Wi Conservation Congress

Maybe I missed it but has anybody started the annual thread yet regarding the upcoming Congress meeting? Always interesting to see what's up for vote, and what some of the citizen resolutions will be.

No, AJE, I think you are right! Good job!

Moosetrot

There are some trapping related questions coming up. And a cross Bow question.
I'm sure someone can post those questions on here.

I haven't seen the crossbow question, but maybe it will be the hot topic this year.

http://dnr.wi.gov/About/WCC/Documents/spring_hearing/2018/2018SpringQuestionnaire.pdf

Nothing really raised my blood pressure to a dangerous level.

Traditional bow hunters whining that all THEIR bucks are being taken by crossbow hunters. Maybe the gun season should be shortened too after all gun hunters have an advantage over crossbow hunters.

Don't like the first Saturday after Nov. 1 start for mink/muskrat in south but I dislike merry-go-rounds even more. Just hope the park closes at some point

For trappers it May be nice to see some sensible revisions to our colony trap regs.

Do ya think?
But if those of us who use colony traps take too many rats; Is that going to offend the traditional foothold/BG rat trappers?
Kinda like the xbow vs. vertical bow hunters?

LOl

Change and increase size restrictions to say 50 sq inches.
Allow a reasonable fence rule and
What’s wrong with side by side or stacking?

And let us place them In the culverts. Or Is that asking to much?

It never hurts to ask too much. That would be biggest advantage for someone with my limited abilities.

You can already place them side by side. Stacking really isn’t necessary. But I’m not against it.

You can't stack them side by side If It blocks off the water source.

There are two of us up for election this year in Milwaukee county. I'm on the fur harvest committee the other guy is a serious fishing fanatic we will need all the votes we can get.The Green Party is lining up people to run against us they put 2 on last year by car pooling college students and having a pizza party during the meeting. Please consider attending Monday April 9th at 7:00 the voting for delegates is at 7:00 Sharp before the rest of the meeting. Message me if you have questions thanks

Only if it blocks off the entire navigable water. As long as they are not staggered, is not considered fencing. That is the explanation given by Olson.

Guess you've never seen rats go over top of colonies before?

i dont get the so called spring season what the heck kinda date is mach 15th? why dont they just make it end of march south and central dont get that one bit with the rule change all we would get down here is a shorter practical season with the later start to put numbers to it we would loose 7 days for me that would be 378 rats that i wouldnt have caught guess ill just have to get better now i could live with that if we would get an actual spring season but mach 15th aint gonna cut it

The 378 rats are still there with a later start date and are growing.

At least you have open water at the beginning of season. And a latter ending date doesn’t help us any unless it is end of April. We are still froze up with 10” of snow yesterday and much more forecast in next ten days.

the 378 rats will be under ice is what i mean i dont think we should be forced to trap under ice you guys dont want to so why do we have to? and yeah yours should match the northern beaver end of april you can see what im saying if they are gonna have a spring season just have it be useful at least

if they are gonna mess with crap just keep the south alone give the north 2 weeks or whatever early start and have the end go till end of march in the south and end of april up north done none of this central crap

March is the “best” month of the whole season for rattin. imho.....Central WI
October the worst.....followed by February.

PTB, (or other trappers) wanted to trickle this change in. And frankly so do I. Yes it is conservative but a tremendously positive advance. If it passes I hope you all get out a dip a toe...you may just be pleasantly surprised. When you wait for a boat you’re late.

And historically waiting to boat in Stillwater in the Winnebago zone ( March 15) put it this way you got a better chance of drawing a cat tag.

Point being I don’t need a boat just more time. March 3, here ain’t enough. It’s usually just starting to heat up. Ya, it could go longer but it’s a start and I’ll certainly take it. Huge gain for my style of trapping.

I asked Shawn and he told me to ask my warden. Which to me means it’s subject to interpretation. So. Good luck. I backed off, never got ahead arguing with a CO.

Even this type of clarification would be helpful

You go boy! I was happy for you guys when I saw a little later finish.

I am a little confused about the boat statement. I thought those ice skipping, water ripping Carstens poke boats were key for late trapping with green poles?

Anyway, I will continue to prepare for our time.

How many rats this year Nimzy?

It’s March the thaw. March is unpredictable and has a lot of ice, some good some not. Mostly it has awesome rats. The most sensible month for the resource in terms of value. It also offers some excellent opportunities, for those willing to explore. Some of my best catches come in March. Exploit the resource, it’s the duty of a fur trapper. My opinion, for what it’s worth.

This year I started in mid November. Caught about 4K with a helper under ice. The market and I are maturing at different rates lol.

Believe me I totally understand but I’ve heard no talk of extension without delaying the start. Leave the start alone and just end it with beaver.

If the water source Is 12" wide you can't place 2 6X6 colony traps side by side. Because that Is considered guiding. And It dosen't matter If there Is 12" of water flowing over those traps.

Yeah but how many get to trap in the Horicon anyway?

I agree, we all need more time for the best rats, February onward.

i am in agreement will you nimzy its a step in the right direction but why cant we just get what we want? just kinda silly to lose time off the top end to not really gain that much on the back end but oh well i guess ill have to get a horicon spot next season

On the refuge the season doesn’t start till December 1. How many would want to? From most of testimony above it would be a exercise in futility.

Horicon is just another cattail marsh, only bigger and more regulated.

There are only two people who are posting on this thread who can't trap the horicon. Me and Jeremy.

Chris, I want to. Do you know any one who would teach me how?

glad to hear you had a good season to there chris!! was wondering

CA fellas in the south already were asking for a later start date. Your peers wanted it without change to the back. As I stated earlier I started November 15 or 16 this year, so opening day means nothing to me. Well full disclosure, that 3 of 15 years when rats are $8 or higher I did start on the opener

Kelly the CC seems sympathetic to the early freeze north of 64 and implemented an earlier start. I believe they also wrote April 15 close which IMO has greater opportunity then March 15 and 22 has in the south and central. I only hope more trappers take advantage of the possibilities to make even more informed decisions in the future.

