

Moosetrot

Was not on this trap, but it was identified as being forged at Ft. Vancouver by the experts.

Cool! Can you imagine what a thrill it would be to find a cache of traps or tokens like those pictured?

Moosetrot

I assume trappers would trade pelts for these tokens and then use them to purchase the items they needed/desired from the HB company store?

Equivalent to company script then?

Mike

This discussion has reminded me that about 30 years ago I picked up some of the lead bale seals used to seal the bales of fur for shipping or whatever. Can't even remember at this point if they had any touchmarks on them or not. Some day, when I dig them out I will post pics.

Moosetrot

Please do Moosetrot!

Mike

yes got all 3 traps an Hudson bay coin for 20 dollar

"When coins were eventually introduced to facilitate the fur trade, they were made-beaver tokens. Minted of brass or stamped out of the copper bindings of kegs shipped to the bay from London, they were imprinted with whatever fraction of a made-beaver they represented and could be spent like cash inside HBC stores. A prime quality beaver usually represented a dozen tokens; a bear skin, twenty. The last tokens were aluminium pieces for use in the white fox trade, issued in the eastern Arctic by the HBC in 1946. The standard fluctuated from time to time and from factory to factory, depending on trading circumstances."
Company of Adventurers
by Peter C Newman

Thanks.

Mike

Trapper Dahlgren-You really scored!!!!!!

Moosetrot

Stopped at Pogo’s today and undoubtedly his wood boiler sits on the exact location of a Native American campsite.

How is the 'ol Possum Tosser!?

I am in a similar situation. The area I live in has a very rich Native American history. My wife was a reporter for the local paper for a while and was interviewing the oldest residents in the area for a story on Native American encampments in the area. She was interviewing one of the oldest residents, and he told her when he was little boy he would go visit the "Indian camp" across the field. She asked where it was exactly and he told her "right across the field, where that yellow house sits." She said "That's my house!" We have an acre lot right along the old Black River.

Our son had an inborn interest in archeology and when he was about 8 we sent him to a weeklong archeology camp at the University. He participated in a dig and came back all pumped up and asked if he could do a dig in the back yard. Of course I said yeah, but did not think he would find anything. We marked off a square meter and took the sod off and away he went with his trowel as I walked back to the house. It wasn't 10 minutes that he came running back to the house with a whole handful of flints chips he had found. I have found some things out here that will remain under my hat at this point.

Love this kind of stuff!

Moosetrot

Looks like one of those grizzled grey bearded trappers of a bygone era. If my eyes only saw in black and white I’d swear it was 1825. He was working on his log home and is doing well.

When I saw that, I went looking to see if I could find one. I did, but it is a reproduction. It just came in the mail today. Yours looks much better than the brand new repro.

Lots of fake tokens out there for the Hudson Bay and a lot of other bay items. Those traps are not that old and guessing it was a gimmick to sell the traps at a higher price.

If I lived back in the day, would have traded furs to HB for this. Instead, had to find a great head and make the handle. The fish appears on the other side too for a good grip.

Very interesting info. You did well at $20. Want to double your money? I’ll pay shipping and send you $50.

Joe - thanks for that expert presentation. I would have dug the entire area. Have you contacted HB historian for more info? At one time they maintained an archive / history department.

Hey if that token came from Fort Albany then it had to pass Boco turf to get south.
Must have been from the spoils of the war when the French attacked Fort Albany in 1709

Fascinating thread!

Very interesting. I had never heard of this.

Or at least store it in a Government-secured vault!