Yea but I think it’s almost as expensive as a polar bear hunt lol

That would be true. But honestly, how many 12” wide streams do you trap? Place your colony in the likely travel route with a BG alongside it for the occasional stray.

Or an all inclusive late season ice fishing trip.

Well what about all the pinch points on even wider streams. I can show you all kinds of road side ditches that are choked with weeds and there are tons of narrow pinch points.

You guys sure know how to make me feel bad for screwing up that resolution on colony traps last year. I dusted it off and will be submitting it.

On a side note, I remember reading that the WTA was looking at rules and possible reductions. Wonder what they found?

Oh yeah Beav. I forgot that you are one of those areas ROW trappers.

And you don't drive the ditch banks when trapping rats? You go where the rats are and there are great spots where you can't legally use a colony trap.

I hear you. That’s why the culvert rule sucks for me. All the crossovers on tiled farms that I trap. Those crossovers are the only spots where I can get to the water safely.

Spot on.

I looked through to me it looks like

17, 18 are a NO

19, 20 , 45, 48 I have questions about

33, 49-52 I have mixed feelings on.

17. Do you favor eliminating the group deer hunting law so that the only
person who can fill a tag is the hunter that had been issued the deer
harvest authorization?

17 , we still do deer drives , it really is team deer hunting , I also have more over 60 than under 60 this last season our oldest was 83 youngest 14 in my family so I spend opening weekend doing drives I did not take a deer this year but we took enough deer still a tiny fraction of our total tags. letting others shoot my deer or me to shoot for others in the group I even have some in the group who don't carry a gun but they make drives they are a part of the team. my great Aunt is 83 she loves doing drives as long as her legs will go , she uses ski poles to aid in her walking and no gun between her eyes , arthritis in her hands and need for the ski poles to safety walk carrying a gun is to much for her , but she loves venison.

for me 17 is a hard no and I would appreciate your consideration of this.


18. Do you support the DNR adjusting the length of the crossbow season, for
those that are not disabled or elderly, to better reflect harvest success
rates of bucks similar to the gun season and archery season?

18 gosh first we weren't taking enough deer now the xbowers are taking to many sorry I see the xbow being so good for so many of my relatives who gave up on vertical bow because of messed up shoulders and the cost of getting a disabled permit was not worth it for them I also see it bringing young girls into hunting with a much better chance of success it also reduces the risk of injured deer from a 35 pound vertical bow that was very marginal but was decided on so that younger hunters can participate. sorry vertical bow folks you already get longer season than everyone else archery is archery.



19. Would you support the WCC take a position and encourage legislators
and DNR to support science and market based legislation and rules to
reduce the risk of global warming and increase the use of renewable
energy resources?

20. Would you support water basin management plans to reduce and control
run off as partial mitigation for damage that has already or will occur?

19, 20 What does supporting it mean? the devil is in the details. I can recognize that things have and are changing but what would it mean in changes to support these.



33 Do you support the Conservation Congress working with the legislature
to require all students under the age of 16 to have a minimum of one
field day of hands-on experience in hunter, bowhunter, ATV and boater
safety classes in order to become certified?

33 I found in a little research that hunters education still requires everyone even if they took the online course to have a field day so I am going to say NO on the grounds that they very poorly worded the question , they can reword it addressing only what currently does not need a field day and also if they are requiring it of under 16 I think they should require it of over 16 also , I took boaters safety and snowmobile safety , but I would sure like to see a few of the out of state boaters required to take it before bringing their boat to WI waters.

45. Should the Conservation Congress work with the DNR, NRB and
Wisconsin Legislature to take up the “Saving Wisconsin Pollinators
Act,” and include specific language to ban the use of neonicotinoid
insecticides (dinotefuran, clothianidin, imidacloprid and thiamethoxam)
regardless of application method on all state owned agricultural and
forest lands, and establish limited use guidelines for continued use on
commercial and private agricultural lands?

45 what exactly would this mean for products I might use?

46 make guides show proof of insurance. Insurance for what it is one thing if it is a charter service and your getting on their boat but if you hire a guy to come in your boat and put you on fish 46 is a NO as I see it.


47 make guides show proof of first aid and cpr training , while I think everyone should get trained , they are not there to be your nanny they are there to put you on fish or game. 47 is a NO for me
for a guide who gets in your boat and take you to fish that would be like asking the lady who stands at the front of the bus and tells you about all the sights to each side being required to show proof of first aid and cpr training.

if it was a charter where they were taking you out on their boat then maybe but not until every captain , cab driver , bus diver and uber driver has to also show proof of firstaid and cpr training

lets say I hired Beav to take me out and show me some coyote trapping and cable restraints , should he have to have a guide license , proof of insurance (and for what) , and firstaid + cpr training


48 do I really think someone is making such great money guiding hunting or fishing in WIS that they should pay 84% more for their license to guide. I see this hurting a lot more small part time guides who do it for a little side cash here and there providing a service to people than some full time guide service and how is the way they use resources significantly different than the ways other industries do or pollute causing a equal or greater net loss of resources.now if you had said a 1 dollar an hour tax on guide services or a 5 dollar a day tax on guide services where you would collect money in direct proportion to the services rendered I would be in but this seems like it will not hurt big guides or guide services at all but drive a lot of little guys out. NO

49-52
QUESTIONS 49-52: Permit fees for non-motorized watercraft (080117, 330117) (requires legislation)
In the last ten years, on average, non-motorized watercraft accounted for 33% of boating deaths. Boating
enforcement and investigations are funded by the boating program which does not received funding from
non-motorized watercraft. Registration could help to identify non-motorized watercraft owners when a boat is
found, whether from an accident or at other times. It is believed that 335,000 non-motorized watercraft use
our resource. This is a possible revenue source that should be considered. Many hunters, trappers and
fisherman own a skiff or canoe and may feel this will just be an additional fee. There are also organizations
and individuals that own multiple non-motorized watercraft and feel this could be a financial burden.
Do you support the Legislature and DNR working together to create a registration fee for non-motorized
watercraft, while considering the following options:
49. All non-motorized watercraft should be registered? 49. YES____ NO_____

50. Anyone who purchases a hunting, trapping or fishing license would
receive one non-motorized watercraft permit at no charge? 50. YES____ NO_____

51. Individuals who carry an active hunting, trapping or fishing license
would not require a permit while using a non-motorized watercraft? 51. YES____ NO_____

52. Create a group rate for organizations with multiple non-motorized
watercraft? 52. YES____ NO_____

don't really care for their wording .

if they had approached this question differently as said how should we register and tax non motorized water craft of a for profit enterprise meaning boat rentals I would have been all in from what I could find a good portion of that 33% was rental boats.

but the guy who buys a used row boat to leave at a pond on a farm he hunts to go put out decoys a few times a year not so much.

should a boat be identifiable who owns it , sure I could live with that, put your DNR customer number , or name and address on it like a an Ice shanty perhaps require minimum of 1 inch lettering or offer a one time decal from the state for a minimal cost

do you include inflatable ? inner tubes ? wading boats ? how small do you go ?

they already offer you the option to register your canoe or other non motorized craft.

I guess I am 49 NO , 50 yes ,51 yes , 52 yes but I see organization as boy scouts or kids camps and not necessarily some rental company.

these are the ones I saw , if there are others I should be voting no on bring them up please

I would like to hear your opinions on these if you have one.

#17 - so WHO wants to get rid of deer drives? There's the question.

#33 - so WHO wants to phase out safety instructors? There's another question.

For those of us who have been deer hunting for 40+, 50+ years, these are very different times, aren't they? Why are we even asking if a kid under the age of 16 should show up somewhere and demonstrate if he/she knows how to handle a loaded firearm.

What the hey is going on . . . .

that is the interesting thing I checked even called the DNR today everyone adults included have to go to a field day for hunters ed, so it was like the person writing the question didn't know what they were talking about and lumped hunters ed in with boats and atv.

Gonna share the language, Justin?

I have absolutely no problem with group hunting. Of any species. Whether it would be deer or ducks. Or fishing for that matter.

I don't have it on my phone but I can probably throw it up later. Similar to the last one I typed up that asked that we eliminate the fencing and culvert restrictions on colony traps. A guy on the Wisconsin trappers Facebook page typed it up for me.

Please go there and VOTE!
It is one thing to debate things on T-man, but much more important to be present at the spring hearings and VOTE!!!
We just lost another election in WI, please let's not lose at the spring hearings against the Anti's!
Tell your relatives, bring your friends, have a pizza party, whatever it takes!

It's tonight at 7PM go vote

If you live in WI and are on this thread, April 9 from 7 till 10 PM and are not at the hearing looking at this on your phone, get there and vote !

Will be interesting to see the turnout in Winnebago County with all local questions on the ballot. If the walleye meetings are any clue, it might be standing room only.

Here is the resolution on Colony traps I think I will submit. Anyone that wants to try and submit it in your county, feel free to do so.

Current trapping regulations do not allow for placement of a colony trap within 3 ft. of any
culvert or use in conjunction with any fencing, netting or material placement designed to
channel animals into the trap.

The concern is that current restrictions overly limit the locations to efficiently capture
muskrats. Although muskrats are an important part of native ecosystems their burrowing
and foraging activities can damage agricultural crops, native marshes, waterway banks
and levees.

Furthermore, the neighboring states of Minnesota and Michigan that share similar habitat
do not have similar placement restrictions and have not shown a negative impact on
muskrat populations.

BE IT RESOLVED, that the Conservation Congress work with the Department of Natural
Resources and Natural Resources Board to remove colony trap placement and funneling
restrictions.

I found more data for non motorized craft

2016 and 2017 did see a spike in deaths

4 deaths in 2016 were 4 men 21/21/21/20 who decided to go out on Lake Beulah Mill Pond Walworth , January the 13th and if your wondering was alcohol a factor YES no PDF were worn

others included kayakers on northern lake Michigan in April

https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/boat/fatalitySummary/boat2015.html

https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/boat/fatalitySummary/boat2016.html

https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/boat/fatalitySummary/boatCurrent.html

something I noticed is that in 2015 , 2016 and 2017 none of the victims of any boat death was under 20 years old , alcohol was a factor in many of them and almost none of them were wearing PFD.
A significant number of them in non motorized craft were early enough or late enough that that hypothermia was a significant risk.

notice they got really vague in their reporting in 2017 how is that useful?

one of the things that is sometimes troublesome is that people think they have to check every box Yes or NO , if you don't have an opinion it is OK not to vote for a question

Remember Misleading , poorly worded questions or in some cases outright miss information is par for the Ballot. if you don't understand the question maybe think about not voting on that question.

if a question pertains to someone else's district that you know nothing about also consider you don't have to vote on every question.

my sister in law asked me to share this , a little background although from the language she uses you probably won't have any trouble telling she is a soil and water geek but also unlike many other soil and water geeks her focus is in Agriculture she specializes in the engineering of water and wastewater permitting and handling and helps farms large and small through the process.



or the short answer they just started to apply the findings to the south east they should really find out if it works or they need to make changes before trying to implement it state wide , the south east is much more vulnerable at this time and that is why they are working on it

I thought the question about wolf application deadlines was strange, considering we can't even apply for a wolf tag.

1 comment about my meeting: It used to be less than 10 people showed up at rhe meetings, now the crowd at the Conservation Congress meeting has been incredible the past few years..Keeps growing here.

Here in Marathon county the crowd came in on canes and walkers....PUN.... but not far from it, hardly any people under age of 30 in early stages of meeting. I had to leave early as another meeting scheduled. Now waiting for results... thanks to all who took time to vote...

I felt like the young guy at 40 at our meeting , our new warden offset the age in the room some he looks like he is 16 but probably closer to 25.

we had a few guys in their late 20s early 30s but Grey was certainly the most common hair color.

when do we see results?. we had 1 citizen resolution, and that was to get rid of the hound training season..don't think it went over too well. lol

AJE, what county? I might want to ask if the delegates are doing anything specific to increase attendance.


GCP, we have a new gal warden and she definitely decreased the age as well. I think we had over 160 come through the doors. Colony trap resolution was submitted.

Usually a few days, but the guys are usually pretty quick to get them up here.

Did the Greenies elect anybody?

We have 2 antis on our board here In Dane county. One wasn't up for reelection and the other one got reelected for a 3 year term. He's kind of a fence sitter so I don't think he swings a very big club.

the sad part is if you could get every ice fisherman on Monona bay on a sunny January Saturday to show for conservation congress you could elect any one you wanted to the board.

if you didn't have to put your name and address on a resolution you could propose no ice fishing on Monona bay till after January 15 for fisherman safety, then you would get a turn out.

Beav you're in DANE COUNTY!? I thought just breathing the air out there makes you a half a commie

I see Winnebago County passed question 32 (69-25). I hope the rest of the counties followed suit.

A few of those fellows from here were a big part of putting that question together.

I heard a rumor that If you erase any answer to a question that whole ticket becomes null and void. Any truth to that.

The whole row behind me were young antis and they were erasing some of their answers.

Link to the DNR page with statewide and county by county results

Thanks for posting results Mike.

Brian

Jackson. A number of the people were young too. It's shocking the increase in attendance we've seen. 1 thing that helped is our Wildlife Biologist moved out west 5 years ago. She had a chip on her shoulder and was very antagonistic. Scared some people off. I can't pinpoint the main reason for the increase though.

some people have a problem following instructions , they say do not erase in the ballot instructions mark clear across and if you mess up they had people to destroy your ballot and let you get another

what was odd was I though there more like a 100+ but they say 68 voted , makes me wonder if it is the number of readable ballots or form the sign in

some people , you look at a question like 15 , should trappers be allowed to keep raccoon incidentally caught during the beaver season 58 --- 3 what on earth were those 3 people thinking like we have a raccoon shortage with them not paying anything.

that by the way was the closest thing we had to a unanimous vote with 7 people abstaining.

You'd think erasing would only mess up that 1 spot where someone erases. I can't imagine it would ruin the entire ballot. The pencils they gave us didn't have erasers.

Maybe it was 3 anti trappers Pete.

The anti that's been trying to get on our county's congress must have finally given up. She keeps losing year after year. This year she showed up, but didn't run for the election.

Truly amazing! I would be extremely impressed if the market was up to your standards, I feel you are a 10k kinda guy in the right times!

Hoping you WI trappers see some light at the end of the tunnel with your resolutions.

I have failed, and given up.

Did the results for any question(s) take any of you by surprise?

Yes. I am wondering the reason folks are so against darkhouse spearing. The only thing I know about it is that I would like to try it over here on the River. Does not seem like something that would get voted down by such a large margin. If anyone can enlighten me I would appreciate it.

Moosetrot

Seems as if every time darkhouse spearing is mentioned on the numerous fishing forums I peruse there is support by a few but vehement opposition by a majority. I would like to see a season for northern pike spearing here in Wisconsin but I have no confidence that it will ever be allowed. Best chance would be to travel to North Dakota and hire a guide and experience spearing there.

Chris

Question 32 was approved by about 2900 yes votes and 1200 no votes and won in 67 of the 72 counties. Counties voting no were Lafayette, Juneau, Bayfield, Portage and Taylor.
I was surprised to see how well the no vote did on the crossbow season and how strongly the group hunting was voted in favor for.
Bryce

I was most surprised by the attendance. Statewide, 7000 people showed up to the meeting whereas last year was only 5k.

I was surprised people want to open trout season in early April. DNR would not have time to finish stocking by then. And some ponds may have ice. It would be too cold for a lot of young kids.

Where can I find the results of the unique citizen resolution questions voted on for my county?

Maybe they should open it up on 3-5 bodies of water were they want additional harvest mortality. If biologists want more mortality they should help push a spearing season locally.

The Indians spear muskies during the winter.

Hodag, you don't need to travel so far. We can spear in MN.

If I'm not mistaken the original dark house question came from one of our local wardens here. He wasn't in uniform but got up at the meeting spoke in favor of the spearing. I talked with him for a minute when he was leaving. He don't understand why people don't like it? There was though a guy who got up and talked about lowering northern bag limit. Seemed to think ice fisherman were killing to many big fish with tip ups.. I have heard that same complaint about tip ups with bass fisherman for years.
I'd love to try spearing northerns and would for sure be out there.

Mac

Likely be a little while before those go up. Takes some time for them to scan them all in.

IMO the congress is broke. In Madison (the hub for all things political and the dnr)we have or will be losing our numbers and representation. The congress was created to listen to and serve the sportsman. Like our border security and illegal immigration, the policy not to offend anyone while being political correct has allowed antis to now control the agenda and vote. Sitting congress delegates are advocating on-line voting in order to collect more of the populace from Dane Co. which is all liberal, progressive anti trapping. Look at the first questions in these spring hearings to serve fishing tournaments. Don't know about your county but Dane Co is a joke and these people have the most political power. And no I'm not going to nominate myself. I just wish the congress would go back to serving the average joe but I'm afraid that's not progress.

TrapHuntFish-

Trust that not all delegates are in favor of the online voting. In fact, many of us are fighting it tooth and nail. I am very afraid it will be the end of the Spring Hearings and the Conservation Congress. Call me Chicken Little, but the online voting is the sky that could potentially fall on consumptive users of Wisconsin's resources. It is a battle that has just begun.

Moosetrot

Online Conservation Congress voting would be terrible. I hope that isn't seriously being considered. I don't ever recall hearing any chatter about it at any of our county's annual meetings.

Online is an issue or concern but not much worse than what we are experiencing at the present. Attendance at the hearings is a huge issue. We have 1 million fisher persons and 600-750K of deer hunters with bow and gun along with trappers etc. and we are tickled to see that we have 7,000 attend 72 hearings! We are losing that battle as we speak and the other issue is by having antis being elected and serving on committees what will the questions be in the future? Online will make it easier to vote, not showing up will make it easier for antis to control the questions for the future.

I think we should be fortunate that in many cases the antis don't fully realize how quickly they could change the landscape of the WCC.

Bryce

Good points Bryce.

7k attendees is pretty pathetic really. I try getting others to attend, but most act like they don't care. But then they better not complain. It's ~2 hours a year. I just don't get it.

AJE, if you call your chair of your county, he can get you the results of a specific resolution that was introduced in your county.

I will play the devil. Bring on online voting. Can't come soon enough.

WIMarshRat-I have been a delegate on the Congress for 25 years now, and have seen a lot of things. During the year of the feral cat question folks were being bussed in from other states to vote against the ability of a trapper to legally deal with feral cats. I raised a stink about those folks being allowed to vote on Wisconsin game laws. What I was told by one of the legal folks for the Congress was that the enabling legislation that formed the Conservation Congress as an advisory body to the NRB states that "citizens" are allowed to vote...which includes people from other states. In essence and reality, folks from other states had to be allowed to vote on Wisconsin fish and game, as well as other conservation issues. They will also need to be allowed to vote, and certainly will, in the much easier online platform. That will be the end of a lot of things.

Since the advent of ballots instead of a show of hands at the Spring Hearings, informed votes have become largely a thing of the past. People come in, fill out their ballots, turn them in and leave without hearing any discussion on any topic. Here in La
Crosse County I saw 14 of them turned in prior to the first 5 minutes of the Hearings being completed.

I have been attending the Spring Hearings since the early 80's and have witnessed a lot of great ideas being discussed, voted upon, and even placed into effect after going through the grand process of the Conservation Congress Spring Hearings. I have also heard a lot of folks, like you, calling for online voting for a variety of reasons. Your online voting will spell the end of the essence of the Spring Hearings, the Conservation Congress, and potentially the end of ways of life most of us on Trapperman enjoy.
Call me Chicken Little if you want, but I am going to be fighting against online voting with every means possible.

Moosetrot

In Fond du Lac County they check your drivers license to make sure you’re a resident.

That is for the voting for the delegates, not on the questions.

Moosetrot

True. I did notice a guide advertising darkhouse spearing in Minnesota just west of Superior, WI.

Chris

Moosetrot, thanks for playing along. I am a new delegate. Probably known more for the person that I replaced than anything else.

I was asked if I wanted to join the committee to look at online voting. Really wasn't sold one way or the other, but didn't have the time to commit to in person meetings. I wish I did.

That said, I won't fight something just because it is different or new. I fight something when I know it is bad to the core, not just a few blemishes on the surface.

So what is your #1 concern? Anti's will get a louder voice or people will vote without the info?

I certainly am not fighting the online voting because it "is different or new". Also, much like fruit, if there are blemishes on the surface, chances are there are deeper issues involved and I firmly believe that to be true for the online voting. I really don't have a #1 concern and will not address it in that manner.

The Conservation Congress and Spring Hearings have been a marvelous way for the public of Wisconsin to help conserve and use its natural resources since the 1930's. Part of the essence and dynamic of the Spring Hearings rests in the discussion about the multitude of topics presented by the questions and resolutions. Sometimes, due to the discussions, perspectives and votes are changed. The Spring Hearings are a grand conservation tradition here in Wisconsin, the only state that has such a legislatively-recognized institution of public input. With online voting, all of that will disappear.

We must accept the fact that there are a ton of "citizens" out there that would like nothing better than to end trapping, and most hunting, nationally much less here in Wisconsin. For whatever reason, they, at least those here in Wisconsin, have not realized nor capitalized on the opportunity to do just that in the venue of the Spring Hearings.

It is claimed that we need to go to online voting is that the program/mechanisms for counting the ballots is defunct after this year. This apparently has been a revelation in the last year. I am old and crotchety enough to not entirely take that on face value. I have been chasing this issue around since the convention last year, where I was very vocal about this issue, and am getting very mixed messages from some higher up in the Congress chain than I am.

There have been discussions that votes from out-of-state could most likely be "filtered out" through use of whatever technological voodoo that can be employed. I shudder to think what will happen if we tell groups or individuals that they have the opportunity and right to vote, but their vote will not be counted. The flip side of that ugly coin is that if one group of a certain persuasion can be filtered out, so can folks who have hunting and trapping licenses.

I have also heard that folks are hoping to use the Go Wild system and numbers to delineate who can or cannot vote. At this point, the operators of the Go Wild system have said they will not cooperate with that notion.

My fear is that the online voting will be pushed forward, purportedly as a matter of necessity, but in reality due to creating a more convenient and accessible way for uninformed or misinformed folks to click a few buttons, and direct the uses and conservation of Wisconsin resources into the future. I don't, and will not ever agree that a couple hours investment of time in the beginning of April is too much to ask of those who are concerned about our resources and uses of them here in Wisconsin.

Moosetrot

Moosetrot x2

Why can’t the questions be discussed online in there own forum? Much like we often do here. Voting rights reserved to license holders. Membership has its privileges.
Unfortunately the meetings are often information overload. I skip many questions because I do not participate in the activity. I don’t fish so why should I be privy to changing fishing rules?

MarshRat, I have to be honest. The fact that you said you are in favor of online voting, and then followed it up by saying you are on a committee to discuss online voting... Yikes. I normally REALLY like your posts, but I'm really disturbed by your bizaare view of online voting.

AJE, you might want to read my posts again. I was asked to be on the committee to explore online voting which I had to turn it down. Also did you miss the part of me playing the devil?

Frankly getting less than 10k voting is killing the Conservation Congress way faster than any online voting could IMO.

Moosetrot, you wouldn't have any apple juice, if you only made it out of perfect apples. But let's explore some blemishes to see if we can still make juice?

What has to happen for the department to make a rule change? Simple majority vote?

I have to admit I was somewhat put off by his "thanks for playing along" comment, and chose to not show all the cards that I have concerning this issue. Instead I chose to voice my concerns in an effort and manner to let other folks know what is going on in the Congress.

While I have had a good time for many years while doing a lot of volunteer work for my County and the State, I never consider a matter of this importance as a game of some kind. I think this matter is a tipping point for the future of the Congress and have already dug my feet in quite deeply to resist the Congress being forced to enact something to satisfy those who either choose to not spend a couple hours a year in attendance, or will work their keyboards to a smoke to end our Wisconsin outdoor legacy.

Moosetrot

I was a little surprised by his comment.

I guess it was unclear to me that you turned down that role on the committee. Sorry.
It sounded a bit cocky how you said, "Can't come soon enough." Everyone is entitled to their opinion though.

With only 7k attendees, a discussion on possible improvements isn't a bad idea.

WIMarshRat-

Does it not make you a little skeptical that the Ad Hoc Online Voting Committee that you were asked to be part of has met several times but there are no published minutes of those meetings?

Moosetrot

I wonder who these people are that want online voting? I wonder if their only reasoning is that it may boost the number of votes cast, at least in the short term.

Moosetrot, no disrespect intended. Just trying to have a conversation were we can be critical of ideas. It is what ensure we are making the right decision. I truly do not know which way is right but I will learn far more by playing the devil and trying to defend positions that I may not agree with.

That is one reason I am nervous. I like to think on things and be critical of them before I can get on board.

We have to increase participation. Legislators already have claimed that so few vote that they refuse to listen. See Baiting law that was changed. You can guarantee they are putting pressure on the department to get participation increased.

1 concern I have with online voting is that I think it would be hard to get volunteers to serve on the Congress.

Also: I can only speak for the meeting I attend, but I am impressed with all the discussion we had. It was a busy meeting, with a lot of discussion. Some of the comments from concerned citizens swayed how I voted on certain questions.

Also, I like how a CDAC update is given.

Also, I like how DNR staff are present to answer questions.

Does anyone know if attendance used to be more than 7k?

Sometimes discussions on here get way too long and spin in circles that do nothing but waste time and energy. I have already spent a lot of time on this issue on top of more than a third of my life in involvement on a variety of Congress initiatives and issues. I am very sure there will be more information on this topic at the Convention, if we are actually allowed to discuss it this year.

Moosetrot

And by the time question 32 was read 90% of the Fond du Lac County crowd had left.

That is an issue. Agreed nimzy.

...and had probably voted.

Moosetrot

The CDAC meeting draws very lousy attendance in my county. 2 meetings ago I was literally the only member of the public in attendance. Maybe Wisconsinites don't care anymore, I don't know. It'd be interesting to know if WDNR gets many responses to the online CDAC survey.

In Dane county we had close to 500 persons attend the meeting. About 240 actually voted for the congress members. 200 and some just came to fill out the questioner. They were probably not from Dane county.

Online participation would end up In all kinds of voter fraud. The antis would be all over this In heart beat.

Yep!

Moosetrot

Why is this a problem? Would any of you changed your vote on it based on what was said in the room? I wasn't.

I, too, question how they would keep anti's from taking over.

Here's what I stated above:
"Some of the comments from concerned citizens swayed how I voted on certain questions."
Maybe I'm the exception though. We just really had a lot of good discussion at our meeting. It's a good chance to listen to other viewpoints and learn.
I, along with our WTA county rep, stood up and spoke in support of several of the trapping questions. I would like to think it made a difference.

It is up this year, but still not as high as it should be. He only had a couple folks in my county show up. Here is a link to the public comments.

https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/hunt/documents/DMU-report.pdf

Why is this a problem? Would any of you changed your vote on it based on what was said in the room? I wasn't. [/quote]

Absolutely!!!!! Many times I have changed the way I was going to vote based upon hearing the discussion from someone who actually knew what they are talking about. At least I had the opportunity to hear the discussion to weigh the sides of an issue and vote accordingly.

'Nuff said. G'night.

Moosetrot

I wonder if DNR is pushing for online voting. They'd probably prefer to not have to spend the night at the congress meeting.

AJE, that was directed at Nimzy. Would he change his vote at that point? Both of us were authors of resolutions that lead to question 32. I won't speak for Nimzy, but it would of taken an act of God to change my mind on that question on that night. Is that a bad thing? In reality, wouldn't that be the best case scenario?

It was about our ability to influence others. It’s difficult to do once they leave. I have but one vote

But If they are doing It online you can't influence anyone.
Can you Imagine what a few antis could do with the use of social media. We the consumptive users would be hung out to dry In a heart beat.

X2

Interesting theory. As Nimzy noted, you are already losing your ability to influence at the meeting as the majority have voted by the time the question comes up. Would elections and new resolutions be exception?

But what keeps you from influencing them now before the meeting? Isn't it already happening? Why did so many crossbow supporters show up?

You only need to look at the crossing the rail road track issue here on the west side of the state, to see how online voting would hurt individual counties.
So people are basically lazy and don't take time to go to there county meeting get local input on a topic. Unless there is a hot button issue for them as a individual user. Like us folks here along the river and the rail track issue. Locally big issue for some people, most don't care. It has to be changed at state or national level. People who don't have a local, state or even national concern on a topic. Their not even going to go to a county meeting to see what concerns the locals have on a topic. Pretty sure they'd be more than happy though when the news announces and up coming online vote. To just pop on line and put the finger on a yes or no key.
I used to get pretty bored at the meetings years ago with the round and round talk on some topics, I had no interest in. Dove hunt comes to mind with lots of faces never seen before at our county meeting. Years ago when we had to sit there and raise our hands to vote. You had to wait your turn sit threw all the other BS to get to that one vote you wanted to make. But then people felt intimidated having to raise their hands in a crowd, wait so long to vote. Enter stream lining the vote to paper ballot shorting meeting time, clean things up. Less confrontation..Yes I'll admit I like being able to read ahead and I mark some votes before the discussion has been had. During the old hand votes though I remember seeing people clearly anti's. Vote No on any issue that made things better, easier or added things for outdoor users. Didn't matter the content of discussion pro or con.
In fairness to those folks they were passionate enough to be there and raise their hand have their say. You got to respect that and especially as it applies to a local issue..
I'm probably and odd duck with the voting thing. But I don't always vote on every question. If the locals in some county think they should have a 10 fish limit blue gills on some lake I'm never going to fish. I skip that question let the locals that want or don't want it vote. Not cancel some local persons vote with my yes or no.
Anyway you take the vote online. You lose even more local voice.
When I created the cat fiasco to which Moosetrot got up and spoke on my behalf. While I was hiding in the crowd under death threats. Lot of things became clear to me about this voting thing. When I'd get calls from the media or haters. One thing I'd ask them. Did you read my proposal? Most times answer was no. They only knew they hated me and were against what I proposed.. Even though they had no idea what that was..
I had made my proposal and had it voted down I believe twice, at the local level with crowd laughing. That was at least two years I messed with it and I'm not sure that was two years in a row I don't recall now. When I proposed it the second time and the vote was again a no. The local district warden supervisor talked with me about approaching the subject differently. The next year I wrote it the way he suggested and the vote passed locally without a giggle... Bring it state wide the next year.
Take the vote on line..never would have brought that issue to light. It died and really was a mess for me personally. But I can say I've seen change in how the subject of feral cats is looked at nation wide.
So for me I would never want conservation congress vote to go on line. I wouldn't mind they went back to raise your hand be counted. Dip your finger in the purple dye so you can't vote twice.
I do recall one of the wardens telling me many years ago. If the anti's every got organized enough they could take over and control those meetings. I even heard anti's at meetings stand up and complain they had no voice there they were out numbered..
Give them online voting probably be just that voice, numbers, Control they want.

JMTCW

Mac

X2 [/

XXX3quote]

on question 32, guys I talked to don't want southern trappers up here hammering away before their season, and after their season

Why do you think we went to the statewide season? Not that I agree.

Greed

Pushed by the same individual that made a cluster#&$@ out of our colony trap regs.

Do we really need to beat this dead horse some more?

As stated before we had a lot of persons vote and hand in their ballots before the meeting started. We had a nomination from the floor for a candidate to fill a 2-year seat on the county congress. He nominated himself so that gives us some insight as to the interest. We also had a resolution that 10 terms would be the limit any one could serve. We will see where that goes.
Several of the persons voting early and leaving were voting for or against the crossbow resolution and group hunting.
As to question 32 I was involved in getting this to the hearings. I can see the issue people have regarding those that don't reside in an area coming up to harvest wildlife, but we do that with deer, bobcats, wolves, bear etc. etc. and our dollars are welcomed but oh no you can't have a $2.50 muskrat those are ours.

I live in an area that was in the central region and have trapped in the northern region not far from where I own property. The fact that we create 3 zones can be an issue, but in reality for me I have 12-16 more ice free days where I live than say Park Falls WI. All my rat line in my area is private so I can trap for a week or 10 days up north under the current law and not lose much if any open water in the south and I have actually better ice with less snow for later season. So if we don't return to a 3 zone season it won't change things as much as many think. If one wants to trap up north it is more a decision for me to enjoy a different experience and not catch a ton of high value rats.

Bryce

I haven't trapped up north. Do the rats get smaller the further north in the state a person goes, or is it just that they don't have as nice of a pelt? Im in central Wi. I was telling a guy from southern Wi that I sometimes use 110s instead of 159s, and he looked at me like I was kinda crazy.

How bout during “ their “ season?

The general consensus is that northern WI rats are smaller, thinner skinned or pelted and yes many are caught earlier as well. I think the real testimony regarding the quality of northern WI rats was a couple of years ago GWF put out on their route promos they would not take northern WI rats in the round or not put up. Now the huge question is what and where do "northern rats come from? I think the biggest reason from my experience is that in the north rat habitat is more sedge, bullrush and other northern WI plant food and not cattails nearly as much. Less food and lower quality. I don't know about genetic differences.

Bryce

apparently not driving south to their cabin once they're froze out up here

I am not sure what you consider as a northern Wisconsin rat Bryce, but the muskrat I catch here in Rhinelander seemed as heavy furred and thick skinned as any muskrat I have caught or seen throughout this country that I have traveled and trapped for the past 40 years! I can name a lot of areas that the rats look a lot thinner skinned. Smaller rats too? I will compare rats with anybody that wants to compare and I will bet size wise the rats up here in northern Wisconsin are as big or bigger! Are you familiar with Bergmans law? You seem to paint with a pretty broad brush!

Chris

Some interesting points raised.

I was thinking about Bryce's comment about when GWF put that disclaimer on their website. They know what they are doing so I figured they must've had a good reason for posting that about selling in the round. Hmmm.

That is why I asked the question what is a northern WI rat. Ask GWF they were the ones that made the statement. I am sure they have a better answer than I do.

Bryce

Northern WI rats are just like ND rats they both have thin leather. And When trapping In Oct In northern WI your trapping a whole bunch of young of the year rats that haven't matured yet. It takes some time for a young of the year rat to make some leather. And It also has a lot to do with the habitant they are taken from.
Your best rats are those that are taken just after the ice goes out. or the ones taken through the Ice late In the season.

Yes very familiar with Bergman's Law as it was part of my ecology studies, but I have some experience in catching, sorting and shipping northern rats versus my central rats and some more southern rats as well as pond, river, marsh, slough etc.
I have some places where my average rats size runs bigger but it is on my river line where there are fewer rats and many fewer younger rats which I attribute to higher levels of natural loss as there is much more edge area per acreage of cover than in larger bodies of water or very large marshes.

Bryce

Bergmanns law doesn’t apply to rodents

If you think about it they are generally born later and harvested sooner. So fall rats would likely be inferior. Spring time gives them a chance to catch up.

What source do you have for that statement? In the college I graduated from we specifically studied the relationship between warm blooded mammals from multiple species both in northern climates and down in southern climates. Direct correlation with body size noted with rodents as well!
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Bergmann%27s_rule

Chris

Experience

Here in wi southern marsh rats will be larger and average more than up north rats. Beaver ( yoy) in southern wi generally run a few pounds heavier too. The way it is. If you don’t believe me ask any fur buyer that has experience with both. Your mink run smaller too overall. Even smaller in the UP. Well furred tho.
This is a generalization, I’m sure there is isolated pockets that break the trend.
Bergmanns is just another wild things rule that is broken.

Hodag, I'm approximately 2.3 degrees latitude north of you, 4 degrees north of the Horicon. A degree of latitude is approximately 69 miles. I've caught quite a few rats from the Canadian border of MN to the Iowa border, most of them in winter.

Now what's my point you ask? Bergman rule doesn't apply to muskrats!

Correction <aquatic rodents> Perhaps wintering in a controlled environment is notable?

As my “experience” is limited to this.
I am a firm believer that muskrat size is a direct result on the quality of their diet. Diet also influences reproduction. However diet is only one piece of a delicate puzzle that makes a muskrat(s).

Rats and beaver is all diet quality and quantity.

Our river rats are the biggest for me where they are in the corn, soybeans and freshwater mussels.

https://dnr.wi.gov/About/WCC/Documents/spring_hearing/2018/2018%20ResolutionsCounty.pdf

all I've got to say is look at Dane County.....sportsmen down there better get their crap together....they are the leading front to ANTI's

Why was End trapping on public lands voted on twice in Dane County

Probably submitted by 2 different people. I don’t think that one will get far in the fur harvest committee

look at all those anti resolutions.....they are putting in real effort...they want Wisconsin to be like Commiefornia

Madison is 80 square miles surrounded by reality.

In Dane county Patricia Randolph stood at the front door handing out information on how to vote.

Beav
Even during my cat fiasco with national attention the anti's couldn't get enough people to those meetings to vote it down. Then couple months later I got a call from guy at the Conservation Congress telling me they were doing me a favor by tabling the proposal. Take the heat off me he said.. plus political pressure was such no politician would touch. Governor Doyle was another person admitted he hadn't read it but wouldn't support it. Tabling it was no help to me I already had took a big hit. Higher up's and Politician whoosed out.
I wonder what Walker or Trump would have said about it??


Mac

is that how they arrived at the new name for a cat " all other mammals specifically not mentioned "

GREENCOUNTYPETE
I'm not sure what to what your referring? With my proposal I was asking the state for clarification or a definition. It really was pretty simple. As far as I know things remain the same. SSS

Mac

Yep Mark i think your right, till someone gets brought up on SSS. One just came up on news two days ago in WI.

RdFx
Some one got in trouble for Smiling, Say, Sorry!

Mac

I read the results today for County resolutions. Dane Co stuck out like a sore thumb. I was going to come on here tonight and make that comment, but I see you beat me to it.
Good grief, what is wrong with those Dane County voters...
Beav, couldn't you be the diplomat in the room?
Yikes.

Those that fill out the questioner don't come Into the room. They are brought In by the antis and told how to vote. Most of them may not even live In Dane county. But they still have the right to fill out the questioner.

You have to give them credit they are true to their Ideals. I can't say that for the Hunters trappers and fishermen In Dane county.

You can't get up and preach a sermon you can only speak to the question.

Now she will probably just tell her friends to vote online. I saw in the Wi Outdoor News(paper) today that Conservation Congress is starting the option for online voting with the '19 Spring hearing. I have concerns. The article said people on the west coast, DC, or even Paris will b able to vote. I can't imagine why the state would let a foreigner vote. PETA will probably send the link to their members. I realize only ~7k people voted last year, which is pathetic.
Not much incentive to attend the meeting anymore. I think it will lead to some counties having trouble filling all their seats on the congress's board.

One Monday night a year, just one. Oh the excuses. Same lame excuses made for not attending WTA meetings.

In less than 20 years the leadership and backbone of the CC will be gone. Probably closer to ten years.

Replaced by what?

Wisconsin sure isn't what it used to be.

Muskrat I've come to believe that is why us humans all have a (Use by Date).. Just not meant to deal with the never ending changes..

Mac

Think about this: The issues involved were important enough to the 7K people that they took the time and effort to vote. Those who didn't vote have to (or had already decided to) live with the results, or they had no interest in the issue(s). As long as WI outdoorsmen and women show up as the majority the issues will be decided as they should be, that is, consumptive users voting on consumptive use. The anti's do not want consumptive use and will vote to stop it in any manner, regardless of the economic or social consequences.

Experience has shown me that the anti's really are a minority (albeit a vocal one)who rely on emotional appeals and rhetoric to advance their personal or corporate agenda (think of any of the national anti organizations). Most people really don't care one way or the other and are willing to leave others be.

Online voting will allow anyone from anywhere to vote and end the effectiveness and purpose of the WI CC. Attendance by WI sportsmen is critical to maintaining their representation. Once you have that taken away it is nearly impossible to get back. Just ask a trapper from one of the states who has lost their trapping.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/host.madiso...005565.amp.html

I was reading about the lady Beav mentioned. Yikes. Hope she doesn't have an email list.

How can people from anywhere vote on WI conservation issues?

Wouldn’t you have to log on with a member ID? Like your dnr number? If you carry a license you should have the right to vote?

Anyone can get a DNR customer number. Residents, non-residents, and even antis. You don’t need to purchase a license to get it. One should @ least have to prove residency.

Yep, now you see why I'm so angry about the way they've set up the online vote.

Don't get the cart before the horse just yet. This online voting thing has not yet happened.
I thought when that question was brought up It was voted down In the state wide vote.

It appears it has indeed happened, Beav:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.jsonline.com/amp/612759002

Note the key term here. From the above link to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel:

"The online survey will be conducted through a DNR license. The vendor is SurveyMonkey."